D3 Games: interesting possibilities

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#21

Let’s see…

RPG = roleplaying game
CRPG = computer roleplaying game

However, a CRPG isn’t a roleplaying game? I must have divided by 0 or something…

But I suppose haggling over the definition of an RPG is rather fruitless anyway. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Still, there are games like Legend of Legaia (I didn’t say GOOD games necessarily) where you can choose from dialogue options that allow you to personalize the character’s personality, yet don’t really alter the story. Are these games also not RPG’s, by your definition?

#22
quote:
Bah. People are always ranting about the "good old days" when story and gameplay were valued above all else. You know what I think? The "good old days" weren't that great; people just have selective memories. Gameplay wasn't necessarily "good"; it was just simplistic. If you equate the two, then good for you. I've played a lot of the "classic" SNES games, and I admit they can be fun. But in scope, variation, and complexity they fall far short of modern games.

Times haven't changed that much. We now have the movie problem. In the old days there was almost no innovation.
The presentation is just different. I like modern RPGs. I like retro RPGs. Retro RPGs don't always have as complex a plot as modern games, but that doesn't make it less epic. There is no other console RPG that made me cry and burst in tears than Lufia and The fortress of Doom. The Phantasy Star series is quite epic and the games are actually connected (just like with Lufia). Modern RPG series that do this are rare.
Now, battle system, that's where the modern RPG has its main advantages. Today's technology allow more variety. Retro RPGs tried something new once in a while, but stayed true to a basic formula.
Both have advantages and disadvantages. If the battle system of a modern RPG is too variable and not well conceived, it tears the game apart. Retro RPGs' battle systems can get a bit tedious if it's too simplistic.

Really, times haven't changed that much. Both have their gems.

quote:
PSO: on just about every platform DC/XBOX (with... *gasp* actual online)

Not an excuse for the fact that it's on the GameCube and not on PS2, which is my main point.
quote:
LK: a card game? You're kidding, right?
Baten Kaitos: Another card game? Hello? thought we were talking RPG's...

I fail to see why everyone dismisses games having cards like crap and not real games. So what, we change weapons into cards and it's not an RPG? Give me a break...
quote:
SoAL: played on DC

Skies of Arcadia is on Dreamcast, not Skies of Arcadia Legends. Skies of Arcadia Legends has significant extras and a lower monster encounter rate.
quote:
Tales: coming to a PS2 near you.

Wrong. It's only on PS2 in Japan, and it's not coming to a PS2 near you.
quote:
Zelda... Not an RPG... Great action/adventure title, but not an RPG...

Sorry dude, just because the battle system is replaced by actual action doesn't make it any less RPG.
quote:
Megaman? LOL....

So what? It's an okay game.
quote:
... which is why older game reviews used to carefully mark games as 'CRPG's, because they were NOT rpgs! Dragon Warrior is NOT a role-playing game!

Well, if you really want an RPG with decisions that impact on the story, get Tales of Symphonia. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
#23

There’s nothing intrinsically bad about the other styles of gameplay, including the very linear cutscene ones. I just want some proper terminology to distinguish them!

Dragon Warrior, Diablo, Knights of the Old Republic, and Final Fantasy Whatever (I can’t remember which one I played, but it was AMAZINGLY linear…) are in vastly different genres. If someone just says some console game is “an RPG” then that doesn’t help me know what kind of game it is at all.

Even KOTOR isn’t the same kind of RPG as a good old tabletop one.

#24
quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
There's nothing intrinsically bad about the other styles of gameplay, including the very linear cutscene ones. I just want some proper terminology to distinguish them!

Dragon Warrior, Diablo, Knights of the Old Republic, and Final Fantasy Whatever (I can't remember which one I played, but it was AMAZINGLY linear...) are in vastly different genres. If someone just says some console game is "an RPG" then that doesn't help me know what kind of game it is at all.

Even KOTOR isn't the same kind of RPG as a good old tabletop one.

Okay.

Dragon Warrior: old-school (Japanese) RPG
Diablo: action (or hack-and-slash) RPG
Knights of the Old Republic: American RPG (yeah Canadian...same difference [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img])
Final Fantasy Whatever: Japanese RPG
tabletop D&D: roleplaying game (not RPG [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img])

There. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] That's how I think of them, anyway.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-22-2004).]

