Dark Translations served with a DMCA notice

When someone invents/creates/etc something, that person (or organization) has exclusive authority over said creation for an extended number of years. That is your reward - for lack of a better word - in being the first to have it, or being creative, or whatever the muse was. Doesn’t matter if it’s drugs, music, writing, programming… that’s how international law and trade agreements work. The creator has the right to make profit and/or control what they created. I see no problem with this. In general, they deserve this privilege. So that the creation cannot be forever withheld from everyone - say it’s the cure to a disease or a wonderful device that makes life better - there’s a time limit on the exclusive control. When this lapses, others can help themselves to the creation.

Unofficial translations violate this general principal. AFTER the time limit has lapsed, they are perfectly fine. UNTIL that happens however, they are illegal. One doesn’t make exceptions against a valid and legit law, because it suddenly goes against what they desire. It’s not impartial, nor is it fair.

No one is saying unofficial translations should be denied: just that they should be legally obeyed. We can have a translation of Yosuga no Sora… but if there’s a C&D, we have to suck it up until the time has passed where the C&D can not be in effect. That’s the law… and again, there’s nothing wrong with that law.One might argue about moral implications if this was the cure to AIDS being withheld… but an eroge? Millions will not die if there’s no Yosuga no Sora in English. :wink:

gasp Are you implying twincest isn’t a vital necessity for life? :stuck_out_tongue:

The thing I hate is that said time limit is completely out of touch with what is reasonable - in this day and age, it really should be about ten years or so, with maybe two years for patents. Decades and decades after the death of the creator is just completely insane.

Those mods for (say) Dragon Age and the like? Unless the company has explicitly committed via some kind of binding license that mods are OK, then they ARE illegal. Just like fanfiction is illegal, even if you 100% write an original story. (Now some games that were released very mod-friendly with modder-targeted toolsets might indeed have some legal boilerplate in the mod tools telling you that it’s OK - but not all games have that.) Just ask the guys who were working on Chrono Trigger in 3D: they got to the point where their project was good enough to show the world, so they did. And then they got C&D’ed.

There’s “technically illegal”, and then there’s what will actually get you into trouble in the real world. Nobody goes after modders. I suppose if you were to make a full conversion of (say) Half Life, in which you play as a white supremacist trying to resurrect Hitler with your harem of child slaves … and you made a point of prominently saying how your game wouldn’t have been possible without Valve writing most of the game for you … then they might take action. But by and large, people leave modders alone because it’s good advertising. The best kind: free.

As for translation patches, specifically what makes them illegal is this section of the Berne convention (which the US, and many others, have all signed). Owning the copyright on something gives you the right to decide who translates it.

I can see both sides of this issue. On the one hand, works that languish in isolation, but for which significant demand exists, suffer under this regime because the language barrier prevents all interested parties from getting to experience them. On the other hand, there is the real possibility of shoddy workmanship ruining a work, and many creators are very anxious about this. Look at the translation problems plaguing old video games, for example. Or look at Nocturnal Illusion, where parts of the script seem to have transliterated some kind of Japanese comic routine verbatim, with no explanation for anyone who doesn’t get it. Or look at the furor over the poor translation of Family Project.

Rumor has it that the Japanese licensor for the Kino’s Journeys novels is pissed off at Tokyopop over the first novel, and has prevented the release of any of the subsequent volumes. This really sucks as a fan, but at the same time, if the licensor is pissed at substandard work, shouldn’t they be able to pull the plug?

They can both be true. Just not in the same thread at the same time. See, if this were the Twincest is Best thread, then yeah, millions of people would die, if this game didn’t get an official English translation. (The moon might crash into the Earth, it’s hard to say.) But this thread is having a mostly-serious conversation about copyright law. So things like “scale” and “common sense” play a bigger part.

[duck]

Well, that would depend on the terms of the license, but no doubt they were able to do it in this case. On the other side, Tokyopop has no doubt put a nonzero amount of effort into this franchise with the expectation of being able to recoup it on sales of later Kino no Tabi volumes. Is it necessarily fair that they should lose this license terms of quality that may not have been all that clearly outlined in the first place?

