I’m in the camp that believes there’s probably many alien civilizations out there, yet they’re so far apart that encounters are few and far between–based on the assumptions that life is a rare but not unique event, the universe is nearly infinite, and faster than light transport (as opposed to mere travel) is not obtainable. Even if we were to encounter them, the interaction might not even be meaningful. Sci-fi tends to paint aliens as human-like creatures; despite their exoticness, they’re approximately human-sized, either carbon-based organics or metal-based machines made by organics, and generally molded in our image (can’t really fault that, as they’re conceived by humans). I think we’re greatly limited by our concept of physics as it operates in the world we know. Physics can change pretty drastically in unusual (to us) conditions, such as high (or low) gravity, pressure, and temperature, together with different mixes of elements. The form of real aliens wouldn’t be limited by our imagination or its ability to appeal to our imagination. They might be microscopic. They might be huge. They might be waveforms rather than matter. In the scenario of 1 and 3, we might not even notice them even if they were right in front of our faces.
Layered on top of all this is the distinct possibility that intelligent life is self-extingishing. Once a race develops too much power it tends to destroy itself in the blink of an eye, galactic-time wise, long before it has a chance to encounter another civilization. Under this hypothesis, intelligent life is continually arising and dying out in self-contained pockets (both spatially and temporally) throughout the universe.
Well even if someone is willing to consider there’s alien life out there, there’s a limit to what it can be. For example there’s no such thing as living igneous rock. Nor could there be a Ununbium based creature wandering through the cosmos. I swear people get some rather insane ideas about what alien could be like… some of them are more unrealistic than Mother Goose Fairy Tales, and would require that magic is real: but then that alien intelligence supporter would be quick to say there’s no such thing as magic. There are forms of molecular activity that are IMPOSSIBLE after all. :roll: If someone thinks there can be Ununbium aliens, that person better not say a word if I claim the Star Gods (and they’re not aliens) from Vega will bring about the Rapture.
That being said: I am fully aware that a creature of a different biological composition would see our world as uninhabitable. An ammonia based creature would see the Earth as a boiling vat of hot acid (in fact our spit and blood would be face melting acid to them, because they contain liquid water). Then again biologists have yet to prove the existence of ammonia based life to begin with, so the point is moot until then. On another token: the physiology of an alien would dictate limitations of what it could or could not achieve. For example a creature with thin cellular membrane (as an ammonia based creature might have), would have a hell of a time developing tools or resisting low level (or at least what we consider low level) radiation. Then again, an ammonia based world would reek havoc on metal depots, so tools might never be an issue (eroding properties and all that). So yea… even if there is or was intelligent life out there, there’s no guarantee they’ll ever advance anywhere worth spit technologically. And since most seem to believe that an alien mind would be so alien, we’d fail to comprehend it, their cultural advancements could be equally useless to us.
I’m ever so tired of seeing aliens in Sci-Fi shows that ALWAYS develop space travel or have technological progress and philosophical achievements on par with humans: we could very damn well be the most advanced creature in the cosmos. So sick of seeing us as inferior or the galactic primitives. On a side note: I also cringe every time I see “bioships” and “biomecha” being superior to equivalent metal technologies. These people must be blatantly ignorant of cellular structure.
Or they are harbouring secret knowledge and keeping us in oppressive ignorance!
Again, we can say what is probably under our current knowledge but seeing as how little we have seen of the universe and how short we have been looking at the infentesimal fraction that we have observed… well, saying anything about what a superiour civilisation with advanced tech and knowledge is both arrogant and ridiculous.
We simply don’t know enough, yet here we are proclaiming our “grand” stores of knowledge on a universe in which we haven’t even experienced in any meaningful capacity.
Yet seeing how much we [u]DO[/u] know about the Universe, and the many great accomplishments we [u]HAVE[/u] made, it would be stupid and ridiculous to claim we’re not a glorious species. We’ve been around for a fraction of the time those reptilian giants had the planet, and we’ve moved along further than they could have possibly dreamed. And there are millions of scum sucking organisms on this planet, that have continued to suck scum for the last half billion years. There’s nothing wrong with being proud of what we’ve achieved.
