J-List Censorship

Visual Novel Community Off Topic
#1

I found this buried in the “Lamuness” thread and thought it deserved further discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Not sure, I just noticed it last night as well, something about the credit card processing company demanding they do that to the pictures.

Why now though, did they go to a new processing company, or did the processing company change the person in charge? Also isn’t J-List based in San Diego at least part of it? If so I think if the processing company is forcing this they are violating the First Amendment. Seriously a while ago the Supreme Court of the United States said that nudity and such pictures were protected by the First Amendment and it was unlawful for anyone to require them censored or did I misinterpt that ruling? Yes age warnings might be needed but so long as they are in place even in a publically accessable area no one can force the pictures censored or so I thought the ruling indicated.

Anyway, any clue how long they will remain so? They so far are the only one Peach Princess is not censored yet nor is Jastusa, not that I am complaining but why is only J-List being targted?

Is anyone else bothered by the recent J-List censorship? I assume it was done in response to a demand by one of the credit card companies that J-list cover the “naughty bits” in their illustrations or face loss of partnership.

It troubles me that a financial company can dictate the content of a merchant site. Were they influenced by complaints from uptight customers? If so, I foresee this censorship as being far from “temporary”. More likely, it is the first step toward disociating themselves from ‘objectionable’ merchants altogether. Will J-list lose its ability to process credit card orders in the future? That could severely impact the company’s ability to conduct future business online.

I also wonder who was assigned the formidable task of placing all those ‘fig leaves’ over all the explicit illustrations.

#2

Well as that quote shows it troubles me too that a financial company thinks and tries to enforce it’s will on the content of a merchant site.

Why would uptight customers go to a site like that to begin with though? A site that starts you off with a huge warning about under 18 does not strike me as one that a bunch of people would go to if they were fearful of seeing things online that might make them uptight.

It is my understanding it is just the current credit card processing company and they are looking for another one. I have since contact J-List and part of the response that I received was the following Our credit card company decided to get religion on the subject of adult products, and has insisted that we censor the images or lose our ability to accept credit cards. We’re looking for an alternate company to do business with . . .

My question then still is, is it a different processing company for each site, that is Peach Princess, J-List and JastUSA despite the connection that we know to exist between them?

Another question to those that might know, how goes the hunt for the new company?

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 05-30-2004).]

#3

That credit company is retarded. Religion shouldn’t show itself in these matters.

#4

Well I quite agree, no one should ever force their ideas, their views, and try and make others follow their ideas of right and wrong on anything, yes even issues that some might say are as controversal as nudity but it happens all the time particular from groups like parents associations and religions organizations. No offense made I know this is a generalization but it is also one that is seen often.

Yet I still wonder why is only J-List being targeted?

#5
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
It is my understanding it is just the current credit card processing company and they are looking for another one. I have since contact J-List and part of the response that I received was the following Our credit card company decided to get religion on the subject of adult products, and has insisted that we censor the images or lose our ability to accept credit cards. We're looking for an alternate company to do business with . . .
It's not clear from your message whether the complaint originated from a credit card company or some intermediate processing firm. If it's the former, that would be more worrisome. It's one thing for J-List to switch service providers; it's another for them to find a replacement for say, Mastercard.

I think it likely that the complaint which caused J-List to censor its graphics originated outside the credit companies. I say that because businesses like doing business - as long as it's legal - and it's unlikely they would pressure a client as a result of internal politics. There might be agitation from outside, however. An irate parent discovers that his child mailordered an adult J-List product and launches a crusade. He persuades some Moral Majority faction to threaten a boycott unless action is taken by the credit card company.

If J-List has been targeted by the same special interest groups that force programs off the air and cause eBay to restrict auctions, they won't stop at censorship. The B-game industry may be especially vulnerable to such attacks. The subject matter and potential audience can be used as weapons to win public sympathy. Unlike the porn industry, game distributors lack the funds and connections to fight back.

quote:
My question then still is, is it a different processing company for each site, that is Peach Princess, J-List and JastUSA despite the connection that we know to exist between them?
When you're waging a war, you attack on a single front. J-List may be the first, but they won't be the last. I tell myself I'm just being paranoid, but then I recall the words of a former employer, only the paranoid survive. It's a reminder that freedom can be threatened by a minority interest.
#6
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
It's not clear from your message whether the complaint originated from a credit card company or some intermediate processing firm. If it's the former, that would be more worrisome. It's one thing for J-List to switch service providers; it's another for them to find a replacement for say, Mastercard.(...)I think it likely that the complaint which caused J-List to censor its graphics originated outside the credit companies.