Kino no Tabi is not exactly Subarashiki Hibi in terms of writing. I would wonder at how substandard the work would have to be for the licensor to prematurely end the license.

The rumor (and it is just a rumor, Tokyopop has confirmed none of it and just said there are ‘issues’) is that they were not pleased that Tokyopop decided to rearrange the chapters to be in chronological order. The original novel was not. Since the particular details of Kino’s backstory were (in the novel) explained only at the end, and the anime followed suit with giving the backstory about a third of the way thru the show (instead of in episode 1), the change (which put the backstory first) did change something.

Of course, whether this is what pissed off the licensor or not, who knows … without actual confirmation, it’s just speculation.

Agreed. But the good news is that for nonprofit translations, a C&D is invalid 7 years after the game is released. The catch though, is that the original owner can use the nonprofit translation, any way they see fit, without paying the nonprofit translator providers a single cent or asking for permission. That and 7 years is still a long time to wait.

Not to go too off topic, but it’s also the reasons of exclusive privilege, that something is better discovered by a public entity or government organization. Privatization is all good and whatnot… but let’s say NASA is a private company. That means whenever NASA Inc. discovers a new phenomena, they could hold “exclusive privilege” over that discovery… but as a government institution, all NASA discoveries are free to the public (hence all those free hi-def pictures of Mars and other galaxies). If the CDC discovers the cure to AIDS, the information is free to everyone… but if Bayer discovers the cure to AIDS, we have to pay Bayer for the info.

Of course, that’s just how things work, and not a fundamental wrong: human nature, after all, is based on the foundation of rewards and punishments,. Thus goes our socioeconomic situation.

And that time is going to keep on getting longer, because Disney forces the government to extend the length of copyright whenever one of their properties nears public domain. If it was created after Steamboat Willie, it might never go out of copyright.

Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the DMCA only apply to Americans? You technically can’t get sued under those laws anywhere else? I’m guessing the DMCA notice was successful since most servers host sites in America. Furthermore it surprises me the DMCA even applies to productions that are not even available for sale in the West.

I thought that was the legal loophole fansubbers and scanslators have been exploiting for years, the lack of knowledge that there is a huge underground demand for this sort of stuff combined with the fact that it isn’t for sale here. I guess globalization has really led to some major disadvantages since now the eroge genre is becoming more than just a footnote in the western PC gaming scene. The average comp savvy person these days knows what an eroge is so it was only a matter of time before the rapelay fiasco etc brought Japanese attention to the vast amounts of predominantly piracy supplied fans in the west.

I agree that legally they are entirely within their rights to C&D every single fan translator in the west. But it seriously is a dick move if you think about it. I think that there is a type of “determinism” associated with this sort of thing. A lot of game developers these days blame their economic mishaps on piracy and many eroge devs in Japan are concerned that fan translations will encourage piracy. But arguing from this point of view in my opinion is illogical. If the fan translators didn’t exist, no one would’ve been buying that game in significant numbers to begin with. Either way they don’t gain anything and pursuing the matter only incurs further legal fees thus increasing the already cutthroat threats to their profit margins. From my point of view it would make more sense to encourage or at least turn a blind eye to westerners trying to translate these games into their own languages. The fansub community is the reason anime and manga was able to expand all over the world and create international demand for it. I seriously doubt anime would be as big as it is today if it wasn’t for fansubs. The eroge industry is stigmatized as porn by the morally obsessed masses and I see fan translations piggybacking on anime fansub popularity as a good way to provide the right exposure for the right titles which presents itself as a major business opportunity for Japanese companies to get established here. I think the profitability of the eroge industry (what little there is) is because of how accessible it is in Japan compared to the west. You have very limited venues to approach for buying these sorts of games in the west. In Japan I could walk into Akihabara and climb up to the second or third floor of a certain store and find a lot of normal looking people browsing the shelves buying the latest eroge. I bought Majikoi just by asking, no one had any issues with it even though I was foreign. I paid a nice 7000 yen for it and I don’t regret it at all. In the west you wouldn’t be able to do that. That’s why the porn industry in the west is so heavily pirated.

