I’ve read both posts pertaining to the matter, and I can’t say I understand. It is argued that the English patch would remove control over Key’s work because it alters it. How is this, if the game is sold unmodified? Further, do authors really expect to retain control over their work once it is in the consumer’s hands? We can delete files from the game installation if we want to. We can patch it ourselves. We can hack it if we want. How does not having an English patch change any of that?
I believe that in the end it’s the choice of the consumer to apply the patch or not, which would make it his/her responsibility. This argument seems like a lame cop-out.
In fact, you could argue that the patch doesn’t change anything in the work. It just translates it. Granted, translations are never perfect, but you know what I mean. In that light, I think it’s rather selfish of the author to be against a translation patch.
well benoit, like your topic stated, it says ETHICS, so any of your legal mumbo jumbo wouldn’t apply in this case. so lets just put away any “the consumer has the right to do whatever they want with the product” argument for now
please feel free to correct me if i am wrong, but my understanding after reading it is that the original authors (of kanon, i presume) does not authorize/endorse/encourage an unauthorized translation, and it seems to me that this fan translator is withholding his translation out of RESPECT for the japanese author and their creation?
however you may think the authors’s mindset being selfish, if it’s their stance (no matter what the reason is), i believe that you should respect them. if you really respect their creation, that is.
if i were in the fan translator’s shoes and i was doing a fan translation of a game i really love/respect/worship…if the original authors asked me to stop doing so for whatever reason, out of respect i would likely stop as well, since it’s the creators who asked
I see no moral issue with creating an unauthorized translation, aside from the money question (which ultimately boils down to ‘is fansubbing OK?’). I don’t need anyone’s permission to read a book. I consider this akin to people selling the service where they take a DVD you own, censor it, and give you an altered copy for you / your kids to watch.
I’m a greedy grubby bastard who wants his Kanon translation
That said, I can … respect the original creator’s decision. It is, after all, his translation. I do think he should have thought of this a long, long time ago.
I am tempted to think then wrong word was used for the topic. Should it have been legality , or was it meant to be ethics ?
Anyway, from what I know, Haeleth hasn’t approached Key yet, and I doubt Key knwos about the existence of the patch. Furthermore, haeleth’s opinion was caused by the existence of this Convention:
Again, i realy, really doubt that Key knows abotu the patch, but Haeleth is only placing the final release patch on hold because he is aware that people who pirate the game are going to beenfit the patch far more than those who bought the game, and secondly, he feels that he is in contravention of an actual international alw.
Oh, sure, fansubbers have been breaking it since way before then, but then again, we wouldn’t really know.
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I personally hope, though, in a very wierd sort of way, that this may lead to the official translation of Kanon, and an international release for it.
In theory if they modded the game without permission they couldn’t, atleast in the US (against the law to modofiy digitial items without consent). However, this has never been tried (as far as i know, atleast not successfully), probably because it flies in the face of several hundred years and then some from pre-US law that says once you buy an item, it’s yours to do with whatever the hell you want, as long as it doesn’t undermind the copyright holder’s rights (such as giving away copies of a free, making a counterfeits, passing the item off as your own, etc). Any modifications you do are within your own right to do so, but the company does not have to bear the responsibility. Thus when I got my Ranma manga autographed, its alters my book, but its within my right to do so, as long as i don’t try to resell it as something its not. If I wanted to re-edit every page in the book, i could do so, and i could even sell it on the after-market, as long as i was making sure to claim the edits to text only were my own and i didn’t start copying the pages to reprnt and sell multiple copies of it.
However, that’s not legal as far as the law is concerned, ie you can’t edit the information, in theory, without permission even for your own personal use. As I said this flies in the face of centuries of intellectual property law and has yet to have any serious challenges. I would expect the court to at the very least do some narrowing of the law considering the centuries of precident.
However, that said, most companies don’t care if you edit the software, as long as you own a copy and aren’t making it so that you can freely distribute copies to anyone (such as no-cd hacks).
However, finally, the point is that unless you advertise the fact you might have a hack to a piece of software, no one is likely to know (atleast with current technology).
No, the legalities are quite clear (though not many know about them). There was an international treaty signed by just about everybody a few years back called the Berne Convention that tuned a bunch of copyright-related stuff. Under the Berne Conventions translations are quite clearly protected/derivative works – creating an unauthorized translation is definitely illegal.
