What's GOOD about bishoujo games?

From black and white games on 5¬º- floppy to DVD consoles and beyond… I’ve played countless games as I’ve grown up along side games that have been growing up. And now I’ve “Been there, done that…” Played countless clones with “new features”…

What can be so GOOD about B-games to warrant interest? New experiences. Truly seeing situations that you’ve never seen in a game before, told in ways you haven’t experienced before.
That simple fact is what makes B-games GOOD. A breath of fresh air.

That right there warrants someone taking a chance to try this type of game. Discovering something new in the class of games.

The first part, lets see, read grapes of wrath, of mice and men, all quiet on the western front, Great expectations, Schindlers list or for that matter, if you want say Asian books, the return of condor heroes if you are into romance and fighting the list goes on. Please don’t deliude yourself into thinking that these VN story writers are on the same level as nobel price winner, the list of books that are better then Clannad is so countless it hard to list. That is ofcourse not to say that these VN have bad stories, they are very good, but they’re main foucse is still cute girls hence the name Bishoujo, which means in english: beautiful young girl. Lastly, why do you think that after Clannad, a non adult game, Key all of a sudden decided to release a sequal of sort called Tomoyo After: It’s a Wonderful Life with adult material? Because many key fans were not happy that their sex scenes were cut.

The second part is easy, my answer is life. Or if you want a piece of published material, Thus spoke Zarathustra for Mizuki’s path, too many romance uses drug as a plot device to list, and bullying, go to a real school, or the game bully, the return of Condor heroes where yang guo was bullied extensivly by many people, the list goes on. The game, while good, is hardly ground breaking or revolutionary in terms of plot.

I have, in fact, read all of those (in the first list). Typically, I find I just don’t get the same degree of emotional attachment to characters in books as I do to characters in VNs. And I’ve read a lot of better books than those as well, but VNs still deliver a unique experience, I feel.

That was dumb, really. Having played Dousei, MOON., ONE, Kanon and Air, I could judge myself to be a sort of expert on Key team H scenes… and, really, I’d rather not see more of them. Tomoyo After is not bad at all, in case you’re getting the idea that it’s some sort of sex romp to appease the ero-lovers among Key’s fans- it’s a decent story on its own. However, I don’t think leaving H scenes out of Clannad threatened the quality of the game at all-- Clannad (PS2) is still #1 on erogamescape, after all!

While those characteristics of the plot (bullying, drug use etc.) were catalysts for Yume Miru Kusuri, I didn’t feel they were really what the story was about. And, besides, I felt the way they were tackled, with the parallels to Kouhei’s own home life, were something truly unique. It’s not just about bullying and drug use. -_-

Of course, Also Sprach Zarathustra is still a great read no matter what =P

of course not, those books don’t have pretty pictures or pretty girls for that matter they are not visual, but I believe if they were to put it into visual novel form, those stories would be much better than Clannad or air etc.

Some of course don’t like the H scenes, but I don’t think it’s chance that Key games on PC with the exception of Clannad all had sex in them. I never said that Clannads quality was threatened by the lack of sex, what I am saying is that many were not happy with no sex, I failed to see how PS2 version of Clannad’s rating has anything to do with it since anyone buying that version don’t expect any sex scenes, sony would never allow that.

Like I said, its not a bad game but I think games such as persona 3/fes, Lost Odyssey and espically Xenogears were better in terms of story, self reflections (Kaims 1000 years worth of memories, Fei’s struggle with his Id with fate and with God) or interperseonal relationships: Arisato Minatos interaction with various Sees members and social link characters etc. In certain things YMK goes overboard, IE there was, to me anyways, never a real reason why Mizuki feels nihilistic, usually people become that way because something horrible has happened to them or extreme shock or fought in brutal battles IE Eastern front of WWII. I have never meet a teacher that Kohui described in YMK and I have lived and went to many schools both in Asia and US, as for the druggi, she would have been arrested way before she met the MC in real life,

Yeah that was a fund read though many people seem to misunderstand what the author is really trying to say mainly because they felt insulted by its contents and refuse to read further.

Maybe the overall concept, but that would require a total rewrite by a talented scenario writer, and likely result in quite a bit of changing as far as perspectives go etc., which is basically the same thing as if the visual novel was created from scratch with a good concept in the first place. The point is that the visual novel genre offers this unique form of storytelling. That’s, essentially, my answer to the thread “What’s GOOD about Bishoujo games?”.

Also, Clannad’s story simply could not be told properly in any other medium. It needs to be a visual novel. All you can really get out of thinks like the novel adaptations, the movie and the series is a cross-section of the game, but Clannad is far more multidimensional than that.

The point is that the PS2 version is the same game. If the PS2 version is worthy of that rating, so is the PC version, neither of them with H scenes.

