quote:Originally posted by Noirbo: ... ..... .......
Why do you guys keep refering that yellow hair girl from Jewel Knights/Marumu from Heart de Rommmate as lolicons ???
THEY ARE NOT ... DAMN IT... They might LOOK young but it does NOT mean they are underaged. Therefore, there is NO POINT for G-C to edit it if they are NOT lolicons.
I am all for free discussion of various topics in Bishoujo Games but for God's sake, DO NOT call ALL YOUNG Looking girls lolicon, especially when most people are very sensitive with this particular topic. (Remember the post of that Canada's law) This kind of discussion might bring unnecessary attention to that game and might hinder the release of that game, ESPECIALLY, when the character is NOT lolicon.
Now... Here is a game with REAL lolicon characters:
Hmmm... Almost every scenario in Bishoujo Games if applied to "REAL" life would be considered either immoral or illegal. What makes the above game "sick" as you put it and other games okay?
Many games have rape scenes. Do you think raping a girl is not sick? Many games have incest scenario. Do you think incest is not sick? Some games have teachers/students relationships. Do you think that's okay morally? There are many many other examples I can give out here but you get the point. Games are designed for people to entertain. Please respect each person's choices of game. If you personally don't like it, that's fine as it is your personal choices. No one is forcing you to play that game. Calling it sick is a bit extreme in my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Laslow: Is there a import site where i can get it? If not can i borrow it when your done?
quote:Originally posted by Laslow: Bah i looked under cage at first on himeya not rune >_<. Was sad when i didn't find it hehe. Any other similar games you can reccomend?
[This message has been edited by Laslow (edited 03-30-2004).]
^__^ I am glad you found it.
I wouldn't know what I should recommend as there are many many simialr games out there. In Japanese of course. I would say Cage games usually have quite high quality. though. Hope it helps.
quote:Originally posted by Noirbo: Why do you guys keep refering that yellow hair girl from Jewel Knights/Marumu from Heart de Rommmate as lolicons ???
Because we're talking about character stereotypes. Stereotypes are based off simplified or non-supported information. "Lolicon" isn't a technical or legal term. It's not even an official psychological diagnosis. ("pedophilia" is the offical term, "lolita complex" is used but isn't part of the DSM IV criterion.) So a person, or character, is considered a "lolicon" stereotype based more off appearance rather than verifiable information. That's why there are "lolicon" magazines available despite the fact that all the models within are of legal age. They're just women who look younger then they actually are and often are posed or dressed in such a way to emphasize the illusion.
Not to the heart of the matter. Will it be edited? Most likely not. So far, most of the cries about "editing" of G-Collection games have come from people who have seen images from games like Kana that they never saw in the G-Col release. The problem is, usually it's images from the DVD version of the game (which can include storylines and images not included in the original release) and what was released was an English translation of the original CD-ROM games. I mean, one of their first game pretty much was based off the taboo premises of incest, I can't see them shying away from this. (And in my opinion, G-Col been skirting the issue of underage characters in some of their games as it is.)
Now for it not being released, I think this is also an unsupported worry at this time. So far, G-Col has done a very good job of releasing each game they announce. (Probably learned not to jump the gun too far from PeaPri.) So far, there's been delays to add some additional features, but no absolute cancellations of a title.
And this issue pretty much isn't going to go away. Especially concerning bishoujo games. It's because you really can't just show a "birth certificate" to prove that the characters are of legal age. In some art styles, characters could be in their mid-forties but still look like they're barely out of their teens. Somebody's going to say they "look underage". So whether we call the characters "lolicons" or not, there's likely to be complaints and that pointing out that the information written about a fictional character saying that her body develops slowly compared to other girls isn't going to be enough to disuade them from occuring.
*add* Just fixing some code to make it a little more readable...
[This message has been edited by ekylo (edited 03-31-2004).]
quote:Originally posted by ekylo: Because we're talking about character stereotypes. Stereotypes are based off simplified or non-supported information. "Lolicon" isn't a technical or legal term. It's not even an official psychological diagnosis. ("pedophilia" is the offical term, "lolita complex" is used but isn't part of the DSM IV criterion.) So a person, or character, is considered a "lolicon" stereotype based more off appearance rather than verifiable information. That's why there are "lolicon" magazines available despite the fact that all the models within are of legal age. They're just women who look younger then they actually are and often are posed or dressed in such a way to emphasize the illusion.
Not to the heart of the matter. Will it be edited? Most likely not. So far, most of the cries about "editing" of G-Collection games have come from people who have seen images from games like Kana that they never saw in the G-Col release. The problem is, usually it's images from the DVD version of the game (which can include storylines and images not included in the original release) and what was released was an English translation of the original CD-ROM games. I mean, one of their first game pretty much was based off the taboo premises of incest, I can't see them shying away from this. (And in my opinion, G-Col been skirting the issue of underage characters in some of their games as it is.)
