http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?fl20040427zg.htm
Need to run in a sec. I’ll post my comment a bit later.
PHI
Without knowing what your comment will be I think this is a slightly good rebuttal to the article you posted. It basically states it is not abuse so long as it is on film and not real life and I frankly agree, unless we eventually have thought police no one can be convicted of any crime they only committ in their mind.
Let people think what they want and do want they want in their head and in real life so long as no harm is brought to another person. By all means don’t have a move to restrict such things as Sumiko Shimizu thinks is a good restriction, frankly I agree more with Hiroki Azuma as previously stated. Anyway the article below I think is a slight rebuttal and somewhat mirrors my thinking on this issue.
I also agree with the Sociologist quotes there and to perhaps go a little further I think to stop this sort of thing would be to end the on going change in a society. Yes bad things might happen, but what society has changed without bad things happening along the way?
http://childofmana.tripod.com/s-p_theory.htm
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 04-27-2004).]
The only problem with all this is that most people CAN’T make the distinction between fantasy and real life.
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
The only problem with all this is that most people CAN'T make the distinction between fantasy and real life.
If that statement was true, more than 150 000 people would have been killed by GTA3 players in my country alone (4.8 million citizens). And my 13 year old cousin would have been a killer now. But, guess what, no GTA related killings have happened in Norway. Maybe that's because we're just smarter than everyone else, but I kinda doubt that.
That statement is so generalizing and wrong that I'd just love to see you find actual proof of it being true.
[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 04-27-2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
If that statement was true, more than 150 000 people would have been killed by GTA3 players in my country alone (4.8 million citizens). And my 13 year old cousin would have been a killer now. But, guess what, no GTA related killings have happened in Norway. Maybe that's because we're just smarter than everyone else, but I kinda doubt that.That statement is so generalizing and wrong that I'd just love to see you find actual proof of it being true.
I agree with you entirely. I don't think that any links have been found connecting games, TV, movies, books, comics, etc, to real life crimes. This argument is usually used by the pro-censorship brigade, who then fail to back it up with any evidence apart from occasionally some very
shakey theoretical studies. It is also the darling theory of the press, who just love "Street Fighter II killed my son!" type headlines. It sells more newspapers. Also if there were direct links, surely the crime rate would experience a rise whenever a popular violent film or game was released. I don't think that it does.
With regards to the article, the attitude of EPCAT (who are they?) is confusing. They say that child porn producers have moved on to anime and adults dressed as children. Isn't that a good thing? It would seem that they don't think so. It seems like they are running on a theory that all paedophiles will suddenly cease to exist if lolicon is banned. They won't. IMHO lolicon allows a safe (and legal) outlet for people who like that sort of thing. What happens when people have no safe outlet for sexual feelings? Higher than average amounts of sex crimes happen, and that is an argument that can be backed with statistics.
[This message has been edited by dco_chris (edited 04-27-2004).]
Well, look at soaps. Whenever a couple marries in the show, people send them letters congratulating them on it… even though soaps are FICTION.
That’s a good example right there.
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
Well, look at soaps. Whenever a couple marries in the show, people send them letters congratulating them on it... even though soaps are FICTION.
That's a good example right there.
Different crowd of people, different type of people. I don't think you will find many people that watch soap operas playing Vice City as one example.
Too much of a generalization to say because one group does it all other groups think what is fiction is real. Besides they might know it is fiction and still send the letters, there is a big difference between writing them to your favorite characters and believing those people are real. It's not certain all of those that write think they are real people.
By that logic though are Star Trek fans that dress as Klingons and in Starfleet Uniforms really saying they believe they are either Klingon or part of Starfleet?
Same general idea goes with the anime, manga idea. That is people might, as the article or link I give says, have crushes in their minds and within their minds desire these characters to be real, but so long as part of them knows these actions should not take place and therefore do not take place in real life, who cares what they think in their mind and who cares if they have a crush on a anime or manga character? People cannot always explain why these things happen to characters but once more who cares why they do so long as no one trys to make this real or realize it cannot be real?
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 04-27-2004).]
I am one of those “closet” anime and b-game fans. I’m not ashamed by it, but at the same time I won’t flaunt my little hobby. I’ve seen people in the street who wore absurd t-shirt with words like “American Otaku” and “Looking for a japanese girlfriend (in Japanese)”. Worst I remembered once I saw a dude with Multi’s (To Heart) head on his sweatshirt. I almost literally ran the other way. If a person like me has such sentiment, it’s not hard to see why the society (an American one, no less) sees anime fans as weirdos.
Sorry for the digression, but I fail to see how an average person will not discriminate b-game fans. The photo in the Japan Times article is disturbing. Again, I have seen a pic in which four Asian males holding life-size cushions of various loli characters. Yes, it’s not a crime to have those accessories. But I sure as hell won’t want to negotiate a business deal with those people.
I know I’m stereotyping people. It is wrong and unjust. But sadly my professional experience has taught me one thing; perception is reality. We all can get into a big philosophical debate on this topic. At the end of the day nothing will change.
Does lolicon promote deviate behavior? Who knows? Academic and policy studies are pointless because researches on such topic are not scientific. Social acceptance is going to be the mainsay on this debate. Regretably otakus are, on average, not the most articulate looking folks around.