But seriously, lets be honest with ourselves, you cannot expect to argue that piracy and loss of profits is the primary motivation for these C&Ds. If anything it’s vile xenophobia and arrogance on the part of the developers. We can’t argue with the law and we have to bend over and take it, but that doesn’t mean we have to like it. It’s really obvious ensuring good reputation and product quality is the last thing on their minds, they just don’t want dirty gaijin playing their games, the very idea offends them. It’s nice to know at least some people are open minded and care about more than the bottom line or the idea of westerners violating their precious cashcow franchises such as Ryukishi07’s wholehearted encouragement of witch hunt translating Umineko or Nitro+ taking the logical choice of signing on with JAST to get their games translated. But as I was saying about determinism, piracy is no excuse for a failing industry. Recent studies even indicate that claims like “90% of X games are pirated” is actually highly misleading. You cannot guarantee that someone who downloads a game would have bought it. Counting 1million downloads for something doesn’t mean 1 million potential sales that have been lost.

I agree that it’s morally wrong that someone is able to enjoy another person’s hard work without paying for it, but from a business perspective it is intellectually dishonest to blame piracy as a reason profitability is lacking. If JAST ever goes under, piracy won’t be the reason why. If anything it’ll be the fact that they’ve been dealing with a niche genre limited heavily in terms of how it can be distributed by virture of the content itself. You can’t even get some of this shit past Canadian customs. Similarly the PC gaming industry is being abandoned wholesale by companies like Epic games because they think rampant piracy has cut into their profits. The sad truth is poorly optimized PC ports of games that were console oriented by design is the reason profits are dipping for PC. The control scheme, hud, gameplay methods, FOV etc of your typical multi platform game in this decade tends to be entirely designed for console players in mind. 10 years ago you didn’t have things like auto recharging health, oversized huds and inventory systems clearly not designed for keyboards and mice.

The true reason for PC versions of smash hit console games failing is that they simply weren’t built for PCs in mind, they were ported with many of their console oriented features intact and often people who have both a PC and Console end up buying it for the console because it plays better. Piracy is not the reason. Look at Blizzard Entertainment, while unquestionably millions of copies of warcraft, starcraft etc have been pirated, millions more were purchased. You can attribute most of their current profitability to world of warcraft but the primary reason they are successful is they develop their games exclusively for the PC and optimize it for the keyboard and mouse. Most game developers don’t do this, it’s time consuming to develop for PCs and factor in a multitude of hardware and peripheral combinations. By comparison it’s piss easy to develop for consoles and you get far greater returns not because its hard to pirate console games (hint: it’s piss easy and everyone modded their PS2s etc back in the day).

Long story short, piracy no matter how legally or morally objectionable, is not the reason companies go bankrupt. Shitty design, poor marketing and lack of interest in the product is the reason. By C&Ding fan translators instead of utilizing them, cracking down on fansubbers etc you are doing the opposite of marketing. You’re demarketing your product. Legal and moral arguments aside, from a business perspective you’re cutting down your exposure. It’s very illogical and shortsighted not to mention typical of the Japanese to engage in these activities. Many businesses in Japan don’t even operate under the idea of maintaining profitability at any cost instead they run on some nationalist agenda.

If there were 100 million dollars in profit just waiting to be reaped by a company such as Minori in the US if only they simply translated and sold their games abroad, they still wouldn’t do it. It’s not about the money, they are refusing on principle.

Case in point: Wal-Mart failed in Japan because Japanese consumers believed the cheaper products they are selling are lower in quality despite exact same products being sold in other stores for a higher price.

This is the mentality of these people, the money is not the issue here, loyalty, nationalism and xenophobia and misinformation are the driving issues behind the problems in this industry. Legally we can’t challenge it but from a human perspective they are using these laws which protect their creation in all the wrong ways. It’s their personal freedom to act on this and I don’t object to those freedoms. But they’re exercising their freedoms for all the wrong reasons.