And I stand by my statement that the Key staff working on ONE, Kanon, AIR etc. didn’t write good H scenes, because they hated writing them. It’s one of the trappings associated with the genre, and one I hope they continue to avoid for new releases (Rewrite et. al). I’m also glad that Type-Moon is avoiding H scenes for 2/3 of their new releases as well.

For reference, the appeal to Little Busters! EX is not (just) the added H scenes, but the inclusion of multiple new routes to generally strengthen the game from a storytelling point of view. That’s why I’ll be getting it.

Nietzsche in general seems to get a bit of an undeserved bad rap for reasons that continue to mystify me. I guess when you can pull 2 or 3 quotes out of context that you find offensive or strange, it’s easier to judge the man by those than by what he actually said and meant.

That’s… a truly baffling statement, to the point that it makes me wonder if you properly appreciate either books OR vns. :slight_smile: It’s an entirely different medium and calls for a different approach to storytelling. It’s not just the PLOT that makes a great book… it’s the nuances, and those nuances are no longer operative when you change the medium.

The Brothers Karamazov would not necessarily be a great comic book. Lolita has made two middling-to-okay movies and one apparently terrible musical. For that matter, Carrie also flopped completely as a musical. Gone with the Wind is a classic book and movie but the musical version is getting awful reviews. I could go on a long time listing examples.

Most classic novels would make pretty awful visual novels, IMO. I’m sure some would work, if they were adapted by someone really really good at it.

As for VNs being all about sex and pretty girls… plenty of people make, sell, and buy VNs that don’t include H content. Or girls. Now, it’s true that for people who are buying 18+ games the fact that it’s got adult content is often a pretty strong factor in the decision. :slight_smile: But quite a lot of us will hold up Ever 17 and tell you it’s the best translated game out there, and there’s no H in that. A lot of people here will happily buy H-free games, so long as the game was H-free to begin with rather than censored.

First of all we are talking about Bishoujo games, which by its very name means pretty girls or in Japanese Kanji ? = beauty ??=young girls/young women, you forget that VN is but a sub genere of these type of games, go to getchu.com , look at the games that are lined up for japanese release, you tell me how many of them contain sex scenes and how many of them are considered VN, the truth is, majority of them are not VN games, they are either adv, rpg, simulator etc, so what do most people buy Bishoujo games for? Adult material, whats good about them according to the majority? The only thing that distinguish them from many console dating sims, sex. The supporting fact simply comes from the the lineup, those companies wouldn’t be making these type of sex games if they don’t sell, and since a single month in Japan sees the relase of more Bishoujo games focused on sex then we get in the states (sex non sex combined) in two or three years, the people in japan must find sex a good point in Bishoujo games. Yes I believe that Ever 17 was a great game one of the reasons why I decided to buy it was because I heard the plot was good. BUT, if I were to pull together all my Bishoujo games, english and japanese alike, 95 percent of those will have sex or once had sex and had it removed (EVE burst Error).

As for adaptation, if you look at it, the majority of the adapations that got horrible reviews was because they refused to stick to the original source. Like that Beowulf CG movie, I read the poem many times before watching the moive and the movie sucked, since it decided to do its own thing instead of sticking to the plot. Same with many Romeo and Juliet adaptations, there was a horrible adaptation of Great expectations which decided to put the setting in modern times and completely screw with the characters, the list of boched up adaptations simply because they decided that the books plot is not necessary goes on and on.

Some adaptations have terrible reviews for changing the source badly. Others have terrible reviews for trying to stick to the source even when it wasn’t appropriate. Others have terrible reviews because a lot more goes into a movie than just the writing - if you have a good plot but terrible actors/directors, you have a mess.

(I personally was annoyed about Disney’s ‘Hunchback of Notre Dame’ changing everything that was actually memorable about the book to me, but I just have to treat it as an entirely different work. Their story is not a terrible story, it’s just not the same story, like many of their films… the ending of The Little Mermaid is obviously quite different from the original…)

Oh man, don’t even get me started about Hunchback - “Three chears for Quasimodo!?” They might as well have bukkaked in our faces.

However the change of format is not generally the problem. Lord of the Rings was made in into a movie series that went quite well and an animated trilogy that was quite poor. Despite this, everyone agrees, especially animators, that the series could have been made into a great animated trilogy. So just because a format did not work for a particular product in the past, does not mean it’s bad for that product.

Well, like I said - there’s more than just the story that goes into whether it makes a good movie / animated series / whatever or not. Because the details of how you make it also matter.

I don’t think you can possibly do Lolita as a musical, personally. The key elements of what make the book meaningful simply wouldn’t work out on a theater stage. If you tried to stick to the book you’d have a flop. If you altered the plot drastically you might make a passable musical but it would be very far removed from the source. I think you can do Lolita accurately as a film, but it would probably be considered too disturbing and never pass the censors.

