From a recent thread in the English B-games discussion forum:
This got me thinking: is there something fundamental about games that sets them apart from other types of entertainment in which “ero scenes” are acceptable to “normal” people? In films, for example (from Titanic to Fight Club), or TV (Sex and the City), or novels (not just romance novels, a lot of sci fi, fantasy, and straight-up regular fiction contains sex).
These are all hobbies that most people wouldn’t hesitate to share with their friends, and yet when it comes to games (or manga, or anime) with adult themes they suddenly become alarmingly deviant.
Is this a purely cultural constraint, in the sense that many western cultures still view games, comics and cartoons as “kid’s stuff” and therefore not the domain of adult themes? Or is there something intrinsic to the media that makes them different from their more “grown-up” brethren?
I’m not entirely sure about this, and I’m wondering what everyone thinks.
Television shows, movies, and novels that have erotic content or moments – such as Fight Club and Sex and the City - are there for the shock value and self gratification. When the hero sexes the damsel in distress during an action flick – or a woman has full frontal nudity – it’s done so with a “cool” factor of some sort: a way of making the scene shocking or entice.
However at no time is that seen as demeaning on the viewer, unless the viewer has a reason to be demeaned by it. What do I mean by this?
Playing Madden 2007 isn’t seen as demeaning, because there’s nothing demeaning about not being able to play pro football. Playing Devil May Cry 3 isn’t seen as demeaning, because not being able to slay demons and defy the laws of physics isn’t demeaning. Playing Final Fantasy 12 isn’t seen as demeaning, because not being able to save the world from a wanna-be God isn’t demeaning.
Playing Snow Sakura because you can’t get a real girl in real life, IS seen as demeaning.
Now I’m not saying eroge players can’t get dates: but that’s the PERCEPTION. The problem isn’t this alone – religious conservative thinking and negative political spotlighting are major issues – but this is one of the major hurdles that prevents eroge acceptance in the general public… and people from being 100% open about it.
Social perception and peer pressure is a major thing. Geeks will talk about their latest D&D adventure with each other, because they don’t feel “lesser” among such friends when describing how their 6th level elf fighter defeated the evil wizard and saved the princess. But a Jock doing the same with other “GO FOOTBALL AND WEGGIE THE GEEKS” friends? Hell no. Not unless this is a really “I’m comfortable with my standing” type guy… which would mean he’s someone who DEFINES what’s cool and could give a rat’s ass about anyone’s opinion. Or the person is a “nonconformist” who just doesn’t give a rat’s ass what other people think. However this isn’t your average “cool guy” outlook.
Look at it this way: do you see politicians quoting things that Hitler did good, and should be copied in American government? Hell no. Even if those things are totally harmless and would be good for all Americans. It would be public suicide. Why? Because of the perception that nothing Hitler did was good. Perception means more than common sense.
I remember there was a time when console RPG games were seen as geeky - because the perception of them being D&D was hard to shake off. I would tell my friends, “did you play Dragon Warrior 3? It’s cool.” The reply would be, “that game where you just run around and level up? Boring. Play a real game dude.” Truly Final Fantasy 7 changed all this with - what was at the time - top quality bling-bling CG’s. Primarily the reward model was also changed: getting more EXP wasn’t just more “spells” or higher stats that merely let you beat that tough boss – it also included CG movies that ogled your eyes. And more complex plots helped naturally.
Perhaps one day eroge will shake off the negativity - but with the conservative nature of culture in America, that’s not going to be as easy.
If you can share your porn with your friends, you can share your erogames. If you cannot share your porn, you cannot share your games.
It’s because what people like is so individual. What can be interesting and even turn on one person, can make another retch. Since most friends really don’t know much about each others erotic taste, they just don’t go into it. It saves hurt and embarassed feelings.
I think the core of your argument is sound, but I’d like to hear you address why erotica in some media is seen as “demeaning” where it isn’t seen so in other media. Is it simply the idea that anyone playing a game with a sex scene somewhere in it must be a social reject? If so, how did that stigma arise? Does it have to do with the interactivity of the medium? Or the association of games as the pastime of children?
I don’t see the argument from conservatism as particularly applying to eroge over any other form of adult media, so I’m curious if you think there would be even greater aspersions cast on eroge than on R-rated movies, say, or on romance novels.
