How naive. The government is the only group with the power to manifest your fear into reality.
Well then we’ll just have to wait and see what they’ll do about it I guess…I’m just hoping it won’t get worst. 
You’re confusing “freedom of exposure” with “freedom of expression”. They’re not equal. “Restriction of access” and “restriction of expression” aren’t the same at all.
Who wrote anything about Peter? Surely, I didn’t. Did I quote something around the lines of “Peter should have challenged the laws…”? Surely, I didn’t. Mayhap people could actually read what’s written when arguing a point?
What I quoted was your proposition, according to which, “Censorship is an evil that trumps all other considerations. It’s not a matter of right and wrong here; we disagree on premises. That premise is essentially an esoteric philosophical argument. You can’t possibly prove it, just as I can’t prove it wrong”. You didn’t write that Peter hasn’t a duty to challenge laws going against freedom of speech, you wrote that it cannot be proven wrong that censorship is “evil”, which is a proposition generally considered wrong since the very definition of “freedom of speech” is “the freedom to speak freely without censorship or limitation”, therefore censorship infringes on freedom of speech (by definition), which is universally considered a fundamental human right. How does something infringing on a fundamental human right not evil?
We’re just using different words to say the same thing, then. If freedom of expression is limited by freedom of exposure, then censorship is not an evil that trumps all other considerations. Your point of it being a “fundamental human right” means it’s simply one important consideration in every situation involving censorship. I can probably agree with that.
Uh, no, because they’re not the same thing at all. It’s like the freedom to buy guns doesn’t mean the selling of guns cannot be restricted (and, no, children can’t buy guns). Freedom of expression is NOT limited by freedom of exposure because they’re two completely different matters.
Not “my” point. It’s a point universally acknowledged by humanitarian organizations and governments alike.
You yourself are the only one in control of what you do, and you yourself are the only one who can determine whether to manifest your own emotions into reality. Seriously, you’re forgetting the fact that the government is a massive bureaucracy with a diverse cast of politicicans who’re in constant disagreement with each other even over the smallest of things and takes forever to do anything, whereas any small organization like JAST can do something at the drop of a hat due to the fact that there’s little chance of internal resistance. JAST USA wasn’t induced to censor this title because someone told them to do so under gunpoint–They overreacted out of their own fear and did this out of their own free will.
Seriously, KK is a “vanilla” title that doesn’t feature any sort of non-consentual sex, and even the scenes in question feature nothing more than mere nudity (not even masturbation, for crying out loud)–Even underage nudity has always been present in localized anime and manga long before this title was even announced. To even consider the remote possibilty of JAST being convicted under obscenity laws for releasing KK is absurd, especially considering the fact that those types of laws generally go after acts of explicit, gross sexual activity, not just mere scenes of nudity. Hell, just look at the cover of this game–If USPS were to open someone’s order and look at the cover at a glance, would it even suggest to them that it would contain “obscene” material? Obscenity laws are nothing new, and other people have been convicted of them long before the Handly case–But that hasn’t stopped adult studios from operating, including those who create the type of fetishy material that has a higher chance of getting convicted, because even if the results are bad if they get convicted, they still have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than get convicted by any type of subjective obscenity law. If obscenity laws are that fearsome, despite the fact that the possibilty of getting convicted under them is remote, why even start up a business releasing adult materials here in the first place? I mean they’re still selling Water Closet uncensored for crying out loud, and yet they’re worried that some implied 17 year old’s nipple is going to get them in big trouble, even though such types of nudity are common in other anime/manga titles?
The idea of using the “government” or “obscenity laws” as a means of deflecting blame from them for their overreacting is ludicrous, because the content they censored would hardly even register on the “obscenity” radar if they remained uncensored–It’s not the government that needs to be changed, it’s their own lack of self-control and self-confidence that actually needs to be changed.
The law right now doesn’t need as much changing as our own attitudes do. We’re far too susceptible to panicking and acting like the sky is falling when a legal case comes up every. single. time.
Unless you’re saying your line of reasoning leads to different conclusions than my own, I’d say we’re just wrangling over definitions here. I don’t really care if your definitions are more fashionable or rhetorically pleasing.
well for now let us hope that JAST will decide to get some legal advice before releasing any future titles.
note, post in this forum (good as they maybe) are from strangers :lol: , proper legal advice is needed instead of JAST depending on Peter’s gut feeling.