Absurdist, who are you replying to? Nobody is talking about piracy here >_> Japanese developers are not C&Ding translation projects because of piracy.

Source? Are you saying minori were lying re: saying that they would consider such offers? Is your justification for thinking this anything other than ‘eroge companies must be xenophobic’? I say this; if you offered Minori a hundred million dollars to license one of their games abroad, they would do it. Ten million dollars? They would do it. A million dollars? They would do it.

Yes, your post managed to tear down that straw man quite nicely but you’re not actually arguing against anyone here. Even your initial subject, the DMCA, isn’t in discussion any more (the DMCA notice Dark Translations got was not legitimate)

I don’t think I explained myself well enough, I was trying to tie in my arguments about piracy to various news I’ve read over the past few years how Japan eagerly wants to crack down on fansubbing, translation etc as a means of safeguarding their anime industries and profits.

A lot of what I’ve seen with recent events leading to the shutdown of translation groups has pertained to companies wanting to safeguard their IP from what they felt encouraged piracy. Fan translations have been C&Ded in the past because of piracy reasons more than anything else. I was trying to respond to that.

As for Minori alienating their western fans I have this to say: Look at their site, look at their treatment of their foreign fans. All of this points to a lack of desire to exploit overseas markets and ply their trade beyond Japanese shores. Based on their behavior thus far, I do not believe they are behaving rationally, I came to my conclusions based on this. This isn’t the first time I have seen this sort of thing. I believe it was on this forum that it was mentioned by I think Narg that certain doujin groups in Japan have turned down generous offers to get their work licensed abroad. They not only refused, they did so in a very impolite and rude way. I think the group i’m thinking of in particular are the ones who made Ragnarok Battle Offline. Gravity or whoever is responsible for iRO approached them with a deal to license that game to be translated and sold in the west and they were promptly told in no uncertain terms to go fuck themselves.

It’s strange, that people capable of such emotionally stimulating work can be so insensitive. No matter how idealistic you are you would have to a billionaire or philanthropist to pay the sort of figures they’d quote you I’m certain.

I think if anyone approached Minori with a licensing deal they would never give a feasible offer.

I don’t have much to go on right now but my point is that based on the behavior of some companies like Akabesoft and Minori, the eroge market is very much driven by irrational and emotionally driven business practices rather than sound and reasonable decision making.

To go back on topic, I really disagree with actions like dark translations being served etc. If I was a Japanese eroge company I would want to increase my exposure. Current business practices involve coasting on established trends and fan bases because expansion can be prohibitively expensive. This is why you have countless iterations of the Da Capo and Shuffle franchise which essentially boils down to regurgitation of old content for obsessed fans. The target market for eroge is very established and many of them have concluded that instead of bringing innovative titles to the table its better to beat a dead horse for their 50k fans that are obsessed with specific archetypes and points. If my development practices are limited by lack of resources combined with too much risk associated with attempting something new, I would want to take my existing titles and expand my horizons with them by trying to market them elsewhere.

Since I lack resources to do this I won’t be able to get away with it that easily. Which means I’ll put expansion on hold and coast. But one day a fan translator group pops up and translates my game. Here’s what I’d do, I’d view this translation as a resume or portfolio. I would make them an offer, commission them perhaps. Work for me and I’ll supply you with what you need to translate these games. I can then get these people to open an english website for my company, and offer digital distribution of my games. Everyone wins. I believe the costs associated with comissioning or farming out non profit translation groups are lower than setting it up all by myself. Not to mention there’s almost no overhead since they wont be working out of an office. I can pay them by the page or by the game instead of by the hour. Monetary incentive to translate the game also speeds up translation and providing support from my end makes their life easier.

How many non profit translation projects never got off the ground for one reason or another? Kanon, Clannad and School Days have been at like 40% for years at a time. If they’re good at what they do, throw a little money at them and give them access to you source code or development servers and you can stand to make a killing. These people never expected to make a profit in the first place, giving them incentive and resources costs you little and benefits them much more than they initially expected. Everyone wins.