I know, I’m wandering around and losing my point. Um… Some things adapt better than others. I think Lolita would make a better VN than Lord of the Rings would…

Well, the topic of this thread is “What’s GOOD about Bishoujo games?”, but the underlying addendum to the question is how it relates to the presentation of Bishoujo games to a member of the media who may not have had much exposure to the genre. While I agree with your statement that Bishoujo games tend to lean heavily towards having sex scenes, I’m not sure that Peter’s approach to the reporter should be “B-games have tons of sex scenes, lots more than other computer game genres… they’re completely excellent for masturbatory material! (and that’s all they’re really good for.)”

I mean, if sex scenes are the best that b-games can do, then why both spending the money and time to buy and install one and play one, when you can just as easily buy a porn mag or download porn from the Internet. There’s sex scenes in porn too, and they’re easier to “access”, and they’re undoubtedly cheaper to acquire with much more content available. So, why bother with a b-game? There must be something that makes playing a b-game compelling besides just as a repository for sex scenes.

So, I agree with you that b-games heavily lean towards sex scenes. But I’m not in agreement that that’s the sole reason why people play them, since there exists several other, easier means of getting access to sex scenes.

YUME MIRU KUSURI :: A Drug That Makes You Dream: As with most of the games that I play, the first thing that I’m looking for is story and writing and this game provided me with ample in both. Tragedy in ero games is just something that works in my book and this game provided me with absolutely wonderful drama that I really was able to connect with and feel emotionally involved with. The artwork was also very well done with the soft colors, lending an air of realism to the experience.

Snow Sakura: I could not get enough of this game when I first began playing it. Everything about the writing and story within this game are great. Ironically though, it was the story and exposition scenes that really sold this game for me. The subplots between all of the characters were always hilarious and had me laughing all the time while the stories as you pursued the girls were always touching and sweet.

Unfortunately I haven’t played the two enough to have a good opinion on them yet.

The sex is an obvious draw, but for me that’s not what continues to attract me to the genre. All of my favorite games are the ones with a very strong story. Visual novels of this type can offer a strong story in a way that only a video game can do. When someone writes a book, they write a book. Very rarely does someone write a book, then say “Now here’s the same book, except after chapter six Fillipee the Dragon Slayer doesn’t do what she did the first time; instead, we’re going to change the ending to that chapter, then finish the book again, taking this account what has to change”. There have only been a small handful of computer RPGs that even tried to do this with any kind of success. You can’t really get that kind of thing anywhere else, and when done correctly, it makes for a really unique experience.

first off, different people have different requirements/tastes/expectations. Even if you look at the eroge released per month you will see the different verity of the target audience. From pure-love to S&M to public abuse (and submission?!) and even to lolis (had to add this for a certain user), then from there you can break it farther to the type of game, RPG, card/other game or VN. Some of those VN games can be real novels and some are just stories to give the females in the game a personalty to add to the fantasy of the ero scene (Hitomi stepsister comes to mind). But this only apply for the the PC games, if you look at the console games, they do have a number of console exclusive games that never made it to the pc, even as an all-ages pc release.

Trying to combine visual novels into a single category is a mistake, trying to combine anime based games into a single category is even a bigger mistake.

And let me say this, had Clannad not been a visual novel, I would never have given it a second thought. Having cute girls and nice music is a must of a VN, and to be frank, I have no interest in romantic movies or novels, but have a great interest in anime style VN. And yes, these visual novels usually have a under-researched story (ex. trying to make a historical western style story), or a twisted event (ex. a girl select the day that a storm hit the city to run away from home while not taking her mobile phone with her!!) but still, they are fun to read through.

If the reporter who might/might not write a story about VNs, then s/he must first be a VN fan, then let him/her write the story based on his/her opinion. For him/her not to be a fan of VNs and still go ahead and write a story is like someone who can’t stand fish (like myself) yet try to write a review about a sea-food restaurant that only servers fish!

Well, what draws most people in North America to B-Games in the first place is one of two things, a love of anime, manga, and japanese style, and the sex. Regular porn, be it pictures of real women, hentai, or video, gets old for those of us who are more emotionally mature (or less in some cases i suppose).

But for me, what’s got me hooked on B-Games, and i imagine will continue to, (i’m fairly new to them) is the emotional investment that comes from making the choices and going along with the story. By the experience being interactive, and in the cases that count anyway, well written, there’s far more involvement with the story.

From my first post in here on another topic, I mentioned that I’d just finished Heart de Roommate in it’s entirety, and the additional ending for one of the main characters hit me like a tonne of bricks (and still keeps churning over in my head). I looked back at the rest of the game and the story and the endings and saw that it all fit, no matter which path i chose, this ending was pretty much in all of them, just not spelled out… No other game, or movie, or manga, or what have you, outside of real life, could make that sort of claim on me.

