quote:I've seen this one turn all the way around in my lifetime. When I was in school only the "rich" kids who attended prep schools wore uniforms. It was a mark of class distinction. Parochial schoolkids had them to reinforce the separation from public school children who were "undisciplined" and bad influences. Now with the public schools adopting uniforms, the tables are turned. Uniforms appear to be a tool of social engineering.
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Oh most things are circular in occurance, which only proves to me Einstein, Hawking, someone, was right when they said time is not linear but circular our short life spans only make it seem linear.
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
I've seen this one turn all the way around in my lifetime. When I was in school only the "rich" kids who attended prep schools wore uniforms. It was a mark of class distinction. Parochial schoolkids had them to reinforce the separation from public school children who were "undisciplined" and bad influences. Now with the public schools adopting uniforms, the tables are turned. Uniforms appear to be a tool of social engineering.
They way they are using uniforms I always thought it was for social control. A very subtle form of teaching a clear line between those with power, in this case the teachers, and those without, the students, or perhaps with the tables turned it should be those with power as the rich and those without power as everyone else.
My private school was Quaker and they banned uniforms something close to 100 years before I got there, yeah school has been around a while, just celebrated some upper 240 something birthday last year. They actually taught us that they gave up on uniforms when they learned others thought they were using them as a form of social control. So to this day rightly or wrongly whenever I always see school's suddenly embracing the idea of uniforms I remember that lecture they gave and think it's nothing more then a form of subjugation to the existing power structure, said differently, a form of social control.
[edit] replaced a word with the correct word.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-14-2004).]
quote:And that's different from most other aspects of schools how?
Originally posted by SCDawg:
They way they are using uniforms I always thought it was for social control. A very subtle form of teaching a clear line between those with power, in this case the teachers, and those without, the students, or perhaps with the tables turned it should be those with power as the rich and those without power as everyone else.My private school was Quaker and they banned uniforms something close to 100 years before I got there, yeah school has been around a while, just celebrated some upper 240 something birthday last year. They actually taught us that they gave up on uniforms when they learned others thought they were using them as a form of social control. So to this day rightly or wrongly whenever I always see school's suddenly embracing the idea of uniforms I remember that lecture they gave and think it's nothing more then a form of subjugation to the existing power structure, said differently, a form of social control.
[edit] replaced a word with the correct word.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-14-2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Jinnai:
And that's different from most other aspects of schools how?
Most other aspects you can rebel against on some level. If you don't want their lunch bring your own, if you don't want to eat in the lunch room eat in class, yeah some of it can get you in trouble, but you can still rebel against other parts a lot easier then uniforms.
Not wearing your uniform, according once more to the local paper, is a detition first offenese, suspension second offense. So it is not easy to rebel against this, other aspects you can and in so doing reduce the amount of social control influence by the fact you only have to pretend to follow them when the camera is on, so to speak. Uniforms are by far one of the greatest forms of social control since they also strip you of some individuality.
There’s another aspect to mandating school uniforms that goes beyond maintaining discipline within the shool. I think it’s a way to impose social equality outside the classroom by eliminating any outward sign of privilege and breaking down economic class distinctions. That’s what I referred to by the term social engineering which seems to appeal to high-minded administrators with a PC mindset. They tried the same idea in China, pre-Cultural Revolution, by forcing everyone to dress alike in Mao suits, both laborers and intellectuals.
[This message has been edited by perigee (edited 08-15-2004).]
Since this discussion just broke down into a uniform vs no uniform in schools argument, let’s do a quick count: how many of you went to a school that required uniforms?
As for myself, I had to wear uniforms for 12 years of elementary/middel/high school and I don’t have any regrets nor complains. As for the general population, most students didn’t argue on that either, though some tries to get away on things like pants style and (in case of girls) the length of their skirts (BTW, they didn’t have sailor-type uniforms, just a shirt and plaid skirts). And, one day per school year, they let us wear anything (well, not ANYTHING, but you know what I mean), instead of uniforms. It was fun, but, at the end, most people went back to uniforms without any complains.
well ive never even seen any school that have uniforms , dont think they use that at any schools in denmark…
None of the schools I went to required a uniform. You just had to dress properly. The closest I’ve had of a uniform was the first secundary school I’ve been to, where you could only wear dark shades.
My school had a dress code, not a uniform. We weren’t allowed to wear short shorts/skirts, no shirts with swear words printed on them, etc. Some parts of the dress code were lame (like ‘no beards or mustaches’).
quote:
Originally posted by hentaidk:
well ive never even seen any school that have uniforms , dont think they use that at any schools in denmark...
