Did polygons screw video games up?

Visual Novel Community Off Topic
#1

Is it just my nostalgia, or does anyone else miss the days when sprite games were king? Don’t get me wrong: I love how games in the Devil May Cry and Metal Gear Solid series look and feel - and the incredible CG movies in a Square Enix title make me giddy as a school girl: but there was a time when video games didn’t require six figure budgets and dozens of development teams.

I just finish reading an article on how Daisuke Ishiwatari nearly single handedly put the first Guilty Gear together: he was lead programmer, the artist, the music composer, the producer; just about everything really. The essay praised him for being such a “multitalented master” during an era when such people are slowly vanishing. And that’s what I find kinda sad.

In the 8-bit and 16-bit days, it wasn’t unusual for 3 or so people to work together, and put a blockbuster game together. Expectations for a game weren’t any lower then than they are now (i.e. good premise, good gameplay, good graphics, and good music) - it’s just the level of complexity has grown beyond the capabilities of a single individual.

Of course, there are tons of sprite games that were produced by large studios and resources (just watching the credits in Street Fighter 3 or the Dungeon & Dragons arcades games will prove that) - but the point is that great 2D sprite games had been produced WITHOUT a massive studio (the aforementioned Guilty Gear being one of them).

These days, what chance is there of a single “garage programmer” creating a Final Fantasy 12 or Soul Calibur 3 level game?

The handheld market has held the torch in this - but not all of them: PSP wants to be polygon all the way if Sony wins. So that leaves the DS… which is supposedly so notorious to program on, the “little guy” might choose to avoid (unless they just make a backwards compatible GBA game).

While I love PS3 and Wii and XBOX360 for their innovations and general badass graphics, I also hate them for making the production of console games, “elitist” in a sense.

Am I alone in believing this?

[ 04-11-2007, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Nargrakhan ]

#2

You know, following your train of thought, the Wii would actually not be elitist. It actually brings gameplay forward, not caring about the latest cutting-edge graphics.

But yes, I do miss that time. To me, abstract 2D graphics are more appealing.

#3

I dunno. A single person is still capable of creating a chess program and interface that is more than competitive against the vast majority of people. Of course, chess graphics are relatively simple. To do the work on a larger game would be a lot harder. I would suspect at this point, by the time they got the game done, they’d have to redo it to catch up with the latest developments in sound and video.

#4

More like seven figure budgets.

#5

Nargrakhan, this reminds me of an arctile in inserctredit, sometime alst year

http://www.insertcredit.com/archives/2006_10.html

http://thewiikly.zogdog.com/article.php?article=51&ed=5&p=1

Polygons are cool, but they aren’t for everything. I just can’t be turned on by a 3-D figure; sure, it’s close to the real thing, but it’s no different from a drawing. A 3-d image is still animation, no different from it’s 2-D original counterpart.

As for 2-D images, I suppose it depends on whether you can really appreicate the old school or not. And even that is up to debate; for instance, the animation industry hasn’t changed that much over the past few years, and when I say animation, I mean 2D animation. I cam still rememebr the last relatively good and original cartoon I saw way back: Invader Zim.

But, on the bright side, you don’t need to be big to produce a really good game… I mean, look at TYPE-MOON.

#6

You’re right. While I don’t know the exact figure, I do recall hearing on more than one occasion, that Final Fantasy XII cost in the single digit millions to produce. I believe the upcoming (final?) Metal Gear Solid title is also a multi-million dollar project.

Well Type-Moon is really a PC game company, rather than console. 2D games - especially in Japan and Korea - still do well on that format. In fact, the b-game and eroge market has proven itself to be highly against 3D titles - there’s only a handful of successful 3D titles. “Shumps” also seem to follow the 2D preference.

EDIT
This is somewhat off topic, but has anyone noticed the sharp increase with the cost of animation?

For example, Gunslinger Girl - at the time of it’s production - was one of the most expensive anime series: costing at $80K per episode. Then a more recent series like Samurai 7 reportedly costs $300K per episode.