Besides… I’ve got more proof we’re the most advanced species in the Universe, than you do that we’re not. I dare you to show me your incontestable evidence.
I hope we are not the most glorious or advanced species… the universe is doomed.
I don’t take much stock in the “we have no evidence of…” arguments because of the reasons I have stated. Aside from the problem of induction, there is the whole issue with perceptual limititations, and then limited experience. We might not have any conclusive proof for alien intelligence or metaphysical matters (well, only as pertains to scientific evidence on the last one) but then that is why faith not only exists, but is the most prominent feature in human existence.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe]The Universe is probably already doomed[/url]: we’re here to have fun while it lasts. Besides… a lot can change in 5 trillion years. Humans might turn out okay before the end. Or maybewe won’t.
And responsible for more death, destruction, hatred and ignorance than any other feature in human existence… hope is a better alternative IMHO.
No, no, no… that’s religion. Faith is merely a personal force just like hope. And much like hope, it can be warped by twisted individuals to commit brutal atrocities. Actually, many atrocities have been committed in the hope of the greater good.
I actually have faith, or hold out hope, that humans can and will become better. And this is not in any physical sense of the word, but entirely focused on the emotional, mental, and spiritual faults within so many individuals. Someday things like governement and “law” will be unnecessary because people will finally just do what is truly right…
… and no laughing please. I marvel enough at that foolish hope as it is.
As I alluded to before, I think humanity is doomed. It’s just a matter of time before we snuff ourselves out with weapons of mass destruction. It may take 100 years. It may take 10,000. But time is basically infinite; it’s going to happen eventually. As long as the possibility exists, it’ll happen.
Rather than speculate if there’s alien life, or what that alien life would look like: it outlines what alien life could be made out of - assuming they’re biological creatures and have a molecular structure - then determine the kind of environment they’d exist within.
Was a joint research by the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Engineering, and the Institute of Medicine… paid for by NASA tax dollars… so yea… pretty geeky. :lol:
On the bright side, that makes it public domain information. Thus 100% free.
One neat theory: sulfuric acid or formamide, substituting what water does for us (being a solvent). Hopefully the aliens need ammonia instead… that way humans have the flesh melting acidic blood. 8)
The only part of the research that I’m not in agreement with, is the proposal of life without replication and evolution. If a life form is artificially created, then I can see it happening, but for a complex organism to form without replication or evolution naturally, is just impractical as hell.
It completely spits in the face of improving itself.
Such a life form could not have any external exposure to anything that could change it’s environment. For example an increase in heat or interaction with another creature, these would force “replication” or “evolution” in some degree, or else the life form would be destroyed. Creatures that do replicate or evolve, quite simply, consume or change things to replicate and evolve.
If such an alien existed, we would destroy it, simply by encountering it… no malice or ill intentions required. I’m sure such an alien would consider us Cthulhu, because nothing changes for them (or very little) - and yet every waking moment for us, involves change or adaption on a biological level. We’d literally be pure chaos in their perception of life.
The “big” thing about water existing outside of the Earth isn’t as much about being proof of life existing outside of Earth, but rather the increased potential for life to exist outside of the earth. The reason why the moon’s water has facinated scientists is because it basically serves as a stepping stone for further investigation of potential life outside of Earth, rather than absolute proof–They’re not even anywhere near close to doing that just yet.
Obviously, lifeforms need more than just water. They need Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen, sustainable temperature, adequate pressure, protection from radiation, etc, in order to live. If there are ice deposits on the moon’s surface, then it’s possible that there may be water deep underneath the moon’s surface. If there’s water (H[size=50]2[/size]0) under the moon, then it’s possible there may be traces of loose Hydrogen/Oxygen (H[size=50]2[/size] & O[size=50]2[/size]) in the mix, which might react to whatever Carbon/Nitrogen/Metal there using the moon’s own geothermal energy to create a potentially sustainable environment for life deep underground.
