Another poll thought

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#1

Hey All,

Well the previous question about what we liked and disliked about the current domestic anime/game/manga department got me thinking. So, I hope you don’t mind, but here is a what I’ve been thinking about.

Editing.

I know, I know, “Mike, that’s really revealing.” But it’s been puzzling me. You see recently I picked up the LDs of Can Can Bunny Extra 1 - 3, and guess what I saw? About 5 - 10 minutes of extra footage on each LD, that isn’t on the SoftCel releases. Which got me to thinking "Why delete it?"

Maybe it was because most of the extra footage had the censorship pixeling, and would cost extra for SoftCel to remove the pixeling… but then I saw the episode with the High School girl that Kenta helps (can’t remember her name.) At the end of the episode, Kenta and her make love. And it’s pretty romantic too… but SoftCel doesn’t have this in. Now, my guess is becuase the girl looks like and acts like a highschooler (that is, she’s not as well developed with breasts, and her voice is higher, and she wears a school-girl uniform.) But then I started thinking "that’s pretty stupid. They have the ‘all characters are 18+’ at the begining of the show; and tons of anime get around this by saying ‘I goto Thus-and-such Junior College’."

So… for whatever reason, SoftCel removed the entire scene.

This got me thinking about Kite, and how it was edited to because it contained “potentially objectionable material that might seriously offend some viewers.” Now this does make sense to me… but it bugs me at the same time. If I want to view Kite, I have to buy the edited version. I don’t goto art museams and see edited Van Gogh’s, Warhol’s, or Picasso’s. Why should I only have access to edited anime/games/manga/etc? Criminy there are “Uncut” versions of movies like American Pie. Why not uncut anime or manga or games. Let me, as the consumer, choose what I want to read or not read.

By forcing me to only view the edited material (even if I might agree with the edit) I don’t get to witness the movie/story/art/etc. as the creator envisioned it. Could you immagine looking at an edited “American Gothic” or “Mona Lisa”, or “Gullivers Travels”, or “Moby Dick”, or “Rebel Without a Cause”, or "The Shinning?"

In my not so humble opinion editing is stupid. If there is some material that you think someone might find objectional, just label that material. Let the consumer be aware of the potentially objectional material, and let them decided.

Worse is editing something just because you don’t like it. For example, I don’t really have an interested in the Water Closet game. But others might. So, I wouldn’t edit the Water Closet game. I’d offer it those who still are interested in it. I wouldn’t support it, but I would allow others to if they wanted to.

In that same vein, I’m not terribly fond of yaoi-ai (graphic male-male relationships); however, others are. So, if I was translating an anime or manga that contained yaoi-ai material, I would keep it in. If I didn’t, it would be unfair to the consumer. If I edited the anime/manga/game/etc I would be forcing the consumer to accept only my view and interpretation of anime. and to let them see only what I like to watch. And not be letting them make their own choice. Not everyone is going to like what you like, and you should let others choose for themselves.

Anyway my question to you all is this, “How do you feel about only having available to you domestic material that is edited? Especially if the material is edited not because of content, but because the editor doesn’t like such material?”

I know this is a very touchy subject, so please keep it professional, and do your best not to personally attack anyone.

Thank you for listening to my rant and question. Feel free to post comments on my comments, or ask qeustions about what I posted; sometimes I’m not terribly clear. I think this’ll definatley generate some potential posts.

Mike

#2

I do agree with you Mike that the options on content should be in the consumers hands. That is why I like DVD’s so much with their extra features! However, it is also the editors right I think to decide what he/she feels will make the show better to watch. Sometimes when I see deleted scenes I agree with the editing b/c it really did make the show drag or it just didn’t fit with the overall mood.
If the editor feels that something should be edited I think it is ok for the final release of the show but I think it would certainly nice if they showed what was edited out b/c I’m certainly one who is always interested in seeing the deleted scenes or segments. That is why I hope they keep those features in DVDs. It would be a shame if they got rid of them.

#3

I couldn’t agree more with you, everytime I’m thinking about purchasing anything that’s imported I have to ask myself what did they change, take out, censor or even add.

It’s frustrating to buy a game, or anime DVD only to find out that scenes are missing or edited. I’ve been trying to get around this by buuying both the original import and renting (if possilbe) the US release. Obviously doing this is not fun (and expensive)…

#4
quote:
Originally posted by FeistyGuy:
However, it is also the editors right I think to decide what he/she feels will make the show better to watch. Sometimes when I see deleted scenes I agree with the editing b/c it really did make the show drag or it just didn't fit with the overall mood.
If the editor feels that something should be edited I think it is ok for the final release of the show but I think it would certainly nice if they showed what was edited out b/c I'm certainly one who is always interested in seeing the deleted scenes or segments. That is why I hope they keep those features in DVDs. It would be a shame if they got rid of them.