Darkstar:
I’m curious about your automatic equation of “eroge” with “porn.” What about cases such as Fate/stay night, Comic Party, Kanon, Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, and countless others where the erotic elements are no more central to the story than the typical sex scene in a mainstream theatrical rated-R film? Not to mention that many of these have seen all-ages versions produced as well.
I think your analogy is still valid, and I know the perception exists that eroge = porn in wider society (the small part of society that’s even aware the games exist). It’s just a pity that we’re not to the point of being able to assert them as a legitimate vehicle of expression similar to the position anime and manga have attained.
It’s an interesting question (rather off topic answer follows):
At the moment, I’m working on an English language eroge as a composer/proofreader/general advice person. Perhaps describing it as an eroge is a bit misleading, as the sexual content is only a small part of the story, with only upper body nudity shown. Violence is more present in the story, but it definitely won’t be depicted visually on a guro level. (I am making these comments without having seen the completed script, but I think the sex and violence will be present more in the words, rather than the artwork - at least that’s what the author seems to suggest in the first post here ).
I guess though, the point I’m trying to make is that most people would draw a line between ‘art’ and ‘pornography’. One comment I’ve heard a few people make, requires a work of ‘art’ to contain some form of social commentary. I don’t really subscribe to that definition myself, but I feel that it raises some interesting points - if the content was more explicit, would that draw attention away from other aspects of the game? Is sexual arousal social commentary? etc etc. Even by the above definition of ‘art’, I think this game would be considered as art - when discussing possible story ideas with the author, he always described them together with the themes that the story would examine.
Unfortunately though (to get back on topic), it’s not something I can probably tell too many people about in real life… To give one reason: In Australian law, story containing strong descriptions of sex/violence = ok, artwork containing sexual content/violence = ok, these two elements combined in a Visual Novel (ie computer game) = illegal, as computer games unsuitable for a minor to play will be refused classification, ie be banned :mad: .
The more cultural conservative a society is, the more time it takes to accept something that challenges “morality” within it. Porn has ALWAYS been an issue in Westernized culture – mostly thanks to the Church: ancient Greeks and Romans were frankly open about it. Adult content in books has been regulated and viewed as socially distasteful since the birth of the country. In the day of George Washington, “gentlemen” did not view vulgar illustrations of naked women. However “roughneck” explorers and foreigners (the outcasts of the day) did – or were at least negatively painted that way.
It has taken literally two centuries for a porn magazine to gain the level of “acceptance” it has, in our culture. Note how it was gradual: Playboy – arguably the first major publication – stressed how it was to stimulate the mind (with the articles) and the senses (with naked women). It stressed being an ARTFORM. Even then it faced heavy challenges from conservatives; who then influenced political groups.
Then Larry Flint comes along and makes Hustler – which is downright “crude and lust” as Larry best puts it. He fought a HELL OF A BATTLE – only by the grace of the First Amendment did he win. However Larry was a smart man. He made his battle against the system itself – he made it where the “common man” could sympathize with him. He changed the PERCEPTION of what porn was and could be.
And truth be told: Hustler became MORE popular AFTER the legal battles than before. Because the “liberal media” made Larry sympathetic to everyone’s plight… or was it Larry who used the media?
Twenty years later (20!) quasi-porn in like Maxim become popular and commonplace. It was just more evolution of the trend… but it also took a looooong time. Who knows what will happen in another twenty?
And that’s just the battle for porn PUBLICATIONS. The porn video market, has its own uphill battle… and thus so will porn gaming. To each their own wars: to each their own victories.
So what I’m saying is that the youth of digital gaming, in comparison to other forms of media entertainment, is a negative factor. It wasn’t until the late 90’s that video games were able to shake off the notion of being an expensive toy. And that wasn’t until the “gaming generation” came of age and started filling in the ranks of their predecessors: thus it was the new blood. Just as how anime and Chinese cinema (the influences) are now prevalent in American entertainment: the new blood have made it so.
Because it’s fiction trying to emulate a form of life that’s a sensitive topic: sexual prowess is a status symbol. That’s just our base instinct (after all, some biologists have been saying the REAL purpose to life is to breed). To claim that you need help is demeaning – like how being a virgin in high school was demeaning. Sex is social power.
Most forms of role-playing are still seen as a nerdy thing: and that’s because role playing is seen as an escape from reality. The perception is that cool people don’t need to escape from reality, because reality is good. Nerds and rejects need to escape from reality, because they can’t cope with it.
