Because as mentioned numerous times, mosaiced games don’t sell. It’s hard to believe, but the majority of people I’ve talked to, that aren’t hardcore fans, say that mosaics are a deal-killer for them, regardless of the type of eroge. That’s the audience JAST and Mangagamer are dealing with. They want their porn uncensored, or they won’t buy it. So there you go.
It would be nice if the fan base can evolve beyond the playing-eroge-for-only-the-porn aspect, but there’s so much inertia from the entire past history of eroge released in English. Also, with regards to presenting the question of whether they would buy something with mosaics or not, it depends on how you word the question. If you offer them the question: “Would you either buy a game with mosaics or a game without mosaics?” then people would more likely pick the second choice, even if they wouldn’t mind a game with mosaics. If you offer them the question: “Would you buy this game without mosaics or never play it at all?” then I think you might get different answers. Granted, some people are just adamant about their choices and I respect that, but as long as there’s the chance of an unmosaiced version if people say no to mosaics, people are generally going to say no to mosaics.
I suppose I must admit I am in the minority then. The only thing that I can say is that a truly big title, that had been popularized from anime, has never came to America with or without the mosaics as of yet. Not talking about Discipline or whatever, but the big title dramas that everyone hypes their anime adaptions so much.
Right now it seems the niche is controlled by the fetish types, but there would be a lot of potential new customers if deals could be made to bring the dramas over. I’d doubt that type of audience would mind mosaic or not given the choice of with or not at all, but we’d never know at this rate. I just don’t see people saying they aren’t buying titles I have in mind because it is the exact same as the Japanese release with mosaics. There isn’t even an option to see the big titles in their all ages versions as of yet, but I’d figured people would be happy with that if the current base, who is the most vocal, weren’t against it. I don’t suppose many of them played the DVD game, Phantom of Inferno, for that very reason.
The current “base” isn’t represented by this message board. The majority of eroge purchasers likely don’t even frequent message boards like this. They might frequent a blog or two every so often, just to check what’s happening. But in all, they probably hardly talk about their hobby, online or offline. It’s not exactly a fashionable thing to talk about, even amongst fellow anime fans. Many people are quite ashamed of the hobby, actually (a friend of mine forbids me to so much as mention the topic in the presence of others). You can’t rely on such people to voice their opinions, because they won’t (although others have remarked that I have a bizarre talent for ensnaring such people). All you can do is watch where the dollars flow.
While we have a nice little community here, we’re not typical eroge fans. We’re merely a vocal minority amongst a silent majority. Ironically, you’d probably have more luck uncovering the true nature of your average eroge fan on a pirate site.
As for big name titles–Shuffle’s a pretty big name. It’s not Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, but it’s up there. It IS Mangagamer’s best selling title. Despite that, it doesn’t seem to have made much of splash. Koihime Musou is also pretty well known. Maybe the gameplay element will help to popularize it a bit more.
Neither of those are examples of “sophisticated” eroge. Sengoku Rance is supposed to be ridiculous. That’s half the appeal. Princess Waltz, while a good game in its own right, is not defined by stellar storytelling. It’s a game that goes for broad appeal with a lighthearted, more action-oriented storyline with good production values.
A few examples of English eroge with very good story: Eien no Aselia, Kana Little Sister, Crescendo. I’m pretty sure at least one of those would appeal to you (if only because Eien no Aselia has great gameplay). Fate Stay/Night is also really good, but the protagonist is exactly the classical misogynist you seem to hate (though he’s repeatedly chided for it). There’s numerous other games that I haven’t played that would likely qualify as well.
I knew I’d be mistaken somewhere. While I technically count a few of their titles as popular we’d probably admit they aren’t of Key’s or an equivalent’s level. I forgot about MangaGamer because I don’t frequent them.
I forgot that everything from everyone is in their opinion and I should take a lesson from TheShady and apologize and say I don’t mean to insult anyone. I just like a different type of game and would prefer JAST to branch more in that direction without losing fans of other styles. Thankfully, an adventure title is coming from the glorious Nitro+ amongst the more explicit titles, so I am satisfied either way and even without it JAST has offered plenty of dramas to suit my needs. I’m just saying if the dramas had mosaics I doubt I’d like them any less.
Tenkuu no Yumina is probably the game you were mentioning. I technically don’t really care for VN with true gameplay, but I am keeping an eye on it. It just seems really charming.