I fully agree, but all I have heard is credit card processing company. Is there one company that deals with the processing of any card, a middleman as it were that will contact say Mastercard, Discover, Visa, American Express for J-List that could be the problem here? That is what I thought credit card processing company meant, the middleman that processes the cards rather then the card companies themselves.

quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
An irate parent discovers that his child mailordered an adult J-List product and launches a crusade. He persuades some Moral Majority faction to threaten a boycott unless action is taken by the credit card company.

But where are the people in this world to tell the irate parent to shove it up their rears. If they had more control, if they [gasp] supervised their own children rather then told other people to do it for them, maybe that kid would not have ordered something that is objectionable to the parents, and if they do so what? They're kids, kids break the rules it's a fact of life, more parents should realize this and learn that so long as their kids are not breaking basic safety rules it doesn't really matter since the kids will be found out and learn punishment can at times come from rule breaking.

quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
If J-List has been targeted by the same special interest groups that force programs off the air and cause eBay to restrict auctions, they won't stop at censorship. The B-game industry may be especially vulnerable to such attacks. The subject matter and potential audience can be used as weapons to win public sympathy.

I still don't think it is this widespread, not yet anyway, and why attack this industry? How many people out there if you ask the average person on the street know of this industry? Yes that means lack of support but it also means it is not known so the best way to bury it is to keep your mouth shut and not draw attention to it, which will happen if you attack it since you will have sudden outcry's of suppression of freedom of speech catching media attention.

quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
When you're waging a war, you attack on a single front. J-List may be the first, but they won't be the last. I tell myself I'm just being paranoid, but then I recall the words of a former employer, only the paranoid survive. It's a reminder that freedom can be threatened by a minority interest.

I fully agree with the quote, and think it is the paranoid more then the pessimist that allows the optimistic to be optimistic.

However, I disagree with the idea of fighting one front war here because in this case you tip off your opponent to be armed and ready for your move.

Now the other sites might be able to, if I am right about the middleman aspect, find a new company before the attack and drop the current company from all three places at once.

I think if it is one processing company, then one sort of strafe attack would be more damaging since they could not simply say "look to our other site for some of our products".

However if you attack on all fronts at once, which you can do much easier here without the worry of having to send in reinforcements, you almost force the people to stick with you or move quickly and most will take the path of least resistance and stick with the middleman, credit card processing company in this case.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 05-31-2004).]

#7

No one else has any official word or rumors about this?

#8

The same topic is under discussion on the Comic Journal message board, but no one there knows what’s up, either. Soon J-List will be hiring an expert to add mosaics to their pictures, I guess.

#9

I am still hoping this is not going to last and it will be able to go back to the way it was at one time. You know all these sites should get together (even if it is not entirely practical) and form their own processing company if it is a middleman as I suspect, stick it to those telling them what to do and how they can do business.

#10
quote:
Originally posted by Jason4:
I find this whole thing very strange, because if one of these companies is a major carrier, like say, Visa, then it's pretty much hypocracy. I mean, there are TONS of adult sites that accept credit cards (such as Visa) as payment; be them for products such as vids, toys, etc. to sites that just sell access to views pics and movies. I have not heard of any other instance of this happening. (unless this is a test run of some sort)

Even though I think it is a middleman and not one of the companies themselves I can see one of them making a stink.

It does sound like hypocrisy doesn't it, since they will and undoubtedly do depend on the adult industry as part that makes them a lot of money, I mean the adult industry is a several billion dollar a year industry within the U.S. alone from what I understand.

Yet in their eyes it probably is not hypocrisy since in the case of Visa, they also sponsors all of the races that make up the Triple Crown but they probably also sponsor or co-sponsor several anti-gambling campgains that you would not hear about during the Triple Crown, or in Vegas.

I don't like it and I think it is hypocrisy, but it would not be the first time any card company double talked like that and caved into the pressure of a few noisy cardholders against an industry that nets them lots of money while also still supporting that industry.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 06-05-2004).]

#11

Hey! When I visited J-List’s store today I was pleased to see the censorship had been removed. Thanks to the staff for restoring the original pictures.