Talking about FANTASY in a real world is perceived as a negative, because REALITY is more important to most. Why do I care about your FICTIONAL elf killing dragons? My REAL LIFE pass in the last State Bowl won the high school championship, got us in the paper, and gave me a scholarship to Virginia Tech.
Same goes for eroge. Why would anyone care about my “sexual victory” in a GAME, when Bob over there is telling the story of how he was banging Karen (that hot European intern with a FUCKTASTIC body) on the kitchen floor last night? His was more tangible than mine.
I disagree. It has a LOT do with it. What do politicians and conservative groups say about eroge or games remotely perceived as sexual? Here’s an exact quote: “Look what your children are playing!” Who said that? Senator Thompson… all the damn time.
Note the wording: Look what your CHILDREN are playing. He stresses that games are not for adults. He stresses that games are entirely for children. If you listen to him, adult games are not targeted for adults: they’re targeted towards children. He uses the perception that video games are merely toys, to help win his battles.
None denounces a romance novel with the quote, “look what your children are reading!” Why? Because people wonder why children are reading something INTENDED for adults. There’s no children romance novels outside of innocent fairy tales. But this view point doesn’t extend totally to gaming: but that’s changing. For example a game like God of War or Grand Theft Auto are NOT seen as a children’s game. But note how much flack both titles have drawn… still an uphill battle.
Also: does eroge have a dedicated political interest group?
Did you know that the Senator of Washington, argued against Thompson on the Senate floor about video games? Hmmm… where is the headquarters for Nintendo of America again? Do you think that might have been a factor? I mean is it mere coincidence that Nintendo pours money into political campaigns, JUST LIKE EVERY MAJOR BUSINESS DOES!?
The adult video industry pays MILLIONS to get politicians in office, to will relax distribution and filming laws against them. For decades, the porn industry didn’t have any factor with movie guilds – they were shunned. However politicians (and judges) have made laws and rulings claiming this was unconstitutional. This has given them LOTS more pull and resources to make high quality productions.
The video game industry has been doing the same against censorship and negative media.
Now how about eroge? Does Peach Princess pay their local Senator or Representative a visit?
Narq: Didn’t want to quote your whole post to basically say “I agree 100%”. Many of these games are little more than porn, and porn in any package is subject, I think, to what you described. In fact, the words you picked are exactly what I wish I would have said.
Darkstar: This isn’t quite right. While a good many of these eroge are pure and simple porn, ones that aren’t can get shopped around even to people who don’t do porn. I have been pushing Crescendo on my non-porn consuming friends, with varying degrees of success. (The one who I’ve got to play it so far liked it.)
I think the “porn” vs “art” debate is really the proper answer to the question. You’ve created a false dichotomy.
Consider Flowers for Algernon (the extended novel) compared to your average romance novel. While FfA features several sex scenes, no one in their right mind would put the two anywhere in the same class. But they’re in the same media.
Likewise, Xenogears features a few places where characters have sex. Nobody would place XChange 1 or DYLHB in the same league as Xenogears.
Most of the products in the eroge industry are “porn”, and not “literature” or “art”. Especially the domestic lineup; classic GC’s title selections are heavily skewed in favor of porn. (Kango 1/2, DYLAHB 1/2, CSMT 1/2, etc.)
In fact, the games that are different are the exact same games I’m trying to push – and they’re the same reason I am still a fan of this genre. Crescendo, Nocturnal Illusion, Kana – even Snow Drop (which really isn’t in the same league as any of those) – these are all literature with erotic parts. But most of the games in English aren’t, and so most of them get the “porn” stigma that DOES get attached to other media.
That is, the whole thing is a selection bias. The other media are much more mature, and therefore have a far wider breadth to draw from. Visual novels, however, have a much larger history of being ‘porn’ than they do not. [Note: that last is based on hearsay, not firsthand eroge industry knowledge. Your mileage may vary.] Therefore the perception is that b-games are eroge and thus porn – because that’s the context people have.
Shingo, I was saying that you have to have a friendship in which you can share porn between you and your friends to be able to share with them ero-games. Why? Because you need to know enought about each other to not waste each others time, and to not completely sicken each other.
What people find stimulating is different. What will capture the attention of one person, will often be boring to another. Or it might even sicken them. That’s the problem with anything that really touches on the erotic, and why major media tends to stay very basic in its depiction of it when aiming for a mainstream audience.