Having seen the two, I think Gunslinger looks cleaner and is better drawn, than Samurai…

[ 04-12-2007, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Nargrakhan ]

#7

PC, perhaps, but I fear TYPE-MOON has gone the way of the big budget. All those spin-off games, esp. the latest FS/N fighter by Capcom, must feature involvement by TYPE-MOON, and that would mean a lot of money, one way or the other.

The way I see it, the industry is improving. The bigger the budget, the slighty better and bigger the process. Of course, this isn’t always true (and we could end up with another 1983 E.T.), but bigger games require bigger support and bigger fanbase. Computer games aren’t the types of yesteryear; true, there are certain people who still stigmatise against computer game players, but the increase in attention deficit amongst the youth these days makes entertaining them with polygons, skillful comboes, and great visual effects easier. Oh, and a good plotline, so that they won’t get broed, good, as in not cheapo-trashy, but relatively unique.

Besides, I grew up with videos games, both PC and console, and I’d follow them, through thick and thin. Unless we experience a Dark Age like the one in Deus Ex; then I’ll go back to reading good old manga. Besides, I need to revisit a few of my old books, like Nietzsche…

#8

Playstation 3 can go to hell.
Xbox 2 or whatever it’s name was is probably pretty cool.
I’m an Nintendo Fan - A Wii is for me.

Yes, I do miss them as well.
I also miss the good Shareware demos of like Doom, you got the whole first episode - Over 10 levels! - Not to mention 9 of 10 Weapons. Today’s demo is like, 1 level or 10min gameplay. Some such demos are nice, such as Soul Reaver to PS and Nightmare Creatures.

I still play the old school games.
I love Emulators - And Auction sites.
Bought my Sega Saturn from a swedish auction site as well as Assault Suit Leynos 2 from UK.
But Sprites aren’t dead, not at all. Nintendo still uses sprites for their DS for example. And a very very good game known as “Super Robot Wars” parts uses all sprites.

I agree with you on the part of sprite games being all good and lovely, I disagree on you when you say Wii is being elitist. If any of the new gaming consoles is being Elitist, it’s Playstation 3.
This is where one would add “Get your facts straight”, I don’t mean any offense to start a huge flame war or such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6ENYTYjsZ4
Super Robot Wars Alpha 3.
Increadible beautifull Spirtes!

#9

Anything can be considered elitist: the term in its basest sense merely means “better than everyone else.” Ironically enough, your comment of “get your facts straight” is elitist in context after denouncing the PS3 and then outwardly exclaiming how you prefer the Wii - thus you could careless if I berate Sony, but you get all defensive if I view Nintendo in a negative light. :roll:

In any case, that’s a complete misdirection of what I meant.

I called the PRODUCTION of their games elitist. The days of when someone could program a blockbusting console game with a single person budget is fading fast.

For example: to obtain a license and development software for a DS from Nintendo - generally the cheapest of the new systems out these days; considering the GBA backwards compatibility - it requires meeting several standards the company has set (one of which is having a development studio) and several thousand dollars. Of course I don’t have to use the official DS suite to make games for the system, but Nintendo would challenge it if I try to sell an unlicensed game at EB or Gamestop… they always have (just look up their 8-bit and 16-bit days). On the console systems things are more complicated since they have boot-up security for illegal games. The only legal way to get pass this, is to get the key from the respective company… which means getting a license… which means it costs major money after meeting company requirements.

Either way: if plain 'ole Narg wanted to make a legal Wii game (just as an example), he’d have to fork over $$$ to get the license and software. But before Narg could do that, I’d have to pass Nintentdo’s standards of what makes a game company. Trust me when I say, it’s not a group of three people with a dream and talent with programming, music, and art. In the older days the rules weren’t as strict: in fact, Sony (Net Yaroze) and SEGA (Dreamcast CE) supported homegrown games. Now it isn’t. I have to be one of the big boys or trying to be like the big boys to get the grace of Nintendo (Wii) or Sony (PS3). Still doubt me? Okay, this is what Nintendo says (Sony is a lot more selective BTW):

That’s from http://www.warioworld.com in case you’re wondering. Oh… and “developer” means game maker in that stuff.