Unfortunately, there seems there is not a constant on what should be edited/deleted. I have read that in End of Summer 1 & 2 (Domestic releases of Doukyuusei), Wataru's dream was edited. I haven't seen the US release, so I can't confirm it. However, if it is true, I REALLY don't see a reason why it was cut.

Now, I wholeheartly disagree on why it should be edited/deleted for length. They should leave it like that, and, if we choose to skip that part, we can use the fast-forward! [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Now, compared to domestic US releases, I don't see that much extras in the DVD (the disc) compared to the Japanese release. Probably because I am getting not so new releases or because I am only getting almost everything from KSS and PinPai, or probably because of they prefer to keep it simple (for instance, in the bishoujo anime I have, the menu is a simple non-catchy one). Now, I love the posters and some extra omake it carries (though I received my Kakyuusei OVA DVDs with no omake)

#5

Hmmm…I personally dislike editing.
Let’s take it this way, the title stated “18+ only”, now it is obvious that adults are watching this title , why bother editing!? Especially if it affects our understanding of the whole story.
However, it also might be due to cultural differences.

It also got me thinking, would you rather have non-censored title from Japan or edited but non-censored title in the US?
So it’s a plus and minus on the issue I think

#6
quote:
Originally posted by Kaiser Fire:
Hmmm....I personally dislike editing.
Let's take it this way, the title stated "18+ only", now it is obvious that adults are watching this title [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img], why bother editing!? Especially if it affects our understanding of the whole story.
However, it also might be due to cultural differences.

It also got me thinking, would you rather have non-censored title from Japan or edited but non-censored title in the US?
So it's a plus and minus on the issue I think

Even if they state it is 18+ only, someone may say the content has underage characters. As for getting the anime from Japan R2, I just wrote this in Tenshi-tachi ML:

"Now, for my comments: When I find something has been edited/removed/cut/butchered, I am usually annoyed and furious. Then, I take a deep breath, followed by a deep sigh. After all that, I check CD Japan, JIGS or other shops to see how much does the Region 2 release costs. (Considering that Pink Pineapple is re-releasing most of their anime into DVDs, it certainly helps a lot!)."

#7

Hi, fxho
Good point .

By the way, fxho how about the issue of cencorship that we usually find in Japan releases but not in American releases?

#8

Quote :-

"It was also in the eighties that PC bishoujo games were considered “lawless territory” by many (as the Internet still is these days). There were no regulations imposed on games publishers, and this problem came to the fore after dB-soft released the infamous 177 in 1986. The game became a hotly-debated issue in the Japanese parliament over the negative influence erotic games were having on society. Eventually, dB-Soft was told to alter parts of the game. But that was not the end of the matter. In 1991, Saori X-Shitei was considered obscene, and shops were ordered to pull it off their shelves. Then in 1992, Miyazaki Prefecture amended its juvenile law, and along with a section of the print media, PC bishoujo games were considered liable for corrupting Japan’s youth. One of the titles affected by the new ruling was Gainax’s 1989 Dennou Gakuen - Cybernetics Hi-School.

Faced with a possible public backlash, the industry decided to self-regulate itself, and in 1992 its software makers gathered together to form the Computer Software Rinri Kikou (SOFUIN for short). Guidelines for the creation of adult games (the use of the mosaic) and their sales (the inclusion of the shiny ‘18kin’–the ‘not for sale to anyone below 18’–label on the packaging) were laid down."

As oppose to the popular belife that the American General MacArthur introduced mosiace after taking over Japan at the end of WW II.

#9
quote:
Originally posted by Kaiser Fire:
By the way, fxho how about the issue of cencorship that we usually find in Japan releases but not in American releases?

I don't really mind the mosaic censorship if that's want you meant. I view the anime and/or play the game for the story, not for those scenes. That's why it didn't bother when the Kakyuusei OVA DVD I got wasn't the 15+ release (I have seen the 15+ release, though).

#10

and just what’s wrong with having underage characters?
they’re only drawings

the “lolita” fetish is pretty popular…women often dress up as little girls in adult videos

if the law allows THAT
then there’s no reason to censor some drawings

#11

exoarcheaologist-san:

Yes, sounds a bit extreme, considering that are only drawings. However, unlike lolita, where the actresses are wearing school uniforms/dress up like cute little girls, the anime characters are attending high school (or junior college, if you buy that). There is a huge difference there. It is not only what it depicts, but also who performs it.

Remember, it may be legal in Japan, yet it may be illegal in other places of the world.

#12

Quote :-

"The industry itself is, by no means, in safe waters yet. Bowing to international pressure, new laws banning child pornography and prostitution in Japan came into effect in November 1999. Under the new law, it is illegal to produce, distribute, sell, possess and trade child pornography (the definition of ‘child’ being a person below the age of 18) in any form. Though games remain unaffected, a review of the law in November 2002 may take games and comics into consideration. And that could mean a major shake-up for the industry."

So now,we basically have underage charas whose age are not defined in games.