Well for a massive bureaucracy that takes for ever to do anything, they sure are passing alot of large legislation in a rapid fashion, or do you just not pay attention to that. You seem to be confused as to my point, or just ignoring it completely. My point wasn’t that JAST was forced into anything by the government, it was exactly the opposite. And that all media companies are doing the same on a regular basis, some even have staff or large departments dedicated to censorship.
My main point is you should be worring less about JAST putting undies on your loli, and more about Washington D.C. ass raping the Constitution.
He also seems to be missing the point that it is an army versus an individual if a person decideds to buck the government… that usually doesn’t end “well” for the individual.
No they weren’t forced to do this as far as we know. But, I’m sure they were thinking of a possible huge fine if they were audited. And with the rampant piracy out there… We’ve all seen what piracy does to these companies, luckily JastUSA has stayed around through it. Simply put they would lose more money then gained off of sales if they were fined (I wouldn’t put anything past the US government anymore).
On the topic of censorship, I’d rather them censor, than close completely, if it meant that a few scenes had to be edited out or JastUSA go under, by all means edit the scenes out.
But nothing. You’re ignoring how I specifically mentioned that such chances of actually getting convicted with KK are next to non-existent, especially considering that it’s already extremely light on the erotic elements, as well as the fact that the scenes that were censored contained no sex or masturbation–That is why they’re overreacting. If obscenity statutes are that much of a threat in releasing something like KK, then why the hell are they even still selling Water Closet? You realize just how preposterous this sort of fear is when you apply it to such a vanilla title?
If anything, they have a far greater chance of going down due to rampant piracy than getting in trouble with the law. The censorship of KK doesn’t help either, as some fans who were interested in buying the game might turn to pirating it in retaliation to JAST’s treatment of its content.
Actually, you wouldn’t even know how well it would go, because those that try usually choose to give up in the process and “let” the government win, rather than choosing to fight it until the end.
Army vs individual = Automatic loss for the individual? Tell that to the special forces, the snipers, the Mujahideen and the Vietcong.
Whether it’s censored or not, doesn’t give those that intended on buying it the right to pirate, sorry but that logic completely fails. 3 pictures is no reason to steal their product, plain and simple. As for the why are they selling Water Closet still, I have no idea, I never played it so I don’t know whether or not it has depictions of what could or couldn’t be considered under - age characters. Those that didn’t play the Japanese version would have been non the wiser on the little underwear addition.
I agree with your statement of they have a far greater chance of going down due to piracy than by getting in trouble with the law, but why would they want to risk it over three pictures? There’s always that chance that the law decides they want to see what’s going on… Until media started reporting on the hot coffee mod, no one made a huge fuss about it. But, in the aftermath Take2 and Rockstar ended up paying substantial fines and settlements and with nutcases like Jack Thompson running around (thank goodness he was disbarred, but there are many more like him) why take chances? Someone will eventually find a way to add the pictures back and this whole thing will blow over and when someone else does it, then Jast is completely out of harms way.
This has nothing to do with one person going up against a government… all those that you listed are individuals and not just a single individual.
I will leave what I’ve said about the censorship of KK as said - I am not for it, I understand why it was done and it may not actually hurt them that much in the long run, unless those who dislike it are really vocal and get out there telling those who would buy it not to any why. I also contend that considering I suspect it’s just a CG replacement it should be easy to reinsert the original images.
I shall address this particular aspect. This is why, in the other forum, we were trying to talk about ways of getting people together to fight for this. That’s what people do when they want something…well at least people who want to make change. They band together.
Whether they’re indignant of their censorship gives them the right to steal the game is irrelevant. If they’re angry and indignant, why would they care if they actually have the right to do so or not if they can’t get it how they wanted it anyways? You can’t really tell them that their logic completely fails, because if some fans feel indignant enough, they will feel that they’re perfectly justified to steal it because they themselves will think that JAST USA didn’t have the right to screw them over. If they feel angry enough, they may feel that they’re justified in hurting JAST USA for their acts of censorship–I’m afraid that’s far more likely to kill them than some court ruling. Making people feel as if though they have to compromise something in this fashion is not the best way to retain customer loyalty, especially if the people who are against such editing tend to be particularly vocal.