People really should give mangagamer a try. Anything to help build the industry…to be honest I’ve liked a majority of their games more than jast (with a few exceptions). As long as you ignore “tasty shafts” (unless you like male twins and one girl…not fan of) and “suck my dick or die” (I’m sure I could find something to say about this but I’ll let the reputation speak for itself…on the flipside though you could argue that it is an example of human nature when they do not have laws dictating action)
Erogamer may have tried to apologize for insulting anyone but I believe a valid point has been made. Without any real success titles that have come from story driven titles how is Jast supposed to know what the majority likes? The only real story title that they’ve released in Princess Waltz, Family Project, and Figures of Happiness. Princess Waltz probably did not sell that well because of bad reviews and the fact that people though they were getting one thing and then found out that lo and behold hardly any gameplay and a rather meh story. Figures of Happiness came before and considering it was (and possibly still is) one of the most expensive games when released, the fact that the art style may have turned people away, and the fact that many people simply forget its existence all factor in for that not selling well. Jast did not have very good advertising for this game and many fans did not even know of Jast when it was released. It does not help that people call it boring at times (which to be honest it can be). The only real story oriented title that Jast has released is Family Project and there is a very specific reason why that did not sell. The whole censorship thing was a big hit for them (did they let people keep the game and return their money?) For one many people that would have bought the game upon seeing that it was censored either did not buy it or returned it. There is also the factor that the release of the game had flaws in translation. Lots of them and some elitists (for lack of better word) would not have bought it because of that.
To say that jast’s sex-romp titles sell more is misusing the information. Jast has never had a perfect release for a story-oriented game. Until they do I don’t think it is fare to say that sex-romps sell better. Let’s wait and see when they release a story oriented title without any problems (translation, censoring, advertising, etc…).
Then we have the games that do not fit into either category. The half-ways between the story and sex titles. I’m going to go ahead and say that YMK falls under this category. Easily my favorite visual novel release yet but plagued with problems. I believe this was one of their first of this type of game and I’m not sure how sales went. I’d also throw downhill night series into this category along with chains: lost footprints. I do not believe these to be fully sex-romp games whereas many of the others are. These games have story and not a sagara family or pick me honey type of “story”. They actually have more plot. I would also place Doushin with these halfway titles while a title like x-change would be a sex-romp-ish title. Jast has made more of these halfway titles and sex-romp titles than anything else so it is only natural that they would sell the best.
Next we have the gameplay titles whose main focus is gameplay. Raidy, sengoku rance (for those who have a legit copy), raidy II, brave soul, secret wives club, and the upcoming Tenkuu no Yumina. These titles are special in their own right because they can be a part of any of the three previous titles and still are appealing. I wouldn’t be surprised if these are the most popular titles for jast right now and this is because of the western mindset. Westerners like myself are used to console games with gameplay being the focal point. So these games are appealing to us. Even if the games suck the fact that they may be something familiar will make us more interested in them. Personally I’m just a fan of monster girls which is why I bought raidy. Others bought it because of the sex? I think it has more to do with the fact you wonder around and find and unclothe monster girls. I could be wrong. Either way the gameplay is the appealing factor not necessarily the sex. Westerners will become confused on why they like it and say it is because of the sex when it is the gameplay that is probably what they really like. Although the ero part is a part of the gameplay so maybe this whole paragraph should be ignored.
Money is another issue why it is unfair to say that the sex-romp or middle games, or even gameplay games make more. The aforementioned sex-romp and in-between games are usually cheaper than gameplay or story games. Cheaper to buy for the consumer, less time and money to make for the company, and they’ve been around longer. This all factors in.
Do not fail to take in account that some people have never actually played a story oriented game so do not yet have an opinion on them (same with the others). We can not base what is more popular simply because of what is supposedly sold. Hell there are gems in every category even the sex-romp that are appealing and to say that all of one genre of game is either good or bad is not taking into all accounts.
Finally though we have the sales being misrepresented because of loyal fans. I would consider calling myself a loyal fan and even though I may hate the concept or not care for a particular game I realize that if the industry is to succeed they need to be seen making a profit. As such I buy everything regardless. If I were to just buy the few titles I think were appealing I’d have maybe 5 games total and would be disappointed with two of them.
Now if you’ve actually bothered to read all that kudos to you. This is just me replying to the idea that just because the popularity of a specific game may seem high it does not mean that other factors are not in place that cause it to be so. Whether you like story, sex-romp, middle, gameplay the end result is that we often still end up buying them even if they are bad simply because we wish for this industry to live.
I disagree with one TheShady and believe that only represents his(her?) personal opinion. I’m a western gamer and like I’m sure many others are (shouldn’t we all be?) they may prefer something different. Some people like a vast assortment. TheShady even said how he(she) has only really tried the sex-romp or gameplay games with the one exception being a pretty storywise game. Even that had gameplay in it. So by his(her) own account he has never really played a good story-oriented game (from the information gathered above only).