EG :- In AIR,although the female charas are appearing to be attending High School and wearing what looks like a High School Uniform,it was never stated in the game that they are.What was stated was that they are attednding a “Neighbourhood School.”

#13

I don’t like censorship, I can see why some things are censored, especially if an inappropriate age group would have access to the material. I’d prefer a warning on the package as to the nature of the offensive material, and then allow me to make my own decisions where that is concerned.

#14

Personally I would rather allow the choice on what I view, read, or listen to up to myself.

However, the idea of obscenity in the United States comes from the Puritan background that this nation has grown up with(Sorry for excluding foreign nations but I am best familar with the US).

Our obscenity rules come from Miller v. California and Paris Adult Theatre I v. Slaton (From the best of my knowledge, I’m not in law school yet).

Miller boils down to a redefining of terms of what is exactly “obscene” material, not protected under the First amendment. This was a clarification of the rules set under Roth v. United States.

What it comes down to is whether or not material is viewed as solely a prurient interest, basically inciting lustful thoughts, utterly without value whatsoever. Material viewed as such therefore does not fall under First Amendment protection.

Through the case of Memoirs v. Massachusetts there was shown that the standard set by Roth made it near impossible to actually apply that standard. Miller rejects the utterly without value, but still uses the Roth arguement of being viewed by the average person, using reasonable, recent community standards would find them obscene. Basically the outcome was that the states themselves can issue standards, because the nation is to large and diverse to apply a set of standards taht would be applicable to them all as a whole.

Paris Theatre basically came about Georgia wanting to regulate advertising for adult material. They said overt advertising of sexual material is impinging on the rights of others, invading their privacy.

As for the underage pornography, it falls under New York v. Ferber. The state has a interest in protecting minors from psychological and physical harm. Although there have been recent cases about drawn or computer generated children, I am not aware of one that has made it to the Supreme Court as of yet(like I said, I’m waiting on going to law school).

So basically the idea from that is material featuring characters who are children can entice those to repeat the actions on children. Although there is a gray area about older people playing underage characters, like Fast Times at Ridgemont High, ect.

In addition, adult material, physically, can be zoned in areas away from places where it could offend others, which basically was used as a means of forcing pornographic sellers into districts where it was finanically impossible to survive.

What’s the point of this in the discussion?

It is an uphill, if not impossible, climb to allow the scenes of characters who are supposed to be “18” or older and obviously look like that. See the Noctural Illusion “scenes” with Red Riding Hood and um, that doll gal, which I have heard are edited out.

While I do not agree with much of this, it is what is in place.

Sorry if anyone finds my post lacking, I hope to actually have this down pat in time. :slight_smile:

#15
quote:
Originally posted by Picky:
Personally I would rather allow the choice on what I view, read, or listen to up to myself.

However, the idea of obscenity in the United States comes from the Puritan background that this nation has grown up with(Sorry for excluding foreign nations but I am best familar with the US).

Our obscenity rules come from Miller v. California and Paris Adult Theatre I v. Slaton (From the best of my knowledge, I'm not in law school yet).

Miller boils down to a redefining of terms of what is exactly "obscene" material, not protected under the First amendment. This was a clarification of the rules set under Roth v. United States.

What it comes down to is whether or not material is viewed as solely a prurient interest, basically inciting lustful thoughts, utterly without value whatsoever. Material viewed as such therefore does not fall under First Amendment protection.

Through the case of Memoirs v. Massachusetts there was shown that the standard set by Roth made it near impossible to actually apply that standard. Miller rejects the utterly without value, but still uses the Roth arguement of being viewed by the average person, using reasonable, recent community standards would find them obscene. Basically the outcome was that the states themselves can issue standards, because the nation is to large and diverse to apply a set of standards taht would be applicable to them all as a whole.

Paris Theatre basically came about Georgia wanting to regulate advertising for adult material. They said overt advertising of sexual material is impinging on the rights of others, invading their privacy.

As for the underage pornography, it falls under New York v. Ferber. The state has a interest in protecting minors from psychological and physical harm. Although there have been recent cases about drawn or computer generated children, I am not aware of one that has made it to the Supreme Court as of yet(like I said, I'm waiting on going to law school).

So basically the idea from that is material featuring characters who are children can entice those to repeat the actions on children. Although there is a gray area about older people playing underage characters, like Fast Times at Ridgemont High, ect.

In addition, adult material, physically, can be zoned in areas away from places where it could offend others, which basically was used as a means of forcing pornographic sellers into districts where it was finanically impossible to survive.

What's the point of this in the discussion?

It is an uphill, if not impossible, climb to allow the scenes of characters who are supposed to be "18" or older and obviously look like that. See the Noctural Illusion "scenes" with Red Riding Hood and um, that doll gal, which I have heard are edited out.

While I do not agree with much of this, it is what is in place.

Sorry if anyone finds my post lacking, I hope to actually have this down pat in time. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Arisa

#16