#12

I still want to know how long it took them to put up and take down all those censors.

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精神 の 神

#13

Hmmm… maybe I’m missing something, but it seems like artwork–and let’s face it, bishoujo images are simply graphic art–is supposed to be protected by something called the Constitution, and no person, or persons, have the authority to tell someone that they have to censor their artwork… at least in this country, as I understand it…

…or maybe I’m just idealistic

#14
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
Hmmm... maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like artwork--and let's face it, bishoujo images are simply graphic art--is supposed to be protected by something called the Constitution, and no person, or persons, have the authority to tell someone that they have to censor their artwork... at least in this country, as I understand it...

...or maybe I'm just idealistic [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

That's not the way it works in business. If you are using someone elses services, they can give you conditions where those services can be withdrawn. Noone is forcing Jlist to censor, but they may lose another companies services if they don't. Does that make any sense?

[This message has been edited by dco_chris (edited 06-17-2004).]

#15

Yaay!

#16

Ah, I see… economic blackmail, after a fashion. Well, maybe it’s closer to extorsion. Yes… I understand that what is happening is someone, presumably, is threatening to take their business away if their moral views aren’t complied with. But, in my view, that is enforcing censorship. I’d hate to see it go any farther than it apparently has, and I’d hope that J-List either sticks to their guns, or finds a new credit processor.

#17
quote:
Originally posted by dco_chris:
That's not the way it works in business. If you are using someone elses services, they can give you conditions where those services can be withdrawn.

I agree with Wolfson that it seems more like economic blackmail and it is indeed forcing censorship on something that maybe it is just one person, the head, of that other business who does not like such pictures and of course since he or she is in charge they know that they must be the right view for all people to embrace. Okay that was sarcastic, yet hopefully this will be the end of it and not just the first strike since J-List has gotten around that forced censorship.

It is my understanding of the law though that so long as it is a public business in the public domain and/or publically traded, which most credit card companies and processing companies are these days, they are bound to the Constitution if within the U.S. So they might hate those pictures but as a public company cannot force them to be removed without violating the First Amendment. Private institutions are slightly different but I don't think the processing company in such a public domain can be considered a private institution.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 06-21-2004).]

#18
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
It is my understanding of the law though that so long as it is a public business in the public domain and/or publically traded, which most credit card companies and processing companies are these days, they are bound to the Constitution if within the U.S. So they might hate those pictures but as a public company cannot force them to be removed without violating the First Amendment. Private institutions are slightly different but I don't think the processing company in such a public domain can be considered a private institution.

A business selling services does not have to sell to everyone. They can choose not to sell their services to whoever they want. It may be blackmail but the first amendment is not broken as Jlist is free to get those services from someone else. Worryingly this is not the first time I have heard of this happening. I was reading of another bank that is going to stop working with adult businesses. I can't find a link to where I read that though.

#19
quote:
Originally posted by dco_chris:
A business selling services does not have to sell to everyone. They can choose not to sell their services to whoever they want. It may be blackmail but the first amendment is not broken as Jlist is free to get those services from someone else. Worryingly this is not the first time I have heard of this happening. I was reading of another bank that is going to stop working with adult businesses. I can't find a link to where I read that though.

Sadly, it is true that, in America, businesses have always "reserved the right to refuse service to anyone." Hopefully, someday, our discrimination laws will extend far enough that we won't have to worry about whether or not our hobby involves pixelated nudity. Unfortunately, I may not live that long [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

#20

Yes but isn’t there a difference between, as Wolfson said “reserving the right to refuse service to anyone” and a business who you are paying for their services to later dictate to you the conditions under which you will run your company so they do the job you are already and have been paying them to perform? I thought that was a difference and within that difference came the line that lead to a violation of the First Amendment rights.

Yes within a contract the processing company had with J-List they could have built in something about not dealing with companies that have such pictures on their site but to change the tune later is a number of things including a possible breach of contract if it was not built in and the violation of First Amendment rights isn’t it?

I guess my question then is, can someone that I am paying to provide a service tell me how to run my business if I desire to continue to have the honor of paying them to provide the service? That is very different then refusing service is it not?

This nations, the United States’, paranoid fixation about anything that falls under the category of “adult” is getting very tiresome since it is so archaic and just gets more restrictive rather then more liberal as time passes.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 06-21-2004).]