#25
quote:
Final Fantasy Whatever: Japanese RPG

I would like to change that. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

FF I-VI: Japanese RPG
FF VII+: Extremely Linear Japanese RPG

#26

… then there’s also the old party-based computer RPGs that usually had a first-person dungeon and a party made of faceless collections of stats… then there’s Monstania (which is either a tactical/strategy RPG or a late-Final-Fantasy RPG, because it’s very linear… battle, cutscene, battle, cutscene, repeat until finished. Fun game, but not exactly open to exploration.)…

Anything with characters that have variable stats and equipment gets tagged as being an RPG. Even simple space-shooters have sometimes been described as “having RPG elements” just because you can save up to buy a bigger laser. What’s a bigger laser got to do with role-playing, I ask you? The funny bit is, of course, that tabletop RPG didn’t used to be about role-playing either, and back then, it was called WARGAMING! But nobody wants to call these ‘RPGs’ wargames!

#27

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Sorry dude, just because the battle system is replaced by actual action doesn’t make it any less RPG.
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Actually, yes. Yes it does. In an RPG, the results of actions (not just combat) are primarily based around decisions and character stats. In an action game, the results of actions are primarily based on player reflexes and abilities… the two genres are pretty much diametrically opposed… some games (diablo, champion’s of norrath, etc.) pretty much split the line down the middle, which is why they are called action RPG’s. Zelda passed into “action” and firmly planted it’s feet there, which is why most places categorize it as what it is… an action adventure… the mechanics are action, the gametype is adventure. Most RPG’s are, incidentally most accurately described as RPG/adventure, with most console RPG’s leaning heavily towards the “adventure” side… It’s the “adventure” aspect that Zelda has, not any real RPG aspect…

Incidentally, Champions of Norrath, BG A, etc. are quite firmly action/RPG’s… however, they are NOT action/RPG/adventure… (kinda think of a triangle, adventure games like MYST, day of tentacle, full throttle etc… RPG’s like Morrowind (if you took out the plot), and action like… uhm… ghosts and goblins. In a “pure” RPG you’re pretty much free to do whatever you want, but stats/skills/etc. control how successful your character is at doing whatever… not neccesarily combat. Adventure is the story/exploration/puzzle/item aspect, and action, is, well, running around, dodging, attacking, all based on player abilities… some games, (tales series, star ocean) do a good job of combining all 3 “genres”. Other games only combine 2 (zelda: action/adventure, champions of norrath:action/RPG, FF’s:RPG/Adventure)

[This message has been edited by GnatB (edited 10-22-2004).]

#28

Actually, all the places where I have seen the game mentioned referred to it as an action/RPG. I don’t believe that just because it’s another battle system that it’s another genre. RPGs have more than a battle system. They have dungeons, puzzles, bosses, typical equipment (sword, shield, boots, etc.), are mostly medieval, etc.
This is why I believe Legend of Zelda to be an action/RPG. Even the nameless, customizable main character is there for the role-playing.

#29
quote:
Originally posted by GnatB:
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Sorry dude, just because the battle system is replaced by actual action doesn't make it any less RPG.
----------------------------------

Actually, yes. Yes it does. In an RPG, the results of actions (not just combat) are primarily based around decisions and character stats

First, a technical observation: there is a "reply" button next to posts that you can use to reply. (It's one of those 4 little buttons.)

Second, many action RPGs do have this. They have stats like STR and HP and so forth, and you have equipment that affects your stats. That combined with an RPG-style cinematic flair is enough for me to say it's an RPG.

#30
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
Actually, all the places where I have seen the game mentioned referred to it as an action/RPG. I don't believe that just because it's another battle system that it's another genre. RPGs have more than a battle system. They have dungeons, puzzles, bosses, typical equipment (sword, shield, boots, etc.), are mostly medieval, etc.
This is why I believe Legend of Zelda to be an action/RPG. Even the nameless, customizable main character is there for the role-playing.

IGN, Nintendo, and Gamespot, pretty much the primary sites of interest, all list Legend of Zelda as either action, adventure, or both. None of them show it when you do a search for RPG, or even list it under "RPG"'s. So, no idea where you've been seeing it listed as "RPG", but wherever it is is wrong....

Finally... many games have bosses... most non-rpg's have bosses... bosses are a NON rpg element that many RPG's happen to have.

Puzzles. Yeah, like I said. Adventure.

Items. Again, like I said. Adventure.