Well, here in Scandinavia, I don't think the use of school uniforms have existed for quite some time. School Uniforms are more commonly found in the US and Asia, I think...
quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
Well, here in Scandinavia, I don't think the use of school uniforms have existed for quite some time. School Uniforms are more commonly found in the US and Asia, I think...
It was suggested here in Norway a few years back. The reason was that some schools started experiencing problems with kids from less wealthy families/single parents being bullied by other kids over the clothing they wore. Kids from families that could afford it, often wore more expensive clothes and the latest fashions. These kids tended to converge, and then start picking on those who couldn't afford to get such clothes.
One suggestion to alleviate that was to start using school uniforms here. Thankfully, it never happened. I think the general consensus was that it was a threat to the students' individuality, that forcing them too all "be the same" was counterproductive.
Norway has few private schools (especially at grade/junior high level), so kids from all kinds of families get the same education here. Norway, and the other Scandinavian countries I believe, aren't divided into social classes like for instance Great Britain is, so tensions like these are rather rare. Also, the concept of school uniforms just seems to be completely against the overall culture here, which is far more relaxed.
Wow, is this off-topic or what...
[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 08-16-2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
IOne suggestion to alleviate that was to start using school uniforms here. Thankfully, it never happened. I think the general consensus was that it was a threat to the students' individuality, that forcing them too all "be the same" was counterproductive.
Precisely what I was thinking individuality is a major key to growth.
No, neither the public school I attended nor the private required uniforms, though I hear that public school district is now thinking of enforcing uniforms.
I attended public school in various upper middle-class neighborhoods and as far as I can remember, dress codes were unusually lax. At my highschool you could wear t-shirts with swears or sex jokes on and as long as the principal didn’t notice you were pretty much set to go. I could even get away with wearing big spiked bracelets. Maybe because of this, uniforms appeal to me–I think they’re really cute and have an innocent look to them. If I’d been forced to wear one, no doubt I’d have grumbled about it and gotten in trouble for making alterations.
As far as lolicon goes, I don’t see anything wrong with it as long as it stays within the confines of b-games/anime/fantasy/whatever. I’ve always felt that legality is a separate issue from morality, as long as you’re not HURTING anyone. So in b-games, I don’t mind seeing lolis at all–just catering to another preference is all.
quote:Sorry, i didn't phrase my question quite right...how are school uniforms different than any other social engineering the schools do that isn't volunatary?
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Most other aspects you can rebel against on some level. If you don't want their lunch bring your own, if you don't want to eat in the lunch room eat in class, yeah some of it can get you in trouble, but you can still rebel against other parts a lot easier then uniforms.Not wearing your uniform, according once more to the local paper, is a detition first offenese, suspension second offense. So it is not easy to rebel against this, other aspects you can and in so doing reduce the amount of social control influence by the fact you only have to pretend to follow them when the camera is on, so to speak. Uniforms are by far one of the greatest forms of social control since they also strip you of some individuality.
My school did not have unfiroms in it, but my school was also a fairly backwater place as well.
[This message has been edited by Jinnai (edited 08-18-2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Jinnai:
Sorry, i didn't phrase my question quite right...how are school uniforms different than any other social engineering the schools do that isn't volunatary?
My school did not have unfiroms in it, but my school was also a fairly backwater place as well.
[This message has been edited by Jinnai (edited 08-18-2004).]
Because school uniforms make you all the same. If you line people up, and looked only at their clothing you could not tell one person from another, it's a lot like the army. One of the first things they do is strip you of individuality by sticking you in the same clothes as everyone else, of course the army takes it further then the schools are legally allowed.
They can force people to eat at the same time but not the same meal, they can force people to cover their books but not use the same cover, they can force people to take classes but not pay attention, there is much they can force that allows the individual the freedom to choose how they will follow that rule.
Uniforms give you no choice. It's a white shirt with tie and black pants for boys, navy blue skirt and white blouse for girls (or something like that) and each and everyone must have the same shade and I think they went so far as to say belt color for the boys. More then anything uniforms give you one way to do it and only one way to do it, and that is why it is a greatest form of social control, you strip people of both individuality and freedom, and if someone is to dare to wear anything but a uniform they are often made a public example of in their punishment to show how individuality is wrong, at least that is the implicit message.
All other forms allow for some expression of individuality that cannot be punished that allows you to stand out from your neighbor and cry that "I'm different"!
Did that answer you question?
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-18-2004).]
quote:Not nessarily. They can force you to take classes and pay attention or fail. You can of course chose not to pay attention, but you can also chose to go to school without a uniform...you just pay the conquences.
