There’s always the option of creating a “subsidiary” for releasing adult products, like Kitty Media to Media Blasters, Critical Mass to Right Stuf, and Softcel to ADV.
Plus, it’s not like they “had” to exclusively stick to visual novels… They could have also gone a J-List/Rosenqueen-esque route and sold various other forms of Japanese merchandise to help fund their efforts to release visual novels. You know, like figures, accessories, soundtracks, DVDs localized by other companies, snacks, anime apparel and other products that would be hard to find outside of Japan…
Of course, you know and understand that in Japan, even if they’re tied, the adult PC erogame market and the non-adult console galgame market are two different ones, right? It’s the Western fans stupid concept that a bishoujo game has to be adult that is the problem here. Hirameki wanted to attack the non-adult market, which is a perfect an legitimate goal, therefore released the non-adult versions of their titles. Or, if you prefer, the titles being part of the market they wanted to approach.
As for localizing “titles that had (not) H-versions”, there is only a handful of them, since most console games are ports of the PC games – but just as good or better in themselves. You guys are all acting as if the galgame console market is a subpar market of the PC ones, when IMO it’s not. As I wrote, galgamers often buy the console versions even when they already bought and played the PC versions because they gain something from it. Really, except if you have a lot of time to follow the PC game news, keeping with the console market is the best way to play the better games, since the probability than the best PC games are ported is very high… and you’ll get bug corrections, additional material/story/characters, etc.
It’s the problem, though. There are two distinct (though tightly tied) markets in Japan for galgames: the adult (PC) market and the non-adult (console) market. PP covers the adult market, Hirameki wanted to cover the non-adult market. Then, suddenly, the Westerner fans, because they blended both market, instead of getting informed, complain about Hirameki releasing non-adult games… when it was exactly their position.
So, yeah, I guess I could agree that Hirameki didn’t know their customers: they thought they were knowledgeable about what they wanted when they were just your average ignorant fans, not even wanting to get educated. :mad:
But, heh, I’m sure people who complain perfectly know that the non-adult version is so much “toned down” and inferior to the original one that it’s more often than not ported back in PC, adult form (i.e. adding ero-scenes to the parts that were added for the non-adult version). :eek:
A “toned down” version of a “toned down” version?! How awful! And the people who previously bought the original PC, adult version would buy this new “toned down toned down” version?! Really? :eek:
Well, yes. Probably because they know it’s not “toned down”, but “enhanced”, who knows?
So, heh.
Typical fan: “Oh, we don’t play for the sex, you know. We want erogames because we know they have a story and we want the story!”
Hirameki: “No problem, then it’s perfect: we’ll bring you the non-adult version, since they’re all about the story and even have more story, characters, routes, and overall material than the adult version!”
Typical fan: “WHAT?! How dare you? Where’s my hentai? No sex?! You %¬µ¬£%¬Å¬ò/@#!!!”
[ 01-10-2008, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]
I don’t think it is ignorance on the part of the American fan; in fact I feel it is the opposite.
Several fans, even in my backwater, have access to varying levels of original Japanese material; information about titles (in various forms) pass back and forth freely via meetings and internet forums such as this.
Firstly, it boils down to lack of acceptance for censorship here. If knowledge exists, or can be ascertained from an offering, that editing has taken place the next question is naturally “why”? “What am I missing?” “Why do I, as an adult in a free society, have to accept a product which has had something detracted from it?”
Secondly, the more material added to it, ie enhancing, is embraced if not relished (at least IMHO.) I often order for more perks than just sub/dub, uncensored graphics, and the like (collectors editions, etc.) However taking anything away, even petty things, begs the question “Am I seeing everything or am I receiving something inferior product?”
This isn’t a cheap hobby on either side of the great(er) pond. The last thing I, as well as some friends, wish to feel is that you have paid money for an inferior product or the editing wishes of another (dictating what you can or cannot fully examine and come to grips with in your own time and place.)