It’d be crazy for a well-educated scientist to assume that the existence of water on the moon means that there’s a super-secret civilization of lunar rabbits planning to conquer the Earth by using weapons that create illusions that drive every human being insane. However, it wouldn’t be ridiculously unreasonable to consider the possibility that simple single-celled microorganisms might exist in groundwater deep below the moon’s surface, similar to how extremophiles live below the Earth’s surface. The assumption that the nail on the coffin has been hit for alien life has one key flaw: A lifeform does not have to be “complex” or “intelligent” in order to be considered a form of life. The environments on all the extraterrestrial planets we’ve found so far are way too harsh to support the kind of creatures we often imagine them to be.
Their reasoning is using mathematical odds - which of course works - but the variables they’re using are pure speculation and faith, which is no different than using mathematical odds to prove that God exists. My contention isn’t if intelligent aliens are out there… my contention is claiming that alien intelligence exists, without proof, being called a science. It is not a science: it is a religion. Belief in aliens isn’t even a scientific hypothesis, since the key component of that requires experimentation on something observable.
I’m just saying that until evidence is shown otherwise, alien intelligence is no different that belief in a divine being, and ignores several core principal of what science represents. They can look all they want, but for now, there is zero evidence that aliens are out there: and that’s what they should be telling people. Adding a “but it’s mathematically impossible” clause is not science anymore. Water being on the Moon or Mars, does not increase the odds of life being out there. We have yet to prove that water can sustain non-based Earth life; seeing how there’s zero non-Earth based life to work the theory with: there’s a chance that despite having water and conditions for life, that life does not exist on them anyways - till we bring it there. The only interstellar location, that has provable evidence of life on it, is Earth (the intelligent part is still up for debate). The only interstellar location, that has lifeforms naturally filling sustainable environments, is Earth. The assumption that somewhere else, something like that is possible, is only an assumption.
On a side note: the only known creature that goes places where it can’t naturally survive, and survives, is Man. Not sure if that counts as intelligence or just plain scary…
The reason why scientific community from associating the theory or potential of alien life with religion is because life does actually exist in this universe–Look no further than planet Earth. Life on Earth is a consequence of various factors/conditions within/outside the planet, and if it could be replicated outside of Earth, then there’s at least the potential for life to exist outside of Earth. I can agree that we’re one-of-a-kind from the information we have so far, but we don’t have any scientific evidence suggesting there is no life out there because we haven’t even explored any of our own universe–Wouldn’t it be equally religious and unscientific to conclude to the fact that the “nail has been hit on the coffin” for alien life if we haven’t explored the entire universe, especially considering the fact that we ourselves are what you’d refer to as “lifeforms”?
It’s not a matter of “faith” like in religion, but a desire to explore the universe and seek something similar to humanity itself. The search for extraterrestrial life isn’t something that can be tested, it’s just something you encounter. You look around for where life might be, you discover it, and you declare that there’s life. From what we know so far, the answer to whether there’s life out there isn’t a clear-cut “yes” or “no” answer, it’s “I don’t know”, and that’s the default assumption for any scientific investigation. If scientists truly knew for sure whether life was out there or not, why would they bother wasting their time looking?
Besides, even if a majority of scientists are unscientific about their belief in alien life, why would you expect the scientific community to be so arrogant as to accept the fact that intelligent life on Earth is a one-of-a-kind thing in this universe?
Which in of itself ¬ñ for the purposes of proving life exists [u]off[/u] the planet Earth ¬ñ has no relevance without concrete proof that life exists off of it. Just because there’s life on Earth, does not mean there has to be life on another planet. That is no different than because oxygen atoms can stabilize a 4-bond, and even pull off an 8-bond, does not mean oxygen atoms can stabilize a 16-bond or 32-bond, no matter how much someone’s theoretical computer models explain it could be possible (because it’s not; end of story).
Not really. In the scientific method, the burden of proof in proving something exists without observable data, lies entirely with the individuals proposing the imagined model. The default answer with science ¬ñ and logic ¬ñ is that something does not exist until proven or observed that it does. Hence the default that science rejects the existence of God, even if it cannot prove that God does not exist (or dragons, or goblins, or vampires). It is not the function of the scientific method to assume existence simply because “it seems right” - a lot of times such feelings have been proven dead wrong in the end.
How you word it, sounds exactly like faith, when the target subject is shifted for it: …a desire to explore the universe and seek something greater than humanity itself. The search for God isn’t something that can be tested, it’s just something you encounter. You look around for where God might be, you discover it, and you declare that there’s God.