He(she) also mentioned a comparison to western literature and japanese literature but considering one most often does not understand let alone read a book in a different language I do not see how this could compare in the slightest. Very few can understand and read japanese. Even the translated books from japan (of which there is relatively few…because all countries are bias to their own) are often not read because they do not understand the culture. Hell how many people even know the names of these foreign literature? Tales of Genj ring a bell…how many have actually read it. This is not a matter of liking a specific type of thing this is a matter of experience. If you’ve never experienced " " then how can you know you like it or dislike it or like something better over the other when you’ve never experienced “the other?”
You also use harvest moon for an example of a story-oriented eroge…fail. Those are made for kids of course it’s going to have some sappy moral like “family values” or some shit like that. (mind you I’ve never played a harvest moon game so I can’t say how it is)
In regards to the mosaics though it really does depend on the game. For a sex-romp or even in-between game the uncensored artwork is the greatest appeal. It doesn’t really have anything without it. For titles with plot and story however the artwork and sex is not the greatest appeal it is the story. So if those happen to get censored it is not a huge loss. Because people are liking those games because of the story not the cgs. Then again there are a number of people that believe in freedom of speech and expression and refuse to have anything not uncensored. they exist…I’m one of them but considering the story games are for story not sex it isn’t as big a deal to me.
Demonbane though should be interesting to see the results of. The game is an adventure story-heavy game with a lot of “weird” sex in it. I predict it will probably be Jast’s number one seller…unless people are completely disgusted by tentacles (which is more than you’d think) and they refuse to buy the game as a result…or if it is censored.
In the end though I hope no one is greatly offended I was trying to merely make a point. hope it worked…yes I can easily be picked apart but I’m exhausted and haven’t slept in three days so forgive me if I sound odf.
But they’ve carried most of the games that have ever been released in English in their store. This includes a number of story-oriented titles you haven’t listed here. I’m quite sure they have a very good idea of what sells and what doesn’t. They’ve said before that a two-pronged lineup has been a successful approach: selling story-oriented titles alongside ero-oriented ones. I imagine this is a successful strategy for a couple reasons; it keeps the regulars like us coming back, who otherwise would drift away if we’re not galvanized every so often with a good story-oriented title (these regulars are then likely to buy up other games). Second, the ero-focused games act like candy at a grocery store counter–they prompt impulse buys from those who were originally just interested in story-oriented titles. They’ve also said that their most successful titles are those that tap an uncommon or unfulfilled niche–titles like Cosplay Fetish Academy, and dare I say, Water Closet?
I sure doubt they keep story-oriented titles around for their standalone profit. These titles take much more effort to localize (i.e., money) and seem to sell comparably (or worse) to ero-focused titles. I bet the press they get also plays a role–while ero-focused games are unlikely to get much attention, story-focused games can prompt an article in some of the niche anime/gaming blogs. These attract customers that then begin eyeing the ero-focused games, and the cycle continues.
I wasn’t going to comment, but this kind of statement is rather irritating, and this same misguided notion of cultural superiority pervades your entire commentary. First of all, compare apples and apples (not Japanese visual novels to Western classics). Compare eroge, and visual novels, to the typical fare you see in Western gaming stores. I think visual novels compare pretty well story-wise to games like Grand Theft Auto and Halo, which have seized mass appeal over here. Compare Japanese manga to American comics–I’m pretty sure manga comes ahead there as more sophisticated.
Now consider what standards each culture judges a story by. Western cultures are obsessed with realism. Go into a fiction writing class, and that’s the first thing they grill into you–your characters have to be realistic. I, on the other hand, view this as a self-limiting flaw. If your story has to fit within the box of “reality”, you’ve inherently limited the story you can tell. What’s the point of reading a story anyway? For me, it’s certainly not for a dose of reality. In addition, when you waste most of your energy trying to be realistic, the work is bound to suffer in other areas. I don’t claim to know what the Japanese value (if anything, I’d say illustrating a moral or theme), but they’re certainly less obsessed with being realistic. Is that a flaw? It’s in the eye of the beholder. It’s akin to whether you prefer the realistic graphics of a game like Fallout 3, or the adorable art of a game like Atelier Totori. Maybe some people are tired of reality. Maybe some people would prefer that people stop judging their taste in art as if it reflected their real life attitudes. Because reasonable adults are simply incapable of treating women appropriately after playing silly misogynist anime games, right?