Some call this expectation “spoiled”, which to some degree I will attest. I would add that any company ignoring this expectation “foolhardy.” It may be a small niche here, but considering the physical and cultural divides which exist they (the fans) can be fairly knowledgeable regardless.
Yeah, it is true that it isn’t always ignorance. A lot of times people are aware of things added to an all-ages version, but still don’t view the extra content added in a product as justifiable if it’s an edition where the more “controversial” things have been taken out simply because they don’t want to support censored products. Those two things don’t neccessarily negate each other in the eyes of an audience who had to and are still putting up with edits for years. I mean, they’re the ones who have to pay money… It isn’t like they couldn’t release both versions or a content restoration patch anyway.
IMO, it is, for from what you said, you’re blending the adult (PC) market and the non-adult (console), considering the console market is a sub-product, an inferior product, of the PC market when, from what I know and experienced, it is not. Different, tied, but in no way inferior.
So, you’d like to be raped like the Japanese gamers, playing full price the original PC version, then full price for the console versions since it is usually just better (as I wrote several times already, why do you think gamers buy then again?), then full price again for the version ported back to PC?
So, yeah, I maintain my point: pure ignorance about the dynamics of the bishoujo market and the links between the PC and console markets.
[ 01-10-2008, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]
That may be what you believe (I’m not neccessarily disagreeing) but that belief isn’t neccessarily unanimous amongst everyone. It’s all relative to the buyers themselves. Some may agree, others might not.
And if you think that the console non-adult version isn’t always “better” than the original version, let’s just say that the companies are trying their best to make it so so that gamers would spend money once again in this new edition.
As for “belief”, heck, you only have to regularly read the game magazines about the matter to read what the tries the companies make, in order to make the console version “better” and more attractive.
No problem. Bring me someone with this opinion and we’ll debate about the matter, with arguments and examples if needed.
You, of course, understand that “original Japanese material” means nothing since the current point is that the “original Japanese material” can perfectly be non-adult versions of the titles?
[ 01-10-2008, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]
On a last note, regardless of whether or not Hirameki released superior versions of titles (I can’t decide for anyone), they didn’t rub the fans the right way. Complain about ignorance all you want, but the fans were their only target audience, and they got pissed off with Hirameki one way or another: That’s what it boiled down to. The Japanese and English market and its fandoms are still different. You can try to pick up where they left off if you feel they deserve a second chance. Heck, that’d be pretty nice.
I’m not sure, but this whole debate seems to reek of snobby fanboyism and elitism. Count me out.
Should a book salesman offer me a great novel to read and I find but one page blacked out, I would inquire why-regardless of how good it was.
If he offered me a newer version, with added chapters and storylines in fair exchange still knowing I would find the same page edited out, I’d still be dismayed. I’d always wish to know what was on that blackened page.
That is the problem with such things as editing, condensing, and censorship. It makes you feel cheated-even if by only a little.
That is how I felt with Battle of the Planets and G-Force after I learned about the original Gatchaman. Even now in anime titles such as Elfen Lied the editing in the NA release makes you feel left out in a small way.
I will say this much as truth: add all you wish and it is much ado of nothing; take away and you always weigh the compromise that has been made. I vote with my wallet, as most, and mine is cast with as little removal as possible.
To be fair, books are often released abridged and people don’t freak out (and may prefer the abridged version). Movies are often released in multiple cuts. If you watch any movie in the theater you are probably watching something from which at least one scene has been removed. “Adding all you wish” to a movie is generally a very bad idea!
The problem isn’t whether or not something is edited. The problem is the expectation.
If you’re selling your H-removed games primarily to a market of japanophiles who are mostly familiar with H games, they are likely to feel cheated whether or not it’s a bad edit. If you’re selling them to people who have no such expectations, they will not be upset provided that the result is good.
If it is a bad edit, everyone will feel cheated. (Supposedly, some of the games Hirameki released, while that may have been a legit Japanese console version, come out feeling like large chunks of the plot went missing.)
