Ero and gaming: an incompatible proposition?

[Nandemonai]

Originally posted by Darkstar:
If you can share your porn with your friends, you can share your erogames. If you cannot share your porn, you cannot share your games.

Narq: Didn’t want to quote your whole post to basically say “I agree 100%”. Many of these games are little more than porn, and porn in any package is subject, I think, to what you described. In fact, the words you picked are exactly what I wish I would have said.

Darkstar: This isn’t quite right. While a good many of these eroge are pure and simple porn, ones that aren’t can get shopped around even to people who don’t do porn. I have been pushing Crescendo on my non-porn consuming friends, with varying degrees of success. (The one who I’ve got to play it so far liked it.)

[Nandemonai]

Originally posted by Nargrakhan:
Then Larry Flint comes along and makes Hustler – which is downright “crude and lust” as Larry best puts it. He fought a HELL OF A BATTLE – only by the grace of the First Amendment did he win.

Which is what it is for. Nobody tries to silence speech that isn’t controvertial.

[Nandemonai]

Originally posted by Shingo:
I think the core of your argument is sound, but I’d like to hear you address why erotica in some media is seen as “demeaning” where it isn’t seen so in other media.

I think the “porn” vs “art” debate is really the proper answer to the question. You’ve created a false dichotomy.

Consider Flowers for Algernon (the extended novel) compared to your average romance novel. While FfA features several sex scenes, no one in their right mind would put the two anywhere in the same class. But they’re in the same media.

Likewise, Xenogears features a few places where characters have sex. Nobody would place XChange 1 or DYLHB in the same league as Xenogears.

Most of the products in the eroge industry are “porn”, and not “literature” or “art”. Especially the domestic lineup; classic GC’s title selections are heavily skewed in favor of porn. (Kango 1/2, DYLAHB 1/2, CSMT 1/2, etc.)

In fact, the games that are different are the exact same games I’m trying to push – and they’re the same reason I am still a fan of this genre. Crescendo, Nocturnal Illusion, Kana – even Snow Drop (which really isn’t in the same league as any of those) – these are all literature with erotic parts. But most of the games in English aren’t, and so most of them get the “porn” stigma that DOES get attached to other media.

That is, the whole thing is a selection bias. The other media are much more mature, and therefore have a far wider breadth to draw from. Visual novels, however, have a much larger history of being ‘porn’ than they do not. [Note: that last is based on hearsay, not firsthand eroge industry knowledge. Your mileage may vary.] Therefore the perception is that b-games are eroge and thus porn – because that’s the context people have.

[Darkstar]

Shingo, I was saying that you have to have a friendship in which you can share porn between you and your friends to be able to share with them ero-games. Why? Because you need to know enought about each other to not waste each others time, and to not completely sicken each other.

What people find stimulating is different. What will capture the attention of one person, will often be boring to another. Or it might even sicken them. That’s the problem with anything that really touches on the erotic, and why major media tends to stay very basic in its depiction of it when aiming for a mainstream audience.

Consider: You’ve got a friend that really loves super heroes, likes magic girls anime, and laughs at most of the spoofs of those subjects. Would you turn this friend on to Jewel Knight Crusaders? Between the loli, the rape, the significant amounts of blood at the deflowering of so many of the girls, and the anal action in the game— do you think you’d even dare? Most people wouldn’t, not without knowing what the friend’s tolerances and possibly some of his kinks were. Give that game to a good friend of yours that has been through the wrong traumatic experience, and you could damage your relationship between the two of you.

That’s the thing. If you don’t know your friends well enough, you aren’t going to be recommending them anything but the “boring”, middle of the road stuff.

It’s a lot easier to recommend a non-erotic movie or book to a friend. Most people just don’t sit down and discuss their favorite secret fantasies— not if they happen to involve stuff past the basic “norms”. That’s where that “prude” or “conservative” bit comes in— maybe you like to be tied up and dominated in your favorite sex-play, and hence, in your prefered ero gaming. But you aren’t going to tell that to all your friends. Heck, you might never tell them, and they just learn about it from a girlfriend or ex of yours.