I’m not bashing b-game fans. Heck I am one of them. It is just that I have interacted with so many non-anime people I know how what their attitudes are about “Japanese animation.”
PHI
Well, whatever anyone says…
Look at the American society. Then look at the Japanese society. Americans have accepted violence in their media, Japanese have accepted ecchi and lolicon in theirs.
Which of those two countries seems more f***** up, when you look at crime, both sexual and regular (violence, theft etc)? I’ve always been a supporter of the “look yourself in the mirror before condemning others” mentality. Until Japan gets a higher rate of sexual and violent crime, the USA (and other countries) should be careful about pointing accusing fingers at their culture.
I’m not saying that Japan is some kind of utopia without any social problems whatsoever, because I know they have their share. But I don’t think adapting the kind of society the USA has (violence ok, sex bad!!) will help them any.
[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 04-28-2004).]
The problem with relaying on saying what is socially acceptable and what is not, is that idea is something that can change in a matter seconds and changes so frequently it is not a good measure either, or least that is what I think but there is also the idea of trying something new, expanding your horizons but no one does that at least in the U.S. unless it has violence in the game it seems.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 04-28-2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
The problem with relaying on saying what is socially acceptable and what is something that can change in a matter second and changes so frequently it is not a good measure either, or least that is what I think but there is also the idea of trying something new, expanding your horizons but no one does that at least in the U.S. unless it has violence in the game it seems.
I think it the US wants flashy 'gimics' or 'macho' stuff. They make games to 'show off'
to your friends not stuff to be played with your friends.
Not Nintendo and Sega, that’s for sure.
quote:
Originally posted by woodelf:
I think it the US wants flashy 'gimics' or 'macho' stuff. They make games to 'show off'
to your friends not stuff to be played with your friends.
Part of what I think has become the American Dream, who cares if it breaks in two days, who cares if the SUV looks like a cross between an assualt transport and an Enterpise Shuttlecraft only getting less then a mile a gallon, it is the 'in' thing and if I have it I am better then you. Not my way of thinking but I know those that do think that way. So yeah I can see there being more to the flash and glitz then good story to share idea, but does that explain why people are against these types of games?
quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
Well, whatever anyone says...Look at the American society. Then look at the Japanese society. Americans have accepted violence in their media, Japanese have accepted ecchi and lolicon in theirs.
Which of those two countries seems more f***** up, when you look at crime, both sexual and regular (violence, theft etc)? I've always been a supporter of the "look yourself in the mirror before condemning others" mentality. Until Japan gets a higher rate of sexual and violent crime, the USA (and other countries) should be careful about pointing accusing fingers at their culture.
I'm not saying that Japan is some kind of utopia without any social problems whatsoever, because I know they have their share. But I don't think adapting the kind of society the USA has (violence ok, sex bad!!) will help them any.
[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 04-28-2004).]
Crime in the United States is much higher than that reported to police but has probably not increased over the past 20 years.
Estimated crime rates are a bad news, good news story. The bad news is that the total crime rate in the United States is much higher than the crimes reported to police. The good news is that the estimated violent crime rate has declined slightly for 20 years and the estimated property crime rate has declined sharply since 1980. Moreover, that pattern is more consistent with the reported murder rate, a crime for which the reporting is most accurate and a consistent series is available for many decades. The reported murder rate has been roughly stable for 20 years and is now about the same as it was in the 1920s and 1930s.
quote:
Originally posted by Vaga42Bond:
Crime in the United States is much higher than that reported to police but has probably not increased over the past 20 years.Estimated crime rates are a bad news, good news story. The bad news is that the total crime rate in the United States is much higher than the crimes reported to police. The good news is that the estimated violent crime rate has declined slightly for 20 years and the estimated property crime rate has declined sharply since 1980. Moreover, that pattern is more consistent with the reported murder rate, a crime for which the reporting is most accurate and a consistent series is available for many decades. The reported murder rate has been roughly stable for 20 years and is now about the same as it was in the 1920s and 1930s.
^_^; Ok....
My point was just that the view many Americans have, "sex in media is the root to all evil" could be considered Americans just fooling themselves, seeing as USA is certainly the one with the most serious social problems when compared to Japan.
quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
^_^; Ok....My point was just that the view many Americans have, "sex in media is the root to all evil" could be considered Americans just fooling themselves, seeing as USA is certainly the one with the most serious social problems when compared to Japan.
See I blame, well not to open a can of worms but I put some large amount of blame on the church for this one. They are always out there telling people in this nation to repress ideas of sex, because they always say sex can be a 'sin' and also they are quick to add that so much about it is 'sinful', even though without it none of them would be here to argue this point.
Anyway, that irony and sarcasm aside, at the same time they often and are openly neglecting to tell people not to kill and instead openly and fully backing the idea of killing for 'God and Country'. For a nation that has always been somewhat tied to some church this kind of, in my opinion, warped thinking leads the nation to what it is doing today. Repressing sexual urges while embracing killing for the "good" of 'God and Country'. Shouldn't it be the other way around, embrace sex and repress the urge to kill?
Still, all in all not much has changed in over 800 years has it, only the words went from 'King and Country' to 'God and Country'.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 04-29-2004).]