Holy. Holy. Holy. Amen.
This is why observable data is the cornerstone of science: that is what differentiates it from religion and philosophy: the need of actual proof.
Keep their jobs. Chase a dream. Pure delusion. There’s a lot of reasons why people want something, even if there’s no proof, or all evidence to the contrary dictates otherwise.
Science is not about arrogance. Science is about what simply is. Something being one of a kind, is not alien (pun!) to science. Chemistry and Physics are full of “one of a kind” events and occurrences. For the purpose of science, it is better for the truth to be arrogant, than a lie to be noble.
Scientists can search for alien intelligence - there’s a lot of benefits (and dangers) if they discover it. I’ve got no problem with that. Again the issue is: How can scientists declare that alien intelligence is real, without proof that it’s out there, and sit high on that throne while declaring there is no God.They can’t… they are perverting the essence of science (using mathematical models without real variables and presupposed biochemistry without irrefutable evidence) and being complete hypocrites while doing it. That is my beef. The search for alien intelligence - and even the search for God - can be performed using the scientific method, and therefore be scientific endeavors. However declaring that they exist, without satisfying the prerequisites, is not.
I think you’re conflating the personal beliefs of these scientists with their professional beliefs. I don’t think any reputable scientist would say or has said that it is scientifically proven or certain that there is extraterrestrial life. But it’s not unscientific to believe that there is extraterrestrial life, while acknowledging that there is nothing yet that demonstrates it scientifically. Right now it’s a hypothesis, and there’s nothing wrong with that; it’s the first step of the scientific method, after all. Merely having an unproven hypothesis is not unscientific or dogmatic, only if you regard that hypothesis as proven is it a problem.
I went to check, to be sure (hence the long response time) and discovered there’s been so many, it’s not even funny. Outright ignoring the obvious Frank Drake, Freeman Dyson, and Carl Sagan: you get the aforementioned Stephen Hawking, Wernher Von Braun, Michio Kaku, Jean-Jacques Dordain… practically everyone whose ever served on the review board panel of SETI (this one bothers me… even the Catholic Church will elect a Devil’s Advocate for miracles).
They say there’s alien intelligence - even being arrogant enough to claim more advanced than us to boot - WITHOUT proof. Their autobiographies clearly state it… “only a matter of time” or “it’s statistically impossible” rhetoric: thus implied certainty. Did you know that it’s statistically impossible for me to NOT fly under my own power, right now at this very moment in time and stage of evolution? Because obviously biological creatures can perform such a feat, and under some wacky insane conditions, maybe I can do it too. You won’t see me start claiming “it’s statistically impossible” that I cannot fly like Superman, nor would any government agency blindly spend billions to test if I could.
It’s not just the claim of alien intelligence though… the String Theory is even more hokey. There’s more provable evidence on alien life, than there is of dimensional membranes… and that’s saying a lot.
Honestly though… the man has been growing ever more paranoid as of late. We scantly have the technology to get to Mars safely, and we’ve been trying to figure out reliable means for self-restoring supplies in space (i.e. growing crops in zero-g) for decades. Fact of the matter is, our technology has a long ways to go, before we can remotely consider space colonization. It would also require capital on a global scale. Constructing super spaceship means moar people will be starving or in poverty (since all efforts would need to be dedicated to it). Who decides who goes into space and who stays on this dirt rock? Wars have started over less.
I think we need get our crap together on Earth first: then worry about leaving it. Might be better to just figure out how to build a Dyson’s Sphere instead. Don’t need to really go anywhere. In fact, going uber fantasy tech, if we could build an enclosing Dyson Sphere around our Sun, we’d be more “invisible” from alien detection (and harness an insane level of energy in the process).
That be cool… humans exploring space, with their own solar system. Never leave home without it.
Actually, a Dyson Sphere might make aliens MORE likely to pop by. A Dyson’s Sphere doesn’t block gravity; they’d be able to tell that there was something there by looking at the effects of the Sun’s gravity on other bodies. Then it would be anomalous: an invisible star? Must be a black hole - except our sun isn’t big enough.