[death13]

Originally posted by Darkstar:
[b] Shingo, I was saying that you have to have a friendship in which you can share porn between you and your friends to be able to share with them ero-games. Why? Because you need to know enought about each other to not waste each others time, and to not completely sicken each other.

What people find stimulating is different. What will capture the attention of one person, will often be boring to another. Or it might even sicken them. That’s the problem with anything that really touches on the erotic, and why major media tends to stay very basic in its depiction of it when aiming for a mainstream audience.

Consider: You’ve got a friend that really loves super heroes, likes magic girls anime, and laughs at most of the spoofs of those subjects. Would you turn this friend on to Jewel Knight Crusaders? Between the loli, the rape, the significant amounts of blood at the deflowering of so many of the girls, and the anal action in the game— do you think you’d even dare? Most people wouldn’t, not without knowing what the friend’s tolerances and possibly some of his kinks were. Give that game to a good friend of yours that has been through the wrong traumatic experience, and you could damage your relationship between the two of you.

That’s the thing. If you don’t know your friends well enough, you aren’t going to be recommending them anything but the “boring”, middle of the road stuff.

It’s a lot easier to recommend a non-erotic movie or book to a friend. Most people just don’t sit down and discuss their favorite secret fantasies— not if they happen to involve stuff past the basic “norms”. That’s where that “prude” or “conservative” bit comes in— maybe you like to be tied up and dominated in your favorite sex-play, and hence, in your prefered ero gaming. But you aren’t going to tell that to all your friends. Heck, you might never tell them, and they just learn about it from a girlfriend or ex of yours. [/b]

So…basically… You mean that…
You’d rather keep things secret as not to arouse opposition…am I correct…?
At any rate… We agree…
“In secrecy is strength… None can oppose one who cannot be found…”

“…Sou desu…”

So in the end…
“Even friends are still strangers…”
One can not truly know about another…

“…The one who knows you most is yourself alone…”

[Ignosco]

Here are a few more thoughts relating to the art versus porn debate. There are some generalisations below, but I think these observations (though not necessarily the conclusions) are generally true.

In drawn 2D art (as opposed to 2D hentai), nude drawing is done extensively, and occasionally scenes of sexual activity are depicted. The difference between these and what might be seen in an erogame, are the details. Normally in ‘art’ art, the more explicit components of sex aren’t depicted (penetration, bodily fluids etc) whilst these are probably the norm in 2D hentai. In some ways this is similar to how sex is portrayed in almost always portrayed movies - being simulated rather than real.

In literature, sex scenes are obviously quite common. However, I think the difference separating them from ‘erotica’ is what they focus on. Usually there is an extensive focus in an erogame on the ‘mechanics’ of sex, and associated descriptions, whereas in a non-erotic novel, the focus is more on the circumstances surrounding the act/emotions etc.

Even though most erogames have at least some semblance of a plot, and contain a lot of non-H content, on some level they are meant to be sexually arousing, which probably means most people would consider them to be pornographic.

[Nero_Blackheart]

Ditto on Narg.
I’ll add something too.

I think its the power.

The first thing that people think about games is that what you can do in it. As an example here’s an infamous game GTA: you can butcher the whole city if you want to.

Now when this person hears about a game that has sex as a component what will he think?
You can have sex with a girl any way you want???

And then will he inscribe his most preverted fantasy’s on the previous thought.
And his own thoughts will revile him, and he will project his anger on you.

What is the general view on games? Crush, kill, rend, be god, be evil, do what you want, bla bla bla.
Now this point of view on an eroge? You can fuck? Oh my god.

I myself dont give a damn about what other people think.
The other day I was playing with Gore Screaming Show in the students hostle at 14:00pm, it was hilarious
Teacher bursts into the room asking what the hell am I doing.
Chick on the screen just got disemboweled. And the rest of the story is even more funny. XD

[Jinnai]

@Nargrakhan

Also: does eroge have a dedicated political interest group?

Did you know that the Senator of Washington, argued against Thompson on the Senate floor about video games? Hmmm… where is the headquarters for Nintendo of America again? Do you think that might have been a factor? I mean is it mere coincidence that Nintendo pours money into political campaigns, JUST LIKE EVERY MAJOR BUSINESS DOES!?