Originally posted by SCDawg:
They can force people to eat at the same time but not the same meal, they can force people to cover their books but not use the same cover, they can force people to take classes but not pay attention, there is much they can force that allows the individual the freedom to choose how they will follow that rule.Uniforms give you no choice. It's a white shirt with tie and black pants for boys, navy blue skirt and white blouse for girls (or something like that) and each and everyone must have the same shade and I think they went so far as to say belt color for the boys. More then anything uniforms give you one way to do it and only one way to do it, and that is why it is a greatest form of social control, you strip people of both individuality and freedom, and if someone is to dare to wear anything but a uniform they are often made a public example of in their punishment to show how individuality is wrong, at least that is the implicit message.
All other forms allow for some expression of individuality that cannot be punished that allows you to stand out from your neighbor and cry that "I'm different"!
They can force you to take standarized tests to pass to the next grade as well...and that even allows less squiggle room than uniforms. In uniforms there is usually some leway, but when your reduced to numbers and bullets...that is far more influential in social engineering than anything else if everyone must pass the same exact test, reguardless or race, class, or gender (and for the most part IQ). They can restict the music you listen to (by FE not allowing walkmans or portable cd players).
And teachers can in some areas like my school if they felt like it make you use them same book covers, make you eat virtually the same food (yes you could bring it as i did, but 95% didn't), etc. I think you underestimate how pervasive other forms of social engineering in schools can be.
Believe me public schools are allowed a lot more leway than you can believe. My school sytem, and i graduated less than a decade ago, allowed for paddling (with a baseball bat) without parents permission even whne most places won't. That's just to an example to show the power public schools can have if they feel they need to and that can extend to social engineering.
And social engineering does not have to be so overt either. In fact the best form is when the person isn't aware at all there is any form of social engineering going on, such as the values of sharing and whatnot kids are taught early on in schools as well as home.
[This message has been edited by Jinnai (edited 08-18-2004).]
Sorry not as short as I had hoped it would be, again sorry.
quote:
Originally posted by Jinnai:
Not nessarily. They can force you to take classes and pay attention or fail. You can of course chose not to pay attention, but you can also chose to go to school without a uniform…you just pay the conquences.
Yes but it is your choice to go and fail, by law you have to go to school, but no law says you have to pass, so if you go without the uniform you can be suspended and have to make that time up, no choice involved. You can choose to fail you cannot choose not to go or blow off the time that you are suspended. Well actually you can but if you are caught it’s back in the school if not a juvenile hall for delinquency. I also never said fail, there are people I am friends with that made their educational lifetimes from studying away from the teacher and not listening in class, to quote I think it was Mark Twain “I never let my schooling interfere with my education”. They don’t fail because they don’t pay attention at all times, sometimes not paying attention is far more helpful.
quote:
They can force you to take standardized tests to pass to the next grade as well…and that even allows less squiggle room than uniforms.
Actually they cannot, I know first hand because people in my school protested against the CAT’s and were allowed out of them with no consequences. Unless you mean that asinine idea Bush has about no child left behind in which people are taught to the test and nothing else, but that is another topic.
quote:
In uniforms there is usually some leway, but when your reduced to numbers and bullets…that is far more influential in social engineering than anything else if everyone must pass the same exact test, reguardless or race, class, or gender (and for the most part IQ).
Actually there is none in this school system you wear the one they tell you to or you will fall behind through detention or suspension and perhaps if you say screw you to their uniforms enough times summer school. They ain’t playing around here, and I still say, tests mean dick, give me a book on math give me one month and I could pass any type of standardized test based on that book that you sit for a year in class to prepare for, they don’t tell people anything and anyone can pass them that is not social engineering, that is a way to make it look like schools care when if fact I don’t think many do care. Or do you mean European schools where I hear these tests are more meaningful and aren’t all that standarized?
quote:
They can restict the music you listen to (by FE not allowing walkmans or portable cd players).
Several State Supreme Courts have ruled that illegal, since believe it or not some students charged it was a violation of the Civil Rights to deny them the freedom to listen to music while on school grounds. So long as it is on headphones and so long a it is not disruptive to other students, meaning most likely not during class they cannot prevent it so that power is no longer with some school districts.
quote:
And teachers can in some areas like my school if they felt like it make you use them same book covers, make you eat virtually the same food (yes you could bring it as i did, but 95% didn’t), etc. I think you underestimate how pervasive other forms of social engineering in schools can be.