Now for it not being released, I think this is also an unsupported worry at this time. So far, G-Col has done a very good job of releasing each game they announce. (Probably learned not to jump the gun too far from PeaPri.) So far, there's been delays to add some additional features, but no absolute cancellations of a title.
And this issue pretty much isn't going to go away. Especially concerning bishoujo games. It's because you really can't just show a "birth certificate" to prove that the characters are of legal age. In some art styles, characters could be in their mid-forties but still look like they're barely out of their teens. Somebody's going to say they "look underage". So whether we call the characters "lolicons" or not, there's likely to be complaints and that pointing out that the information written about a fictional character saying that her body develops slowly compared to other girls isn't going to be enough to disuade them from occuring.
I wasn't going to post anything more tonight because (1) I feel lazy at the moment (2) I finally have free time to play Bunny 2 for the second time after the game arrived at my doorstep but ... A good post deserves a fast reply; therefore, here I go.
Maybe it's my misconception or maybe it's because I am being exposed to different kind of cultural information. Even though what you said is true about "Lolicon" being not a technical or legal term, "Lolita" and "Lolicon" are indeed the same concept but with different words. They both mean underaged girls or so I firmly believe. And that's what sparks my response. There is no way a person can determine the real age of a girl especially in Bishoujo Games. And that's exactly one of the reasons why the usage of the word "Lolicon" upsets me to no end. If the word "Lolicons" were tp be replaced by "Young Looking Girls," I wouldn't feel a thing so to speak.
As for why the discussion of "Lolicon" (As I believe that's a word which means girls who are underaged) in a game upsets me this much. That's because of the fact that most people here are very sensitive with that particular subject. Anything that's related to underaged girls being exposed to sexual situation is immediately labeled as "sick", "disgusting", "should-be-banned" subject. It doesn't matter in what forms the concept exist. It doesn't matter if they are books, movies, games or animes. Therefore, I believe the discussion of an underaged girl in Bishoujo Game can only bring harms and doubts to this particular industry.
I am sure this issue pretty much isn't going to go away but before our society can accept this kind of idea in a game as Japanese people do. Before people can start respecting different forms of artworks/concepts in an exotic game. I think it's best if we refrain ourselves from disucssing this particualr sensitive issue.
quote:Originally posted by Noirbo: As for why the discussion of "Lolicon" (As I believe that's a word which means girls who are underaged) in a game upsets me this much. That's because of the fact that most people here are very sensitive with that particular subject. Anything that's related to underaged girls being exposed to sexual situation is immediately labeled as "sick", "disgusting", "should-be-banned" subject. It doesn't matter in what forms the concept exist. It doesn't matter if they are books, movies, games or animes. Therefore, I believe the discussion of an underaged girl in Bishoujo Game can only bring harms and doubts to this particular industry.
If we ignore these issues we do not grow, through discussion comes understanding at times, and through understanding, or more often disagreement, we grow and change. To ignore this topic might be as bad as to embrace it in other words and that being the case . . .
See I think the real issue here is the fact people are not understanding or caring this is a computer pixel image and not the real thing. Protect real children, by all means I am for that, if you must use force to protect them use force, but to change, edit, remove, whatever, a pixel image for what it represents makes no sense to me. Freedom of speech, so long as no one does these actions in real life who cares what they do on a computer game, personally I would much rather have them doing them on the computer game then having no 'means', for lack of a better way to say it, but real life. Not defending this, just defending the right to have it in games, freedom of speech and expression.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 03-30-2004).]
quote:Originally posted by SCDawg: [B] If we ignore these issues we do not grow, through discussion comes understanding at times, and through understanding, or more often disagreement, we grow and change. To ignore this topic might be as bad as to embrace it in other words and that being the case . . .
I have to concur. I remember the Nocturnal Illusions encounter that was mentioned as "edited" I originally thought it was an issues with my copy of the game. Wasn't until replaying it a couple of years later that I realize what must of occurred.
Open discussion is the way to go. No one ever profited from the closet.
Just two points: 1: Discussion is good, particularly about taboo subjects. This BBS is a good place for discussion of these issues, because people round here know that both law and conventions are very different in Japan, no matter what each of our individual opinions is.
2: I think a female character can definitely be described as a lolicon character if she only looks young, even if her genuine original stated Japanese age is 18 or older! Because lolicon primarily refers to the guys, and comes from “lolita complex”. So surely the “complex” part of that means a lolicon girl is just one who’d appeal to those with such a complex?
quote:Originally posted by Seishin: Oi, dÈjÅEvu. It's the lolita discussion again... Just don't go all postal again, you guys. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
^_^ Don't worry. Going all postal in this particular discussion is the last thing I want to do; therefore, this is the last reply I will post under this particular thread and it will be a pretty short one.