Consider: You’ve got a friend that really loves super heroes, likes magic girls anime, and laughs at most of the spoofs of those subjects. Would you turn this friend on to Jewel Knight Crusaders? Between the loli, the rape, the significant amounts of blood at the deflowering of so many of the girls, and the anal action in the game— do you think you’d even dare? Most people wouldn’t, not without knowing what the friend’s tolerances and possibly some of his kinks were. Give that game to a good friend of yours that has been through the wrong traumatic experience, and you could damage your relationship between the two of you.
That’s the thing. If you don’t know your friends well enough, you aren’t going to be recommending them anything but the “boring”, middle of the road stuff.
It’s a lot easier to recommend a non-erotic movie or book to a friend. Most people just don’t sit down and discuss their favorite secret fantasies— not if they happen to involve stuff past the basic “norms”. That’s where that “prude” or “conservative” bit comes in— maybe you like to be tied up and dominated in your favorite sex-play, and hence, in your prefered ero gaming. But you aren’t going to tell that to all your friends. Heck, you might never tell them, and they just learn about it from a girlfriend or ex of yours.
So…basically… You mean that…
You’d rather keep things secret as not to arouse opposition…am I correct…?
At any rate… We agree… “In secrecy is strength… None can oppose one who cannot be found…”
“…Sou desu…”
So in the end… “Even friends are still strangers…”
One can not truly know about another…
Here are a few more thoughts relating to the art versus porn debate. There are some generalisations below, but I think these observations (though not necessarily the conclusions) are generally true.
In drawn 2D art (as opposed to 2D hentai), nude drawing is done extensively, and occasionally scenes of sexual activity are depicted. The difference between these and what might be seen in an erogame, are the details. Normally in ‘art’ art, the more explicit components of sex aren’t depicted (penetration, bodily fluids etc) whilst these are probably the norm in 2D hentai. In some ways this is similar to how sex is portrayed in almost always portrayed movies - being simulated rather than real.
In literature, sex scenes are obviously quite common. However, I think the difference separating them from ‘erotica’ is what they focus on. Usually there is an extensive focus in an erogame on the ‘mechanics’ of sex, and associated descriptions, whereas in a non-erotic novel, the focus is more on the circumstances surrounding the act/emotions etc.
Even though most erogames have at least some semblance of a plot, and contain a lot of non-H content, on some level they are meant to be sexually arousing, which probably means most people would consider them to be pornographic.
The first thing that people think about games is that what you can do in it. As an example here’s an infamous game GTA: you can butcher the whole city if you want to.
Now when this person hears about a game that has sex as a component what will he think?
You can have sex with a girl any way you want???
And then will he inscribe his most preverted fantasy’s on the previous thought.
And his own thoughts will revile him, and he will project his anger on you.
What is the general view on games? Crush, kill, rend, be god, be evil, do what you want, bla bla bla.
Now this point of view on an eroge? You can fuck? Oh my god.
I myself dont give a damn about what other people think.
The other day I was playing with Gore Screaming Show in the students hostle at 14:00pm, it was hilarious
Teacher bursts into the room asking what the hell am I doing.
Chick on the screen just got disemboweled. And the rest of the story is even more funny. XD
That is actually one of the most valid things said. Not that Narg’s other points were completely meritless, but this, along with changing generations is probably the two biggest reason.
Another reason not yet covered has to do with the way anime was first seen by most people alive and active today. It had some content, very tame ecchi by today’s standards, but then considered quite obscene. The press then started reviewing this as pornographic and then anime as a general got the stigma of either porn or action or both.
While recent years this stigma on being just action has eroded, the stigma on being perverted is still around. This is in part due to humanities tendancy to focus on negative aspects longer than positive ones. The erotic content of anime is viewed by most westerners as bad, thus the stigma remains even as more proof comes out that it isn’t all like that. The fact they can point to shows still coming out like this just helps fuel the notion.
The above is important when dealing specifically with eroge games. Without it, you cannot get the full context. Other comments previously made about games being for kids is relevent. But also, in the eyes of most westerners, animation is for kids. This is much more fundimental to the way of thinking of most westerners than even gaming perpuated by Saturday morning cartoons & Disney.
Thus you have a combination of the two, animation and gaming which is suppose to be seen as kids stuff, roled up into one with the stigma attached from being anime, and which just would help reinforce the notion of the sterotype to others.