Given how chaotic game production by professional programmers on a 360 can be, I have no idea what kind of nightmare would entail if I wanted to get a license from Microsoft without the backing of EA Games or something.

[ 04-17-2007, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Nargrakhan ]

#10

Ehheh embarrased
Seems like I was “defeated” ^^’’

Didn’t read all though, and yeah.
I get fairly defensive when people talk negativitly about Nintendo. Heard so many PSfans say just a bunch of crap that they have no idea about. Sorry if I sounded hostile ^^

#11

LOL!

#12

About a few months ago, I across this:
http://www.insertcredit.com/archives/2006_10.html

[url=http://thewiikly.zogdog.com/article.php?article=51&ed=5&p=1]http://thewiikly.zogdog.com/article.php?article=51&ed=5&p=1[/url]

~

Guess what happened:

http://www.ukresistance.co.uk/

http://www.ukresistance.co.uk/2007/05/another-one-of-these.html#comments

http://www.ukresistance.co.uk/2007/04/playstation-loses-it-head.html#comments

 <img src="http://www.ukresistance.co.uk/pics4/reichstag-wii.jpg" alt=" - " />

Looks like the revival that the Wii and Ds was predicted to bring might just work.

 <img src="http://www.insertcredit.com/archives/majo.jpg" alt=" - " />

I mean, the DS brought SNK back, though they will, most likely, be producing h-games from now on (and no more KOF nooooooooooo…), one of my favourite card games is available in DS (Sangokushi Taisen)

And lets not forget MySims.

~

Sadly, in a sense, Narg’s prediction has also come true. With the Wii, it will, to some extent, mean the death of a certain old school…t hough it does mean a new era of creativity.

Rahxephon anyone ?

~

On and another thought… I better get my DATAM PS games, esp. that PS 2 Non-H version of Private Nurse before they finalyl disapppear…

And to think the wiikly, which published this article, has been defunct for months. Such irony.

[ 05-07-2007, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: Phineas Lucis ]

#13

All hail the mighty ZUN, maker of the Touhou series. He does all the art, story, music and programming by himself.

And all parts are damned nice, too. :>

Kind of sad that folks like this are growing increasingly rare these days…

…erm, what? SNK released a bishoujo game type thing with its female characters a little while ago on the DS, but they’ve yet to make an actual erogame as far as I know.

And I keep hearing about a new KOF game being in the works, so I’m not too worried about that.

#14

(Picture retained for great justice !)

That KOF game is KOF XII, but, judging from the plotline (Ash after the third power of Susanoo, the sword of Kusanagi), Kensou’s rivalry with the lasts remnants of NESTS, and usually, the typical SNK penchant of finishing a chapter with a third instalmebnt, the next KOF game may and I repeat, may (only), be SNK’s last foray into the franchise. The next KOF after that would, at the most, be a dream-match, and that’s it, unless KOF XII is as big and/or unique as, say, Melty Blood and Arcana Heart.

Back to that game you mentioned… that’s the thing. SNK released two datings sims for the mobile phones, Days of Memories, featuring all their characters, so, in truth, the prospect of an eroge by SNK isn’t too far off. (or, at the most, a VN-type game, but eroge would draw the most fanboys)

And personally, I’d love to see it happen actually. With Falcoon as the artist… or maybe an improved version of the V.G. series. And, if they want tor evisit KOF… I can imagine all the fujoshi who want a piece of Benimaru and Ash… or see some fun between Kyo & Iori… and I’m pretty sure there’s a good reason why they put Malin and Momoko in the two previousl instalments of KOF. Just put Hinako with those two in a game, slap another word for ‘candy’ on the genre, and you know what I’m thinking.

Unless SNK comes up with a twin-cest type character for KOF, aside from the Kagura sisters. (so many possibilities…)

[ 05-11-2007, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: Phineas Lucis ]

#15