The adult video industry pays MILLIONS to get politicians in office, to will relax distribution and filming laws against them. For decades, the porn industry didn’t have any factor with movie guilds ¬ñ they were shunned. However politicians (and judges) have made laws and rulings claiming this was unconstitutional. This has given them LOTS more pull and resources to make high quality productions.

The video game industry has been doing the same against censorship and negative media.

Now how about eroge? Does Peach Princess pay their local Senator or Representative a visit?

That is actually one of the most valid things said. Not that Narg’s other points were completely meritless, but this, along with changing generations is probably the two biggest reason.

Another reason not yet covered has to do with the way anime was first seen by most people alive and active today. It had some content, very tame ecchi by today’s standards, but then considered quite obscene. The press then started reviewing this as pornographic and then anime as a general got the stigma of either porn or action or both.

While recent years this stigma on being just action has eroded, the stigma on being perverted is still around. This is in part due to humanities tendancy to focus on negative aspects longer than positive ones. The erotic content of anime is viewed by most westerners as bad, thus the stigma remains even as more proof comes out that it isn’t all like that. The fact they can point to shows still coming out like this just helps fuel the notion.

The above is important when dealing specifically with eroge games. Without it, you cannot get the full context. Other comments previously made about games being for kids is relevent. But also, in the eyes of most westerners, animation is for kids. This is much more fundimental to the way of thinking of most westerners than even gaming perpuated by Saturday morning cartoons & Disney.

Thus you have a combination of the two, animation and gaming which is suppose to be seen as kids stuff, roled up into one with the stigma attached from being anime, and which just would help reinforce the notion of the sterotype to others.

Then finally western society thinks showing a breast, penis or vagina is much worse than showing a man getting ripped in half with a chainsaw, having a major gun battle with blood & guts flying everywhere, etc. Even to the point of showing kids if forced they would rather most kids be exposed to over the top violence & gore than even the most slightest hint of nudity.

When you wrap that with something that soceity thinks is suppose to be “kids stuff” ie animation & games…

[Jinnai]

@Patapon

I can only speak from my own experience, but I am 100% certain that if I came out and told people that I play eroge games(no matter which one), they would either not know what I was talking about, or they’d be freaked out and avoid me. I haven’t got many friends which I’d even tell what I’m playing, and even less recommend it. Even though I’ve known some of my friends since I was 5 years old, I still do not recommend eroge games. I know that he probably would like Èm, but I just do not want to bring something up that could actually hurt our friendship.

You obviously don’t trust your friends enough. All of my friends know I not only play these games, some have asked to borrow them and they all know I like loli. I do borrow some from another freind of mine at times as well. Of course if you’re friends don’t like anime, that might not go over so well.

You could be evil like me and just lend them a game that doesn’t have much eroge in it saying, “Try this. I liked it.”

[General_Starr]

Lol. I did just that, several times. None of them ever gave negative impressions, and some even came back for more; i’m beginning to worry i might lose one of my H-anime DVDs or game disks one day to ‘a series of unfortunate events caused by uncontrollable circumstances?’ /someone else borrowed it, got hooked, and wont give it back :S

Indeed, it’s kind of ironic. I find it utterly stupid to think that most average modern people ( let me insert: /n00bs ) woud rather choose to let young people or teenagers to watch horror movies, kickass action flicks and play games involving guns, bombs, assasinations and more guns, as well as fast-paced, supernatural fighting, with a helluva lot of blood n gore spilling over, all to utterly negative effect; and then are dread to even think of them playing b-games, even with only eechi or slightly H- content. The issue of sex and anything of sexual nature being considered taboo, IMO, is something that should be tossed out the window, BUT NOT completely. (at least, not to the point where minors, or rather, those who are’nt of the proper age to understand it clearly, have access to it)

But of course, this is how it is, that fact having been instilled in the culture of the Western world, or any civilization, for that matter. This is one of the things that ‘kind of’ differentiates us from all the other life forms on this planet - and has, sadly, turned itself on ourselves.