All in all, the best part of good Bishoujo games is the emotional investment.

A pure VN faithfully following the books probably not, But a hybrid VN could work quite well if made for mainstream audiance with high-quality graphics and some animation for major scenes and a tactical combats to break things up…or a VN based around the world of LotR set during time period, but not nessarily following the main storyline, though at times perhaps intersecting…

I do not think the climate would allow for a VN novel that followed the main stroyline, but allowed things to branch of based on choices you made and VNs that do not allow that kind of choice tend to not fair so well. It could do maginally okay among hardcore fans if done well as a kenetic novel.

Back at the beginning of this thread, Peter-sama solicited comments about Yume Miru Kurasu and Snow Sakura. Since these are two of my favorites, I appreciate this opportunity to say a few words about them. But I’m not going to discuss them as games, bit rather as works of fiction, as stories.

The sex aside, both YMK and Snow Sakura offer us two fascinating narratives that work on many levels at once, and it's interesting that Peter should mention them both in the same breath; because I believe that they share many of the same themes in common. Most notably: the loneliness of the individual and coping with a hostile environment. We see this most starkly in YMK. Kouhei's school can justly be described as a Blackboard Jungle, where bullying is commonplace. In particular, the scene in the cafeteria where the students are struggling against each other foe sandwiches is a classic example of survival of the fittest. Our protagonist, Kouhei, has learned to cope with this environment by not calling attention to himself. He has a reputation as a good student, but he tells us himself that he only does enough to get by and studiously avoids calling attention to himself, because in this school, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down, and there are plenty of self-appointed hammers, like Antoinette, around to do the job. His situation at home is not much better. His parents are farcically absent emotionally. They are, seemingly, incapable of noticing that Kouhei harasses his sister unmercifully in the same way that the bullies at school harass the weaker students. And that's not the only thing that goes on in this house-practically in front of their eyes-that they fail to notice. We learn early on in the game that Kouhei is actually not blood-related to these people; that he's actually adopted (as if that meant anything). I have to wonder about all these "adopted" siblings that appear in eroge. Are we supposed to take that literally? Or, rather, can we view Kouhei as not so much a stepson as an (out of step) son.

At the beginning of the game, it would appear that Kouhei's life is going nowhere and that the only future we can expect for him is one of increasing emotional isolation, but as he gets involved with one of the three girls in the game, things change dramatically. The way the story (or stories) is structured, it appears that he saves their lives (or not), but from the way I see it, it's they who save his life. After he hooks up with one or another of these girls, he seems better able to cope with life. The moral of the story seems to be that if two individuals can come together, they can tame their environment.

YMK offers us a storyline that is mostly serious, but with a few light touches here and there. By contrast, Snow Sakura is mostly funny, but with a few dramatic flourishes near the end. But like YMK, it's about individuals dealing with a hostile environment. But in this case it's the physical environment that's the problem. At the beginning of the game, we meet Yuuji, another young man making his lonely way thru the urban jungle. Yuuji is quite literally alone, because his parents have (seemingly overnight) moved to a distant part of Japan called Hawaii. Yuuji's father, however, has made provisions for him by sending him off to live with an uncle who lives in Hokkaido. Yuuji at first reacts to this relocation with anger and cynicism. His uncle's home seems to be perpetually covered in snow, and the only things people do there seem to consist of shoveling snow, drinking and playing Mah Jong. At first, Yuuji is determined to remain an outsider, but he eventually comes to accept his place in the group, because the moral of Snow Sakura is that the only way that people can cope with a hostile physical environment is to stick together. In contrast to YMK, which suggests that society is dangerous, Snow Sakura valorizes Community.

Finally, what do the titles of these two games mean? What is The Drug That Makes You Dream? There are drugs in some of the storylines, but they don't seem to play a very important part, and they are presented as negative elements. But the title suggests something more positive. What is the drug that makes you dream? Is it love? Sounds a bit corny, but nevertheless, it could be true. And what of the Snow Sakura, the tree that blooms in the wintertime? The introduction to the game implies that there is something mysterious about it, but, really, it's just a symbol of a community that can thrive in the frozen north. When it's mentioned that long ago Yuuji made a promise under the Snow Sakura that he's forgotten, it's simply that the promise was to take his place in the community.

I am still Fairly new but Snow Sakura was my First and Got me hooked. What made that game Good for me was How Awesome the Charecters where. No plain Cookie Cutter Types and I felt a bit more involved. The Story also Just dragged me in and i couldn’t stop. More so is when i found myself Attached to a charecter and felt truly Sadned when everything was done. Even though they where happy I missed going threw story with them. The Artwork was also Very Beautiful.

Its a lot more appealing for visual novels to tell a story because you get visuals and an open ended scenario. You can choose what happens to a certain degree (although in games like Bible Black, you really could get offed both ways).