While it is true that through discussion we grow and no one ever profited from the closet, but aren't we forgetting one thing? Bishoujo Games/Exotic Games in general is already a very touchy subject as we in US are very ... er... should we say touchy when it comes to sex related topics. Adding another controversial topic (underaged being exposed to sexual situation) while this particular industry is still in its infancy, in my opinion, will bring more harm than good.
The reality is, majority of people go overboard when it comes to protect the kids. It does not matter if you and I know the difference between a pixel image and a live kid. People immediately label something as bad/shoule-be-banned once they know kids are involved in sexual situation. We wouldn't want Bishoujo Games to be labelled in that way, would we? Especially, when most people already find the concept of Bishoujo Games to be weird and socially unacceptable. Discussion of lolicon is just like adding woods to the fire in a BAD WAY.
There are many more things I would like to add but too lazy to do so. In conclusion, when and if bishoujo games industry grows out of its infancy, it wouldn't be too late to bring out this particualr subject. Before that, I certainly think we should refrain ourselves (<- ^__^ used it several times) from discussing this topic.
quote:Originally posted by Noirbo: The reality is, majority of people go overboard when it comes to protect the kids. It does not matter if you and I know the difference between a pixel image and a live kid. People immediately label something as bad/shoule-be-banned once they know kids are involved in sexual situation. We wouldn't want Bishoujo Games to be labelled in that way, would we? Especially, when most people already find the concept of Bishoujo Games to be weird and socially unacceptable. Discussion of lolicon is just like adding woods to the fire in a BAD WAY.
There are many more things I would like to add but too lazy to do so. In conclusion, when and if bishoujo games industry grows out of its infancy, it wouldn't be too late to bring out this particualr subject. Before that, I certainly think we should refrain ourselves (<- ^__^ used it several times) from discussing this topic.
I don't agree. There has been no outcry about about loliconish content in H-manga and anime, and they have a higher profile than b-games. I don't think that many people will really care, and even if they do it will make no difference. Under US law things like lolicon (with regards to unreal things like drawings) are protected by the first amendmemt. This has been confirmed by supreme court rulings. Games couldn't be banned because of content like that. It would be more of an issue if the games were being stocked in regular stores, and stores could refuse to sell them, but they are not.
Furthermore, I believe that any topic should be open for discussion. Not discussing something because it is controversial is rather poor in my opinion.
[This message has been edited by dco_chris (edited 03-31-2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Noirbo: There are many more things I would like to add but too lazy to do so. In conclusion, when and if bishoujo games industry grows out of its infancy, it wouldn't be too late to bring out this particualr subject. Before that, I certainly think we should refrain ourselves (<- ^__^ used it several times) from discussing this topic.
Or, conversely, by that time it might be too late and the industry will be established following the path of most estalished bodies by not wanting to rock the boat and create waves. So I think the change must happen before the 'growth' if it is to happen at all within the industry. Most people, places, industires, tend to become very conservative once established, and though it is hard perhaps to imagine this industry as conservative, they can be in their own way.
I am not sure what overboard protecting children might be but I think this goes beyond protecting children because I have yet to here continually 90 to 100% proven evidence this actually works to protect or actually has anything to do with protection rather then is just linked to protection so it can occur. However, I don't think it's an issue of what is and is not labeled in terms of the industry in general, it is trying to get that label changed with this one industry, which should be a lot easier then changing it for all industries at least at first.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 03-31-2004).]
quote:Hmmm... Almost every scenario in Bishoujo Games if applied to "REAL" life would be considered either immoral or illegal. What makes the above game "sick" as you put it and other games okay?
The girls in the game you linked look really young. They look like 8-10 years old. That's too extreme to me.
quote:Many games have rape scenes. Do you think raping a girl is not sick?
I'm not thinking that. I'm against rape in games.
quote:Many games have incest scenario. Do you think incest is not sick?
I'm not thinking that. I don't like the concept of incest, but I can put up with it.
quote:Some games have teachers/students relationships. Do you think that's okay morally?
I don't really see why it wouldn't be okay. If the girl is mature I don't see a problem.
quote:Games are designed for people to entertain. Please respect each person's choices of game. If you personally don't like it, that's fine as it is your personal choices. No one is forcing you to play that game.
I know, and everyone plays what they want, but I think there are some limits to what we can call entertainment.
quote:Calling it sick is a bit extreme in my opinion.
Well, as I pointed out, 8-10 year old girls in a sexual situation isn't really something that should be applauded.
they aren’t 8 year-old girls. This is a video game with no basis in reality. Thats fine if you don’t like it, just don’t push your right wing ideas on others.