Virtually the same is not the same as identically the same. They did not march you into the lunch room, give you assigned seats, prohibit you from talking to your neighbor, place a plate down in front of you and refuse to allow anyone to leave until each plate is clean did they?
If they did that I agree that is part of social control and engineering but offering you choices, albeit the same choices to everyone and semi limited, is no different then going into Wendy’s and having to choose something off their menu. That too is limited since I cannot order anything I want from them such as French Onion soup and sundried tomato pasta with a light red pepper and pesto sauce. So limiting your choices in a lunch room still allows you to choose and just because 95% CHOOSE to not bring their lunch does not mean they do not have that right.
quote:
Believe me public schools are allowed a lot more leway than you can believe. My school sytem, and i graduated less than a decade ago, allowed for paddling (with a baseball bat) without parents permission even whne most places won’t.
So you did not go to school in the states since that has been illegal for many years and if you took that school district to court you might have at least embarrassed them royally while perhaps winning some money.
quote:
That’s just to an example to show the power public schools can have if they feel they need to and that can extend to social engineering.
Once again though that violates the law, much as the random locker searches they wanted to preform at my middle school violated the 8th Amendment and you know that fact was challenged and the school system lost. Students were able to bring in their own locks and deny the school system access to their lockers. So if they are doing something like that challenge them fight them, as said it was done in middle school, last year I spent in public, and you will be amazed how shaky the legal ground they stand on is for most of what they try to enforce about students.
quote:
And social engineering does not have to be so overt either. In fact the best form is when the person isn’t aware at all there is any form of social engineering going on, such as the values of sharing and whatnot kids are taught early on in schools as well as home.
Oh most of it is not overt, over 90% of it is subtle, singing the national anthem, saying the pledge of allegiance, no one suspects that but it is social engineering so are uniforms which people so embrace as a wonderful idea to lessen violence. Sure, when quietly giving up individuality and taking the one route that offers no choice whatsoever since it could be worse the failing, it could be a smear on your record that would prevent even a local college that admits anyone with bad grades (if you choose to fail your classes) from taking you in someday.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-18-2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Sorry not as short as I had hoped it would be, again sorry.[quote] Originally posted by Jinnai:
[b] Not nessarily. They can force you to take classes and pay attention or fail. You can of course chose not to pay attention, but you can also chose to go to school without a uniform...you just pay the conquences.
Yes but it is your choice to go and fail, by law you have to go to school, but no law says you have to pass, so if you go without the uniform you can be suspended and have to make that time up, no choice involved. You can choose to fail you cannot choose not to go or blow off the time that you are suspended. Well actually you can but if you are caught it's back in the school if not a juvenile hall for delinquency. I also never said fail, there are people I am friends with that made their educational lifetimes from studying away from the teacher and not listening in class, to quote I think it was Mark Twain "I never let my schooling interfere with my education". They don't fail because they don't pay attention at all times, sometimes not paying attention is far more helpful.
quote:
They can force you to take standardized tests to pass to the next grade as well...and that even allows less squiggle room than uniforms.
Actually they cannot, I know first hand because people in my school protested against the CAT's and were allowed out of them with no consequences. Unless you mean that asinine idea Bush has about no child left behind in which people are taught to the test and nothing else, but that is another topic.
quote:
In uniforms there is usually some leway, but when your reduced to numbers and bullets...that is far more influential in social engineering than anything else if everyone must pass the same exact test, reguardless or race, class, or gender (and for the most part IQ).
Actually there is none in this school system you wear the one they tell you to or you will fall behind through detention or suspension and perhaps if you say screw you to their uniforms enough times summer school. They ain't playing around here, and I still say, tests mean dick, give me a book on math give me one month and I could pass any type of standardized test based on that book that you sit for a year in class to prepare for, they don't tell people anything and anyone can pass them that is not social engineering, that is a way to make it look like schools care when if fact I don't think many do care. Or do you mean European schools where I hear these tests are more meaningful and aren't all that standarized?
quote:
They can restict the music you listen to (by FE not allowing walkmans or portable cd players).
Several State Supreme Courts have ruled that illegal, since believe it or not some students charged it was a violation of the Civil Rights to deny them the freedom to listen to music while on school grounds. So long as it is on headphones and so long a it is not disruptive to other students, meaning most likely not during class they cannot prevent it so that power is no longer with some school districts.
quote:
And teachers can in some areas like my school if they felt like it make you use them same book covers, make you eat virtually the same food (yes you could bring it as i did, but 95% didn't), etc. I think you underestimate how pervasive other forms of social engineering in schools can be.