Look at their site

Yes, they block overseas users and very calmly state why. Their justification is quite reasonable. VisualArt’s blocks overseas users and yet VisualArt’s is negotiating terms with MangaGamer.

look at their treatment of foreign fans

Treatment of foreign fans? What are you talking about, exactly? C&Ding unauthorised translation projects? That’s completely within their rights, and also quite understandable if they DO plan to license the works later (if you license something that’s already been fan translated, I highly doubt it would sell as well! Again, this has nothing to do with piracy. Good luck convincing people who have paid 9240? for a game and patched it with a translation to pay $40 or whatever for an officially translated copy later. Even if you manage to get some people to do that, good luck getting ALL of them to.

All of this points to a lack of desire to exploit overseas markets and ply their trade beyond Japanese shores. Based on their behavior thus far, I do not believe they are behaving rationally, I came to my conclusions based on this.

I don’t see how you’ve really justified this beyond ‘because I said so’ - if they really didn’t have any interest in ever touching an overseas market they wouldn’t care. Keeping your products untranslated is pretty important to keeping a potential foreign license valuable, especially in an area where both the fan translation and the official translation are inherently going to be a similar level of quality to the end user.

Doujin groups are not commercial companies; apples are apples and oranges are oranges. They’re composed of individuals, they do not have shareholders and they often don’t value profit as highly - they are interested in the act of creation above all else, and I can understand not wanting something you created as a labour of love corrupted by running it through the blender that is localisation.

Ragnarok Battle Offline was licensed by and is being sold by Gravity in Korea. Yes, it’s not ‘the west’ but Gravity never tried to license the game to sell in ‘the west’. Another company licensed and sold the rights to the English version. I find it very hard to believe that French Bread told either company to ‘go fuck themselves’.

I find Minori’s statements about banning us for our own good to be highly patronising. They patronise us and tell people who want to enjoy their games to come to Japan to get them because of fear of their legal status. No one is going to fly to Japan solely for the purpose of eroge, it’s both financially impractical and borderline obsessive behavior. I simply don’t think they’re telling the truth about their reasons for blocking foreigners. The real reason is probably knee-jerk reactions to the rapelay fiasco and the simple discovery that they have an overseas fanbase. They don’t like us, if they did like us they would’ve found ways not to block us. Other Japanese companies are not blocking their fans and no one is going to prison over it. I’ve been around Japanese people long enough to know I shouldn’t take anything they say at face value, especially if it’s written in a patronising tone like Minori’s block message.

So, are you saying that region-coding is some kind of xenophobic move? Because, you know, it does exactly what minori does: it prevents people from areas other than their to enjoy their product. I don’t think I heard you complain about console region-locks or DVD region-coding so why are you complaining about minori doing the same? I mean, the industry allows them to do so, with each and every game clearly written that they’re “to be purchased and played in Japan only”. Of course, you could say that no one (or almost no one) does anything to enforce that but it doesn’t mean no one shouldn’t.

Honestly, I thought that we had graduated beyond the ‘eroge companies are xenophobic!! they hate foreigners! disgusting gaijin getting sick all over their masterpieces, lock them out’ attitude by now, but apparently not. Eroge companies are not xenophobic. They never have been xenophobic. They never will be xenophobic. Can we state this categorically now so that nobody tries to use it as an argument again? Please? Otherwise we’re not going to get anywhere!

eroge companies are companies! they’re not big companies, but they do want to make money. given that I don’t see anyone lining up to pay minori a million dollars for ef, are you sure you’re really that eager to give ridiculous amounts of money to eroge companies for licenses, which you will never recoup even a tenth of? if not, why not? is it because you’re xenophobic?

Not so stray off topic, but I know a bit of inside information about the Ragnarok Online IP handling. :slight_smile:

As mentioned already, RO is owned by Gravity, which is a Korean company. The IP was licensed to GungHo for distribution in Japan. As a result, all legal issues concerning the protection and handling of Ragnarok Online – in Japan mind you – was the authority of GungHo. Gravity could not sue French Bread (then known as Watanabe), for making a Japanese doujin, because that right belonged to GungHo. As we already know, Japanese companies are lenient towards domestic doujin.