Medieval... Uhm.. wow. Guess KOTOR isn't an RPG, and... uhm... ghosts and goblins is...

Dungeons, ok... yeah.. both have dark scary places... Guess that makes quake an RPG too.... oooh, and doesn't it have items and puzzles as well?

Funny, you must have been playing different zelda games... I don't remember Link ever being nameless and customizable. I remember him being a elf dressed in green that primarily uses a sword, shield, with occasional bow/boomerang. Next time through I'll see if I can roll up a diplomat who talks his way out of every fight.

Oh, and you're right. RPG's do have more than a battle system. Like I said, in an RPG, everything, not just combat, is supposed to be based on abilities... lockpicking, talking your way out of trouble, making things, flirting, inspecting, etc. There have been RPG's that don't even HAVE combat in them.... or at least, that have non-combatative ways through every situation.

#31
quote:
Funny, you must have been playing different zelda games... I don't remember Link ever being nameless and customizable. I remember him being a elf dressed in green that primarily uses a sword, shield, with occasional bow/boomerang. Next time through I'll see if I can roll up a diplomat who talks his way out of every fight.

*sigh*
When you start a new game, you can name him. He bears whatever name you want.
His personality is customizable. Anything that goes through his head is yours to choose.
#32
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
*sigh*
When you start a new game, you can name him. He bears whatever name you want.
His personality is customizable. Anything that goes through his head is yours to choose.

"It's dangerous to go alone. Take this! What? No- hey, watch--*CRUNCH*

... w.hy..?"

#33
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
[QUOTE] His personality is customizable. Anything that goes through his head is yours to choose.

LOL! [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] That's great. So now roleplaying is just the absence of a pre-made personality. Well damn, we must have had it all wrong then. Every game we thought was an RPG isn't, and every game we thought wasn't an RPG actually is!

(I don't mean any offense here, Benoit, but you're stretching your arguments pretty thin. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img])

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-24-2004).]

#34

Isn’t Link supposed to be your avatar in the game world? That’s why he has no pre-made personality.

What good is role-playing a character that has a defined personality that leaves no freedom?

This is exactly why Chrono Trigger has Chrono as the main character.

[This message has been edited by Benoit (edited 10-24-2004).]

#35

My point is that roleplaying isn’t just about projecting yourself into a character’s empty shell. It’s just as much “roleplaying” when a character is assigned to you and you have to “be” the character they give you. In acting, you’re given a script and a character to play, and I consider that “roleplaying.” It’s the same deal here.

IMO, games where characters are pre-defined (to some degree) often have a better overall story than games where you’re free to do whatever. If you’re free to do whatever, then it’s hard to design a solid story that consistently gives focus and meaning to the events going on. Pen-and-paper might be different though, since the DM can adapt on-the-fly, but even then spontaneity can ruin the overall consistency of the story, especially when considered in hindsight.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-24-2004).]

#36

Wow.

Uhm, this is inevitably gonna get a lot of disagreement, but here goes.

Roleplaying games aren’t really about story. That would be an adventure game. Your typical “console rpg” is an adventure game with RPG influenced combat mechanics… (which pretty much clarifies the zelda situation… it’s basically a “console rpg” without the RPG influenced combat mechanics, which is pretty much the only RPGish part of most “console RPG’s”.) Now granted, probably 90% of the RPG’s currently out in the market are these “console RPG’s”, so one could, I suppose, argue that the definition of what an RPG is has shifted… But then we end up with two genres that are basically the same thing, with no genre fitting what an RPG really is…
Again, not saying console RPG’s are bad… I’ve probably bought 90% of 'em, and many I enjoyed more than the purer RPG game’s I’ve played… just trying to properly categorize 'em.

#37

I think I’ll stick by my statement of ‘It’s confusing!’

(happily playing the fansubbed Star Ocean 1 atm)

#38

Except that wouldn’t be a fansub, as it doesn’t give you subtitles. Hell, they didn’t even retain the original voices.

Translation.

#39

Fanslation?

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-26-2004).]

#40
quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
I think I'll stick by my statement of 'It's confusing!'

(happily playing the fansubbed Star Ocean 1 atm)

Fannotated. The word is 'fannotated'. It's not a fansub and "scanslate" is for manga.

(Yes, I did make that word up. I'm declaring that game fan translations are "fannotations".)

[This message has been edited by Nandemonai (edited 10-26-2004).]