True, but as said, this treaty has yet to be challenged in many of the countries that signed it. Not every country holds treaties sgned over their own laws.
The ethics should be fairly clear, if an author asks you to stop and not distrubute it, then ethically you should., if you respect the author and he has come to you politely.
And this is why I hate the Internet culture. Ethics should work the opposite way: it’s not “If an author asks you to stop and not distribute it, then ethically you should, if you respect the author and he has come to you politely.” but “Until an author gives you authorization to alter and distribute his work, you’re NOT allowed to.”
Or are you telling it’s okay to tag someone’s car until he politely asks you to stop doing so?
The Berne convention’s article 8, does that apply to translations in general, or translations that generate revenue?
Personally, I don’t have any problem with the patch. It’s basically the same thing as having a Japanese speaking friend reading over your shoulder and telling you what it means. True, it’s a patch rather than a friend, but it’s essentially the same thing. Language isn’t (or shouldn’t be) copyrighted.
I don’t see tagging someone’s car on the same line. Why?
Tagging someone’s car causes damage to the car that is owned by somone else. It would be the same as if I came to your house and changes some files on your harddrive (ignoring for the moment the fact i’d be breaking & entering most likely).
However, this isn’t like tagging someone’s car because I am at most tagging my own car, to use the same anaology, because i own that car. IE, if i make en edit, its to my own item, not anyone else’s and its not ilelgal to tag your own car. If i spread the patch out, its like i’m giving people the knowhow and tools to tag their own car, but no their neighbors.
If they install a translation on someone else’s computer without permission, then yes, its tagging.
While I am not surprised is that visual novels have already reached the English market, since the last decade, I’m surprised Kanon ahsn’t. Kanon was something of a hit in its time, and its coverage in Megatokyo, a single mention in PC GAMER US, and other things, all make me wodner why no one actually did a full fan translation for the game.
Of course, if Haeleth can actually geta way with getting Key to be itnerested in releasing Kanon on an international scale, than it’d be good. But if not…
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It’s an irony to think that, even though we live in an age of globalization, there are still people who cannot accept it, as new laws are broken. While p2p technology is one thing, spreading a license afterwards is another, and the latter is far more beneficial.
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“Fee flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny.”
-Commissioner Pravin Lal, the Declaration of Human Rights, Datalinks, Sid Meie’rs Alpha Centauri.
Translating a game to distribute it causes moral damage, since you’re giving to someone the (altered) work of someone’s else without permission.
But it’s not your item, it’s the author’s item.
I’m talking about the principle, not the exact action. If you want a more accurate image, it’s like taking a picture someone drew, tag it without his permission then spread it as his art. If I paint a red car and distribute that picture, it’s because I want people to see my art expressed by that red car. If you’re painting the car in green without my permission and distribute it as being my art, I have a right to be angry IMO and your action was unrespectful.
It’s all about respect, a notion the Internet culture is killing more and more.
This is a completely stupid quote, completely taken out of context. Other people’s literary writings are NOT information. They are their work and they have a right to control how they want it to be widespread.
… Moral damage? You could say it causes moral damage if I tell someone that I played Kanon and it sucked.
Or what if I tell someone the plot of Kanon and I get some of the details wrong? Gasp, I have distributed an altered work!
Obviously these are not quite the same thing as releasing a fan translation. But NEITHER is releasing a fan translation the same as spray-painting someone’s car, and that should be incredibly obvious to you. If I paint your car without permission, your original car has been altered and no longer exists. That’s a world of difference from creating a fan translation, which does not actively harm the original.
That doesn’t mean that fan translations are automatically ethical and right, it just means you can’t possibly compare those two things. By making such a huge leap and trying to compare things that are in no way similar, you open yourself up to people coming up with all kinds of other comparisons which are much MORE logically similar.
You can make a clear case that distributing a fan translation is a copyright violation because if the text in the translation IS an actual translation, the contents of the translation are still the property of the original owner. On the other hand, distributing a script of text that is NOT a translation of the original but can be read and used by the game to present a totally different experience would fall under “modifying your own copy” and not a copyright violation. If someone distributes a parody script that makes up a plot to go with the pictures…
Notice that in my example no distribution was being done. I was solely talking about the actual translation, because that’s what you compared to tagging a car.
That act changes the picture. A translated game still has the same contents as the original game, only in a different language.
If i spread the patch out, its like i’m giving people the knowhow and tools to tag their own car, but no their neighbors.