Just teasing. Hmm, well with the term “lolicon”, people define it differently making it a little hard. Even “lolita complex” isn’t used uniformly. I’ve seen it used to mean specifically “sexual attraction to underage girls”, as “sexual attraction to youthful appearing women” and as “sexual attraction to women signficantly younger”. (The fun of subjective definitions…) And this was just in actual published psychological articles. It gets really varied when you go into general public definitions. (Want some fun, look up “lolicon” on the internet and see how many different ways it’s defined.)
For me, a “lolicon” isn’t specifically an underage girl although a “lolita” is. It’s open to personal interpretation but to me defining “lolicons” to be “youthful looking” women seems closer to the actual Japanese definition of the term. (Although I bet you ask 10 Japanese to define the term, they’ll be some great variation between them.) Again, it mainly comes from certain magazines where they are specifically marketed towards “those who love lolicons”. If “lolicons” were specifically underage girls, then these magazines would have problems. Either their target audience wouldn’t be buying them since the pictured models are 18 or older or the models are underage and the magazines themselves are illegal.
As for refraining from the subject, I don’t think it’s going to be possible since it’s often at the core of many bishoujo games. I think it was mentioned before, but it’s a popular stereotype in the first place, that’s why it’s so prevelant. Also, refraining from “lolicon” topics because it’s controversial would also suggest we should refrain from other similiar topics like “rape”, “sado-masochism”, homosexuality", “incest”, etc. Since some of the games revolve specifically around those themes, it’s be almost impossible to have discussions without them.
There’s always going to be those, even within the bishoujo community, who feel strongly about certain subjects. That’s what leads to some of the more interesting discussions. (I mean, if we all agreed, why bother talking about it?) But with those strong feelings comes those, er “postal” posts at times. That’s usually where things go wrong, where “discussion” becomes “rant”. It’s our responsibility, individually, to curb those things as much as possible.
Which is why I always liked this particular BBS. Yes, we have threads where things go horribly wrong, but for the most part, people here are open minded enough to listen when you give your opinions and arguments. If they’re well thought out or at least show something beyond a visceral response, your point of view will be respected. Heck, I know I will very rarely sway a person’s opinion with my own, but if I can at least make someone think about a subject a little more, whether it makes them stronger or weaker in their own opinion, I think it’s worth it to make the effort.
^Great post ekylo, I agree 100% This board doesn’t seem too bad for discussing things. I’ve seen other boards degenerate into name calling when discussing difficult topics.
[This message has been edited by dco_chris (edited 03-31-2004).]
Personally, I don’t think there IS a limit to what you can consider entertainment in the digital format, as long as there is no actual living human or animal being harmed either emotionally or physically in the process.
That would be like the government censoring what maybe only a few individuals feel is “inappropriate”. Let’s say you were the only person in the world thinking lolicon games were sick. If you had the power to, would you ban them, even when the whole world disagrees with you? Wouldn’t that be a clue telling you that you were the one with the “sick” idea?
There are no universal morals, IMO. We do have to set certain standards to ensure we can all live together relatively peacefully, which is were laws come in, but even those standards aren’t identical all over the world. Humans will never have a unified opinion, and showing tolerance with people who have opposing views is essential if you want to live a peaceful life. Even if you are in the majority, it only means that a lot of people feel the same as you, not that it is universally true or correct.
Personally, I like loli characters in bishoujo games (though the ones in Noirbo’s link are almost too young-looking, even for me. Almost ). That doesn’t make me a pedophile, and even after playing loads of bishoujo games, I haven’t the faintest desire to run around molesting little girls. No more than I want to chainsaw people after playing GTA: VC.
If you want to censor anything that depicts something potentially harmful, you might as well just stare at the wall. People have no problem watching shows depicting brains being splattered across the wall, but want to ban games (<-- works of fiction) showing the love between a guy and a girl who has been drawn to look like she could be younger than the legal age for sexual intercourse in the country you live in? It’s hypocricy, but most people don’t want to admit it.
I’m not telling people to like everything they see. Heck, I hate rape-themed games with a vengeance, but if people want to play them, fine.
Anyone saying a game with a fictious, minor-looking cartoon character engaged in sexual intercourse due to mutual consent is sicker than a game containing mass murder of innocent people is the sick one, IMO.
You’re free to disagree, but try to avoid being a hypocrite. And by that, I don’t mean that liking fictious violence over fictious rape (or vice versa) is hypocricy, but thinking one of them is “evil” but the other is “good” or even “ok” IS.
But there are lots of games for kids that contain no violence or sex or anything bad. I’m sure those will be a big hit amongst the game fans of the world. Because that’s what you might get if you advocate censorship of fictious works. They might agree with you and ban lolicon games today, but will you still applaud them when they ban the games YOU like tomorrow?
[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 03-31-2004).]