And if it’s not a bad edit, then the people who liked the edited version may still be curious and willing to find out what’s in the ‘director’s cut’ if that’s released separately…
Not related to this Hirameki stuff, but Elfen Lied’s NA release wasn’t edited…
[EDIT] I’m not gonna bump this topic with anymore offtopic stuff. but ADV did not leave that OVA episode out on purpose or because of content reasons. They simply aquired the rights to release it after the American DVDs of the TV episodes were already done and sold, and ultimately could not think of a good way to sell a single 22 minute episode. They were simply too late, and fans had spread the fansubbed version of the OVA episode far and wide already.
But everything is edited…how else can they sell you the directors cut? Everything is censored in some way, whether it be for societies morals or an editors whim…it exists in every facet of entertainment.
That’s the way I look at Hirameki’s works, as long as I enjoy the edited version. If I could read/ speak Japanese, I may hold a different view. But then why would I care about a english translation of an Japanese original, since I could enjoy the original?
I already bowed out but I will say: if this continues, then this thread will be locked. There is still, I think, a reason to keep this thread un-locked, and on topic.
Yes, it was. I didn’t come here to argue yet another point but if you wish to know the truth, let your fingers do the walking across the internet. It’s still there, just takes looking.
I would supply a link (given by a friend) to the actual download but due to the source I feel it isn’t proper; even I deleted it once I saw from whence it came so…seek and ye shall find.
Anyone saying editing doesn’t have that importance or effect is kidding themselves, not me. It isn’t given its’ own recognition in just about every media form for nothing. In gaming it is everything when you can access the original product and it isn’t the same. Could it be better by chance? Possibly. Could it be worse and explain a lot of strangeness with the product? Dern straight. You’d still find yourself asking questions. What is the motive for such change? Ut oh, hmm… Now you have to answer even more questions.
If it isn’t the original artist, team, or company doing it pre-release to fine tune the product then perhaps you just lost something…and why? Would you rather make that determination on content or someone else?
Your question for your-self. You vote your way, I’ll definately keep my vote mine.
I have both the Japanese and NA release of Elfen Lied, and they’re both the same.(Aside from the ‘Americanization’ in translation.) The only thing I know of that’s actually missing at all is an episode that was removed, however, that episode was actually removed from both the NA and JP versions, and was offered in JP as a special episode.
I’m not arguing one way or another on this, but you did make me curious in what exactly it is that was removed.(If it isn’t the episode I mentioned that is.) If you don’t feel like posting it, please feel free to PM me.
I’ll apologize for going off topic now and say only this;
It really doesn’t matter what the company did or didn’t do, what -does- matter is the fact that they were making an effort to bring over some titles we may have otherwise never seen.(Can you imagine if they had never done Ever 17?)
Yep, it is the additional JP episode that wasn’t made available here (I own both JP/NA too, little differences otherwise.) I even checked into it. That decision was, according to the few I talked to, made for very good reasons.
Gotta be careful with such things. Decisions made for such very good reasons is dependant totally upon the individual(s) making them and sometimes distorts and even destroys things (Ghost Stories…eck, I hold myself back before I carry on.)
For good or ill of the product(s) or even the company(ies) (in this case Hirameki) that is something that can be argued. The principal(s) behind editing or tampering with original source materials is not a barrel of monkeys, it’s an 800 pound gorilla.
Brings back bad memories of the butchering attempts on Gullivers’ Travels, Huckleberry Finn, eck…I regress, my apologies.
Agrees. Not including a bonus episode does not equal editing - they never even touched the material. They’d have to license it in the first place (pay more cash).
This would be similar to Hirameki’s situation - as mentioned earlier - where they never licensed the adult versions (save thier second and third releases) and so they can’t possibly say provide an “uncensor/adult scene patch” for their titles without forking over more money.
but I will say: if this continues, then this thread will be locked. There is still, I think, a reason to keep this thread un-locked, and on topic.