It’s clear you hate moe. Well, congratulations, you won’t like 90% of Japanese anime culture. I love it. Western entertainment bores me. It’s too commonplace, too predictable. The humor, particularly the bawdy kind, just makes me groan. I go to anime for something different. If I’d been born in Japan, I’d likely be into Western culture. Hate on moe all you want; just don’t pretend that doing so somehow makes you some sort of champion of women’s rights. Many people are actually capable of distinguishing fantasy and reality, and do not develop a distorted perception of reality just because they enjoy unrealistic or surrealistic entertainment. I think this is something Westerners (particularly Americans) need to be reminded of from time and time, given the pointless debacles that often erupt over such issues.
Who’s to say, when someone plays a game and can’t stomach the inconsistencies with reality, that the flaw is with game rather than the player? Is it the game’s fault for not matching the player’s expectations of reality, or is it the player’s fault for being too closed-minded? With whom lies the fault when a player expects a game to be something it was never meant to be?
Proof this poster is kidding with you all. YHBT!
Trolls tend to refrain from belaboring the obvious in favor of saying something ludicrous and contentious. I should know.
Well, this topic has certainly wandered way off the purpose for which it was originally made. :o
I am curious TheShady, do you enjoy James Bond films (especially the old ones)? I find them equally simplistic, clichÈ, and (particularly the old ones) misogynistic. However, that doesn’t affect my enjoyment of them. In fact, I dare say I probably wouldn’t enjoy them if they weren’t this way. Bond films and eroge serve a similar function: they both satisfy common male fantasies. Bond films are where a guy can dream of being able to bed pretty much any woman he wants, and do pretty much anything he pleases. Eroge often features a similar theme of being “what a girl needs”, and replaces the “do anything you please” part with having a relationship that is easy to understand. I don’t know about you, but the idea of having a relationship that is easy to understand is quite nice, especially with what I’ve personally experienced in my past.
While I won’t disagree with many eroge being this way, the idea of simplifying something like Subarashiki Hibi or Pandora no Yume down to something made to appeal to male escapist fantasies is just ridiculous.
People read eroge for different reasons. I read eroge for many different reasons myself. I read them for the humour, for the thrill, for the emotions – and yes, for serious literary value. Eroge isn’t a genre, it’s a medium, and there’s something for literally everyone. Saying that eroges can’t have good stories is no different to saying books can’t have good stories, films can’t have good stories etc. It’s ridiculous, patently ridiculous.
Well, when they did that, it was a pretty terrible way to do it. They released a “limited edition” that was still mosaiced, but in English. This was because they weren’t done uncensoring the images yet, so they decided to do a test.
The problem was, shortly afterward, they released the fully uncensored version. At which point, sales of the LE version collapsed so hard they had to mark them down to like $5 years after the fact just to get rid of them. I got one of these LE discs myself, and never minded. (My only complaint with my copy is that it was a bad burn, and the disc is now dead from CRC errors.) But honestly, there was only a few weeks (maybe 2 months) between the release of the two versions – and everyone knew that the uncensored release had to be just around the corner.
Under the circumstances, I don’t think it was a very good “test case” - the result was obviously going to be sales of the censored release would be middling (people would just wait) and then stop entirely. (Which is what happened, that one pressing of LE discs took years to finally sell thru.)
It’d be hard to tell definitively in any case: witness PP’s yaoi experiment. The two titles didn’t do as well as hoped - is that because the market isn’t there, or did PP pick poor test games occupying a similar niche within yaoi? The only sure way to tell would be release more yaoi games, different from the first two (preferably also from each other) and see if any were successful. Problem is, that’s putting a lot more money on the line chasing something you already think might be a money pit. Many companies have gotten into serious trouble throwing good money after bad.
I think this hits on a very good point. It may not really be a choice between accepting a big title with mosaics, or not getting it. Instead, the choice may be between big title A, and big title B. So the mosaics issue becomes a reason to pass on game A, and look at game B instead. As B173 M3 pointed out, there are 80 titles over the past 10 years in English, compared to 10K in Japan. Given these numbers, if a title has roadblocks, then they can (and apparently do) simply move on to another one that doesn’t have those roadblocks.
Water Closet was in print for a surprisingly long time, and this is (apparently) the exact reason why. There literally is nothing else out there like it, and it’s so far out there they’d get copies of it sold at cons just because people found it intriguing.