Virtually the same is not the same as identically the same. They did not march you into the lunch room, give you assigned seats, prohibit you from talking to your neighbor, place a plate down in front of you and refuse to allow anyone to leave until each plate is clean did they?
If they did that I agree that is part of social control and engineering but offering you choices, albeit the same choices to everyone and semi limited, is no different then going into Wendy's and having to choose something off their menu. That too is limited since I cannot order anything I want from them such as French Onion soup and sundried tomato pasta with a light red pepper and pesto sauce. So limiting your choices in a lunch room still allows you to choose and just because 95% CHOOSE to not bring their lunch does not mean they do not have that right.
quote:
Believe me public schools are allowed a lot more leway than you can believe. My school sytem, and i graduated less than a decade ago, allowed for paddling (with a baseball bat) without parents permission even whne most places won't.
So you did not go to school in the states since that has been illegal for many years and if you took that school district to court you might have at least embarrassed them royally while perhaps winning some money.
quote:
That's just to an example to show the power public schools can have if they feel they need to and that can extend to social engineering.
Once again though that violates the law, much as the random locker searches they wanted to preform at my middle school violated the 4th Amendment and you know that fact was challenged and the school system lost. Students were able to bring in their own locks and deny the school system access to their lockers. So if they are doing something like that challenge them fight them, as said it was done in middle school, last year I spent in public, and you will be amazed how shaky the legal ground they stand on is for most of what they try to enforce about students.
quote:
And social engineering does not have to be so overt either. In fact the best form is when the person isn't aware at all there is any form of social engineering going on, such as the values of sharing and whatnot kids are taught early on in schools as well as home.
Oh most of it is not overt, over 90% of it is subtle, singing the national anthem, saying the pledge of allegiance, no one suspects that but it is social engineering so are uniforms which people so embrace as a wonderful idea to lessen violence. Sure, when quietly giving up individuality and taking the one route that offers no choice whatsoever since it could be worse the failing, it could be a smear on your record that would prevent even a local college that admits anyone with bad grades (if you choose to fail your classes) from taking you in someday.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-18-2004).][/b] [/quote]
After hearing all this contention about school policies and attempts to enforce conformity, I’m reminded of Jerry Farber’s treatise from the 60’s, Student as Ni**er. If you haven’t seen this antiestablishment publication that became the students’ manifesto for the 70’s, it’s a fun read. Believe it or not, it was required reading in our classroom where the teacher encouraged a freethinking outlook.
Here’s the short version of SAN.
quote:
There is a kind of castration that goes on in schools. It begins before school years with parents’ first encroachments on their children’s free unashamed sexuality and continues right up to the day when they hand you your doctoral diploma with a bleeding, shriveled pair of testicles stapled to the parchment.
[This message has been edited by perigee (edited 08-18-2004).]
quote:Yes and it is something that is a form of social engineering and is manditory.
Actually they cannot, I know first hand because people in my school protested against the CAT's and were allowed out of them with no consequences. Unless you mean that asinine idea Bush has about no child left behind in which people are taught to the test and nothing else, but that is another topic.
quote:
They can restict the music you listen to (by FE not allowing walkmans or portable cd players).
Several State Supreme Courts have ruled that illegal, since believe it or not some students charged it was a violation of the Civil Rights to deny them the freedom to listen to music while on school grounds. So long as it is on headphones and so long a it is not disruptive to other students, meaning most likely not during class they cannot prevent it so that power is no longer with some school districts.[/b]/quote]Well not our state supreme court. And since the federal court hasn't...so maybe where you are they can't do that, but they can here.
quote:Nope. They have some powerful lawyers too. I heard someone did bring them to court once but not only was it tied up, the lawyers put the parents under enough counter-litigation to last for years.
So you did not go to school in the states since that has been illegal for many years and if you took that school district to court you might have at least embarrassed them royally while perhaps winning some money.
quote:Not here. And not in the courts because the lockers are not the property of ths students, like company email isn't the property of the recipient.
Once again though that violates the law, much as the random locker searches they wanted to preform at my middle school violated the 8th Amendment and you know that fact was challenged and the school system lost.
quote:They usually don't but they had cut locks before, but always with warnings that anyone with locks during a certain period could have their's cut. Again they had some good lawyers. I think they said they'd compensate for the locks if nothing illegal was found and the only time they did that was when they had the local athorities with them.
[b]Students were able to bring in their own locks and deny the school system access to their lockers. So if they are doing something like that challenge them fight them, as said it was done in middle school, last year I spent in public, and you will be amazed how shaky the legal ground they stand on is for most of what they try to enforce about students.[b]
[This message has been edited by Jinnai (edited 08-18-2004).]