Has anyone thought about the fact that when we were still in the primitive ages, all we ever did was hunt, eat, sleep, find shelter, and… well, yeah, breed? (not to mention settling who’s the top male with the fist or the club) and then flash back several thousand years later to find ourselves literally doing a hell of a lot more than that, thinking about not failing that presentation to get that job promotion at work, or some stuff like that? Or a person is considered tops by most peers at school beacause he/she is rich, popular or fashionable, even though they suck [color=#FFFFFF]balls[/color] at everything else?
I’m not suggesting we go back to ‘those days’; just a reminder of what we used to do in those times that ‘civilization’ did not exist, and what it has taken away and done to us. Well, come to think of it, we do like it better as it is now, but we seem to have forgotten something along the way.

To think that something almost every person on this planet must and will do inevitably someday (unless you’re a fan of Platonic relationships, a hermit, a nun, or an alien-made organic contact-purpose humanoid interface, e.g. Yuki Nagato
[uh, wait… i’m not too sure about that one… darn Haruhi.AddictSock32 worm] )
is treated with such malice and disgust (in comparison to the more grisly crap that you get on the news almost everyday… hmm, if you think of it, seems like all you get on the news is the negative stuff anyway) that most (if not all) Catholic, Puritan, or people so prude it makes me want to puke, would go shush + harsh criticism + branding you a perv without even the slightest idea of WTF is it all about anyway (as is typical of n00bs, after all.)

@teh_masterer

There will always be oppression… beacause there will always be n00bs. Mock them. Pwn them. But never hate them; for, without n00bs, we will not be L337.

If ever these kinds of people played a really good bgame (IMHO, i’d literally make em do it under threat of being mass assaulted by wriggly tentacles :shock: and i’d have em play Kana and have her hydraulically crush their hearts), i might say that most, if not all of them, would toss that crappy idealism out the window into the plasma combustion bin where it can burn to subatomic hell; and have them realize that, beyond all this taboo crap, there is someting that is NOT demeaning at all, and in fact, is full of meaning, (not to mentiona story you never get to know from anywhere else) depending on their take on it.

But after all is said and done, that’s just my two measly coppers of opinion that probably might not matter; but i hope it does to people out there.
BTW… Pro Gaming and Ero gaming do have potential to mix and match, IMHO.

[olf_le_fol]

@General_Starr

But of course, this is how it is, that fact having been instilled in the culture of the Western world, or any civilization, for that matter. This is one of the things that ‘kind of’ differentiates us from all the other life forms on this planet - and has, sadly, turned itself on ourselves.

Errrrr, some western societies label ‘violence’ harder than ‘sex’, in movies, anime and video games. >_<

[Nargrakhan]

@olf_le_fol

@General_Starr

But of course, this is how it is, that fact having been instilled in the culture of the Western world, or any civilization, for that matter. This is one of the things that ‘kind of’ differentiates us from all the other life forms on this planet - and has, sadly, turned itself on ourselves.

Errrrr, some western societies label ‘violence’ harder than ‘sex’, in movies, anime and video games. >_<

Ain’t that the truth…

Wasn’t it British censors that renamed the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles, because they thought the word “ninja” was too violent?

Talk about stupid… :roll:

[Jinnai]

@olf_le_fol

@General_Starr

But of course, this is how it is, that fact having been instilled in the culture of the Western world, or any civilization, for that matter. This is one of the things that ‘kind of’ differentiates us from all the other life forms on this planet - and has, sadly, turned itself on ourselves.

Errrrr, some western societies label ‘violence’ harder than ‘sex’, in movies, anime and video games. >_<

Yes…only in America does violence trump any sense of sexualality to the point that even the most extreme forms of violence & torture are pale in comparison to even the slightest hint of nudity when it comes to social acceptance, especially for what most of society would rather their kids be exposed to as the nudity, even brief and slight is considered a far greater evil. O_o

[Nargrakhan]

@Jinnai

Yes…only in America does violence trump any sense of sexualality to the point that even the most extreme forms of violence & torture are pale in comparison to even the slightest hint of nudity when it comes to social acceptance, especially for what most of society would rather their kids be exposed to as the nudity, even brief and slight is considered a far greater evil. O_o

[Ignosco]

@Nargrakhan

@olf_le_fol

@General_Starr

But of course, this is how it is, that fact having been instilled in the culture of the Western world, or any civilization, for that matter. This is one of the things that ‘kind of’ differentiates us from all the other life forms on this planet - and has, sadly, turned itself on ourselves.