And as far as Water Closet is concerned, why don’t you actually check out SomethingAwful’s review of the game? It might not have “underage” characters, but it definitely has content that could be declared “obscene” in any court.
Why risk over these three pictures, you ask? I don’t know–Has it occured to you that there’s no real risk to be found? Has it occured to you that other localized anime/manga titles actually feature uncensored nudity of people that would be considered underage and that the companies who’ve released such content have never run into trouble?
If there’s always a chance that the law decides that they want to see what’s going on and if that chance is as significant as you say they are, why did JAST USA even consider the prospect of releasing adult materials in the first place? By continuing to release adult products, including but not limited to eroge (remember, they also sell sex toys and manga that could also be rendered “obscene”), they will never be out of harms way, and to be losing sleep over something as soft as KK is ridiculous. Even with KK censored, there are other titles uncensored that contain similar content, and other titles out there that feature what could be considered as “obscene”. Risks always exist, no matter what you do–If you’re so pessimistic and always focus on the possibility of bad things actually happening and overreact without even considering the fact that it has a practically non-existent probability of actually happening, then why even bother do anything at all?
KK is light on the erotic elements and the content in question is practically one of the most vanilla games I’ve seen–If they’ve become so afraid of the possibility of getting convicted on just that alone, why are they still even releasing adult games here?
Besides, the Hot Coffee incident was never a legal issue–Nobody went to court for it (something that PP was overtly afraid of).
You can’t say for sure if anyone will ever actually find a way to add the pictures back. I certainly haven’t seen anyone make an uncensor patch for XC3, despite two years of waiting.
No, when someone goes into battle, then he is obviously going against a government or a similar type of organization. The types of individulals I mentioned are those who always had to fight outnumbered against their enemies–It goes to show you that each individual can be far stronger than one might actually believe, given that the individual has the right methods and attitudes.
Government = thousands of politicians, thousands of judges, and millions of enforcement individuals (military/police)
Individual = one person
One person versus millions… yes, that individual has a great shot if he just believes hard enough :roll:
Do you not understand that they would freeze all assets, hound that person day and night, and if it came to violence have state of the art weaponry at their disposal? I guess one could run and hide in the arctic, but then that would probably be worse than fighting and losing. At least one is quicker.
Wow, talk about a COMPLETE defeat. Yes, I think it’s clear that no one can prevail against the government by themselves; we’re all going to need some help to win.
I think now is a good time for me to withdraw from this discussion. Good Night.
But compare that to zero persons versus millions–How’s the change going to begin if not even a single individual is willing to go up?
Besides, just one person? You think there’s only one person in this world that thinks so? Even then, the chances of success are better than doing nothing at all, pal. You’re not exactly helping by twiddling your thumbs being so scared of everything around you to the point where you’ve convinced yourself that can’t go out and live your life as you can possibly make of it just because something could happen. You only feel like a puppet with strings because you’ve convinced yourself that you have strings attached to you and aren’t willing to think about your existence in any other way. You’re moaning about how everything around you is a conspiracy theory and how everyone’s out to get you, yet you’re neither willing to do or try anything? Geez, you make it sound like life is too hopeless. If everything around me was that bad as you’ve been saying, then I wouldn’t care about whether my attempts are going to be futile–Life under the government as you’d describe would be worse than death, and the last thing I’d want to do is nothing at all if that’s the case.
You really need to lay off the political conspiracy theories for once. It’s obviously destroying your own freaking attitude. It’s not even worth worrying over if you’re also acting like a do-nothing slouch who feels he has no self-worth.
Yes of course, if you band together with others it’s possible to take down an army. Which is why we have class action lawsuits, if we somehow managed to turn an individual into hundreds of thousands, then we could easily have most of these laws changed. Especially if it’s an election year.
well a bit offtopic, but I decided to give Jewel Knights Crusaders a try since it is being brought up… but for some reason I can’t find it on jlist, jast or g-collections websites! any one knows if the title have been pulled?
note, I did find it at animenations at a very low (read, we want to remove this from our stock 
) price.