(Similarly there’s a vintner label out there that calls itself Fat Bastard. I just had to buy a bottle when I saw it; when I made a comment to the clerk that they probably didn’t sell too many of these, she replied it was actually one of their best sellers. I was surprised, and she said yeah, people usually buy it for the same reason you’re buying a bottle right now. She was pretty sharp 
Good VN in English that you should read:
[list][]Cross†Channel - fan translated, patch available[/]
[]Ever 17 - Out of Infinity - commercial translation, out of print, all-ages[/]
[]Fate/stay night - fan translated, patch available, optional patches for voice and extra CG from PS2 version[/]
[]Kana: Little Sister - commercial translation, non-voiced, classic title[/]
[]Kira Kira - commercial translation, great music[/]
[]Narcissu Side 2nd - fan translation, free download, includes first and second games, all-ages, fairly short[/]
[]Sharin no Kuni, Himawari no Shoujo - fan translated, patch available[/]
[]Swan Song - fan translated, patch available[/][/list]
If I had to pick three to read, I’d go with SWAN SONG, Sharin no Kuni, and either Ever17 or Cross¬ÜChannel.
It’s not necessary to try and turn every sex-romp liking person into a story-eroge liking person. Some people like stories but can’t stand comic books, even though comic books can have good stories. It’s only really worth arguing about when you’ve got a jerk who’s blocking an important avenue (like, say, if the only reason these games weren’t in a bookstore was that some blowhard was arguing they weren’t real stories). Then you need to make that jerk see the light.
But if you don’t like the stories in the games you’ve played and you’d rather just stick wth mindless sex, hey, why not? If you’re trying to play something purely for wank purposes the story gets in the way. (And has been mentioned, for those of us reading hte stories, often the damned sex scenes get in the way. They’re distracting and generally terribly written.)
Knocking all Japanese literature when you don’t know much about it is insane but it’s not my job to change your mind over that either. 
It would be interesting to see how well jlist could do by selling english versions of some of the almost-plotless animated sex games you can get in Japan… because for some people, that’s really all they want.
If J-List could sell Illusion games, in English…their sales would skyrocket. I’m sure of it. At least until the sirens started blaring. There’s a huge demand for that sort of thing that is being (rather unfairly) suppressed. Illusion games are simply huge on the pirate sites. It’s their #1 attraction.
No, you’re missing my point. I can claim that A is better than B, and you can claim that B is better than A. It’s implicit those are just opinions. What you’re doing is claiming moral high ground and using it to say B is morally superior to A. I find that highly irritating. No, if I was simply arguing the opposite of your position, I’d just say you’re shallow and pitiful for being into these games merely for the porn (note the value judgement there). Or I could say you’re a typical American. That, however, is not what I’m arguing.
As soon as you take the “objectification of women” tact, you are insulting someone. Know this. You can dance around it all you want, but you are inherently morally judging something/someone when you say that. When you say that about all eroge in broad generalizations, you’re insulting those who make it, and those who play it. When you say it about an entire culture…you’re just asking to be flamed. Doubly so when you go do it on a message board centered on those topics.
Obviously I don’t agree with your notion of censorship for the “good of society”. You mention 1984. I find that a tad ironic (at least you don’t argue such things should be crimes). I do find it interesting that you assume reasonable adults will get the wrong idea about relationships from playing H-games. I find it disturbing that you think ideas that are incompatible with reality shouldn’t exist. And blaming games like Rapelay for train groping…I’m not sure whether to be amused or depressed. 1) At best, you’re right and there’s some psychopaths out there that really are driven to crime by H-games, and you’re suggesting broad-scale censorship should be enacted to protect everyone from a few fringe lunatics. 2) At worst, you’re completely full of it, and no such connection exists (or perhaps the reverse connection, which is equally plausible). I’d like to see the evidence you have in favor of 1) vs 2). I suspect no such evidence exists, but you are a sociologist after all. Maybe you’ll surprise me.
Of course, my feminist position is that bad information should be fought with good information… The problem with H is not that there’s rape hentai, but that there’s vast overabundance of it in some places which seems to be completely unbalanced by the foreign concept of consensual sex. (Not so much in the games we get translated here, but I don’t know how representative they are of the market as a whole. DLsite certainly is absolutely overwhelmed with rape.)
People do get ideas from porn. People who aren’t horribly damaged can still tell that train molesting and so on is wrong, and aren’t going to think it’s “okay” just because it was in a game, but if this is all they’ve seen it would seem more likely to make them awkward and confused when trying to figure out how to react in a situation with a woman. (And for some of them, to then become frustrated and angry, and relieve their tension with… more rape fantasies. Not really a healthy cycle.) This is entirely speculation but from talking to hentai fans on other, less sophisticated forums, it sounds pretty plausible. They know rape is wrong, but they have NO idea how to talk to girls, and the very concept that females are human and have similar desires and fears to their own comes as a shock to them.