Errrrr, some western societies label ‘violence’ harder than ‘sex’, in movies, anime and video games. >_<

Ain’t that the truth…

Wasn’t it British censors that renamed the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles, because they thought the word “ninja” was too violent?

Talk about stupid… :roll:

Someone might be able to correct me on this, but the head of the BBFC at the time, James Ferman, had a policy of cutting all ‘martial arts’ weaponry out of any film/TV etc, no matter what rating it had (eg Ninja Scroll was cut too on release). Having said that, I think this show was censored in other European countries too in a similar fashion.

[Nargrakhan]

Posted in the wrong thread… :oops:

[olf_le_fol]

@Patapon

Well, I could try. I also know that it would be a failure. I know my friends well enough to know that they are of the “You watch porn? You read sex novels? Then you are a loser”-kind of people. Like I said, I know maybe one or two that I could recommend these games to, the rest are so busy trying to act like grown-up people without any hint of desire or needs, that they’d scoff at the games immediately. That’s just how people are around where I live, everyone tries so hard to be an adult that they forget to have some fun sometimes…

You should tell your friends that the main customers of the porn industry are… adults, and hardly “losers” but just about pretty much anyone.

[Nargrakhan]

@Ignosco

Someone might be able to correct me on this, but the head of the BBFC at the time, James Ferman, had a policy of cutting all ‘martial arts’ weaponry out of any film/TV etc, no matter what rating it had (eg Ninja Scroll was cut too on release). Having said that, I think this show was censored in other European countries too in a similar fashion.

Weirdness. TMNT is pure kiddy violence. The only things that ever “die” are mindless robots. IIRC, no one even gets a flesh wound. April never gets her outfit shred once (much to the horror of fanboys everywhere). Honestly, a Tom and Jerry cartoon is more violent than TMNT (it has actual decapitations and torn body parts).

Heh… I know we Americans are violent bastards, but I didn’t think we were that violent. :twisted:

[Rorokenu]

Heh… I know we Americans are violent bastards, but I didn’t think we were that violent. :twisted:

Ever been smacked by the blunt part of a machete? Good, good…your body versus cold steel is a tough nut on an open fire.

[General_Starr]

I think people tend to classify dating sims and H-games in particular as games made for sorry losers shut in a room without an RL girlfriend type of thing - but that’s simply beacause of a few reasons; prudence mentality, the fact that you engage in a fictitions relationship with a character that you can ‘mould to your liking’ (Sexy Beach game series… LOL to the size Z cup hack O.O oh… wait, no, that was Oppai Slider) and the simplest fact of either no information / no idea about what it is all about, OR MISINFORMATION (tendency for most older people, and people who had never had exposure to anime (or H-games), to think that all anime is perverted, and all that bullcrap)

IMO, they just need to be informed properly. Especially those girls who think that those 1/4 inch thick pocketbooks are the bomb for fiction (ive read some, and all i can say is the stories are a mix of innovation and crappy storylines even with tons of SMUT in them [<<<read = decripit descriptions of sex scenes])
As well as women who watch drama everyday with the typical always tearful scenes, betrayal all over the place, and the antagonists are always of the variety that i really hate - scheming, hacking, golddigging bes. It’s somewhat like playing a crappy depression bgame over n over again… so n00bifying.
It really was annoying when the females of the house hogged the TV to themselves JUST to watch drama crap, making me miss anime episodes a lot, and nearly making me miss an episode of Ah My Goddess (the local network aired the OVAs at the same time as that show (i think it’s name was Meteorite Garden) with that Chinese boyband i really would like to call "The Fing Four" (i heard these b*****s have lost their popularity; serves them right! Yeah, i still hate them)

@teh_nukerer

Crap, trash, crap and more crap
sucky, utter, repulsive crap
Enough of this crap; what i want is OWNAGE
Pure and simple… MOTHER****ING PWNAGE!

Hell, give them a dosage of Yume Miru or something just as good or even better, and they’d give up and toss even a truckload of those darn crappy paperbacks for it, as well as stop watching drama completely. Then the world would be a somewhat better place, indeed.