Then finally western society thinks showing a breast, penis or vagina is much worse than showing a man getting ripped in half with a chainsaw, having a major gun battle with blood & guts flying everywhere, etc. Even to the point of showing kids if forced they would rather most kids be exposed to over the top violence & gore than even the most slightest hint of nudity.
When you wrap that with something that soceity thinks is suppose to be “kids stuff” ie animation & games…
You obviously don’t trust your friends enough. All of my friends know I not only play these games, some have asked to borrow them and they all know I like loli. I do borrow some from another freind of mine at times as well. Of course if you’re friends don’t like anime, that might not go over so well.
You could be evil like me and just lend them a game that doesn’t have much eroge in it saying, “Try this. I liked it.”
Lol. I did just that, several times. None of them ever gave negative impressions, and some even came back for more; i’m beginning to worry i might lose one of my H-anime DVDs or game disks one day to ‘a series of unfortunate events caused by uncontrollable circumstances?’ /someone else borrowed it, got hooked, and wont give it back :S
Indeed, it’s kind of ironic. I find it utterly stupid to think that most average modern people ( let me insert: /n00bs ) woud rather choose to let young people or teenagers to watch horror movies, kickass action flicks and play games involving guns, bombs, assasinations and more guns, as well as fast-paced, supernatural fighting, with a helluva lot of blood n gore spilling over, all to utterly negative effect; and then are dread to even think of them playing b-games, even with only eechi or slightly H- content. The issue of sex and anything of sexual nature being considered taboo, IMO, is something that should be tossed out the window, BUT NOT completely. (at least, not to the point where minors, or rather, those who are’nt of the proper age to understand it clearly, have access to it)
But of course, this is how it is, that fact having been instilled in the culture of the Western world, or any civilization, for that matter. This is one of the things that ‘kind of’ differentiates us from all the other life forms on this planet - and has, sadly, turned itself on ourselves.
Has anyone thought about the fact that when we were still in the primitive ages, all we ever did was hunt, eat, sleep, find shelter, and… well, yeah, breed? (not to mention settling who’s the top male with the fist or the club) and then flash back several thousand years later to find ourselves literally doing a hell of a lot more than that, thinking about not failing that presentation to get that job promotion at work, or some stuff like that? Or a person is considered tops by most peers at school beacause he/she is rich, popular or fashionable, even though they suck [color=#FFFFFF]balls[/color] at everything else?
I’m not suggesting we go back to ‘those days’; just a reminder of what we used to do in those times that ‘civilization’ did not exist, and what it has taken away and done to us. Well, come to think of it, we do like it better as it is now, but we seem to have forgotten something along the way.
To think that something almost every person on this planet must and will do inevitably someday (unless you’re a fan of Platonic relationships, a hermit, a nun, or an alien-made organic contact-purpose humanoid interface, e.g. Yuki Nagato
[uh, wait… i’m not too sure about that one… darn Haruhi.AddictSock32 worm] )
is treated with such malice and disgust (in comparison to the more grisly crap that you get on the news almost everyday… hmm, if you think of it, seems like all you get on the news is the negative stuff anyway) that most (if not all) Catholic, Puritan, or people so prude it makes me want to puke, would go shush + harsh criticism + branding you a perv without even the slightest idea of WTF is it all about anyway (as is typical of n00bs, after all.)
If ever these kinds of people played a really good bgame (IMHO, i’d literally make em do it under threat of being mass assaulted by wriggly tentacles :shock: and i’d have em play Kana and have her hydraulically crush their hearts), i might say that most, if not all of them, would toss that crappy idealism out the window into the plasma combustion bin where it can burn to subatomic hell; and have them realize that, beyond all this taboo crap, there is someting that is NOT demeaning at all, and in fact, is full of meaning, (not to mentiona story you never get to know from anywhere else) depending on their take on it.
But after all is said and done, that’s just my two measly coppers of opinion that probably might not matter; but i hope it does to people out there.
BTW… Pro Gaming and Ero gaming do have potential to mix and match, IMHO.
Wasn’t it British censors that renamed the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles, because they thought the word “ninja” was too violent?
Yes…only in America does violence trump any sense of sexualality to the point that even the most extreme forms of violence & torture are pale in comparison to even the slightest hint of nudity when it comes to social acceptance, especially for what most of society would rather their kids be exposed to as the nudity, even brief and slight is considered a far greater evil. O_o