Having said that: if French Bread tried to sell Ragnarok Battle Offline outside of Japan, and it was a country that Gravity had license control of – the United States for example – then Gravity could sue French Bread. This is why French Bread did not want the RBO doujin sold in the United States (which was under the jurisdiction of the Gravity owned iRO servers).

Now it should also be noted, that when GungHo bought the rights to licensing Ragnarok Online, they also bought controlling shares in Gravity. This is why a lot of GungHo developed material and game mechanic changes for Ragnarok Online – such as Amatsu – ends up being officially added to the Korean and international version… they are also a developer.

So back to the earlier explanation: Gravity did not sue French Bread, because French Bread was not in their power to sue. Gravity would have sued French Bread, had it been made in the United States: during that time frame, there was a glut of private servers, and Gravity was on a legal warpath… which ultimately was unsuccessful¬Ö but that’s a tale for another time. Hence the reason French Bread was adamant against exportation of RBO.

However because of the GungHo’s influence, and RBO is such a good game, Gravity made inroads to have a commercial version of it released in Korea. They also did the same for the Philippines (this is the official English version mentioned). The specifics of that deal are unknown to me, although because Gravity owned the IP to Ragnarok Online, they made quite a profitable deal.

Anyways… today Ragnarok Online is a mere shadow of itself ¬ñ WoW obviously beat the shit out of it ¬ñ so there’s no fear of Gravity suing people over RBO being translated. Furthermore, RBO was released in late 2004¬Ö so even if they did send out C&D’s, it could be restarted in late 2011. Lastly: technically only French Bread could send out C&D’s concerning RBO (they are the creators), which they won’t, because French Bread doesn’t own the IP to Ragnarok Online, and they could be sued for acknowledging the release of RBO outside of Japan, Korea, and the Philippines (the only authorized zones to sell it).

So while an unofficial translation of RBO is not currently legal, there’s so much of a tangle in the first place, no unofficial translation will ever get bothered. Also Gravity ain’t the rich powerhouse with lawyers it used to be. For such a mythical event to happen: French Bread would have to issue the C&D, and have permission from Gravity and GungHo to do it, which would only last until December of 2011… unless one of these entities starts selling the English RBO in the US, which all signs indicate ain’t going to happen, because the owning company of that is Level Up Games… and just makes everything more complicated. :stuck_out_tongue:

Hey Narg, where does the 7-year thing come from? Is it from Article III for the Berne Convention?

Universal Copyright Convention, Article V, Section 2

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ … N=201.html

Said translation must be completely non-profit though. There’s also “common sense” mechanisms which have to be considered. For example we have a Japanese song with lyrics that’s copyrighted. The owner can sue someone for broadcasting an unofficial version of that in English. The owner can sue someone for an unauthorized broadcast of that song in America. The owner CAN’T sue someone, for singing that song to themselves in their car… nor can they sue someone for simply translating the lyrics into English and posting it on the Internet.

A group of people can translate a Japanese eroge into whatever language they want, so long as they don’t publish that translation (no question of this after seven years). The key terminology here is publication. Does posting something on the Internet, count as publication? That’s a legal argument that’s still being debated. It does count as distribution though, so that part is worth considering.

So going with the steps:

#1: Wait seven years for an official translation. (100% legal)

#2: Translation by a group of people, because official translation never happened. (100% legal)

#3: Sharing translation among the aforementioned group. (100% legal)

All this falls under Fair Use. However what does not fall under fair use:

#1: Creating a public site to spread awareness of an unofficial translation that’s accessible to anyone who wants it (violates distribution).

#2: Charging money for unofficial translation (violates commercial rights).

#3: Credit an unofficial translation to a person or group (violates publication). You make an unofficial translation, it’s not yours to take credit for whatsoever.

There’s some other odds and ends to consider, but you get the picture. You can get a translation done within the boundaries of the rules as they are; it’s how you’re “handing out” the translation that matters. These fanlation groups put too much focus on what’s they think should be theirs (giving credit to translators, releasing dump files, etc) without realizing that none of this is theirs to begin with.