At one of the events they were at, I recall.
Very exciting news. They should release Higurashi on Christmas. 
I’m really starting to see MangaGamer as the better company. At first, I thought they were going to die out quickly like Hirameki did, but that was until I saw their translations improve and the games they are releasing. I don’t really see JAST licensing something as expensive as Shuffle! in the future. Unless JAST starts releasing games much faster with better translations and no censorship (no more Family Project!), I’m going to start considering them the weaker company. All JAST has that MG doesn’t is retail copies, which is a big thing to me, but not big enough to keep me liking them more.
I am still a little pissed that MG supposedly discriminated against women at cons though…
MG’s incompetence shows at times, and they have problems communicating with their fans, but they’re hardly mean-spirited. I wouldn’t hold the con incident against them.
Regarding B173’s comment:
Link: http://novelnews.net/2009/07/07/mangaga … expo-2009/
All in all, JAST and Mangagamer’s strengths and weaknesses reflect their respective backgrounds. JAST, as an English-based company, knows the English market well, generally has pretty good translations, and also knows how to market their games effectively. Mangagamer, as a company with very strong Japanese ties (though they’re “officially” based in the Netherlands) uses those ties with developers to bring over great games, though the translations are occasionally questionable (though good lately), and their understanding of the market + marketing is rather poor. I’d say that they need to work on the last point if they’re to start turning a profit.
While I can’t blame them for being cautious since it was around the time of the RapeLay incident, I still can’t condone them discriminating against who gets to see their games. There is no excuse for that. I still like them better than JAST though. (at least, at the moment)
It’s true that MG was looking like they were going to die when they first started, but they are still alive as I type this. Ever since KiraKira and Shuffle were released, I started to see more people noticing them. I’m sure Shuffle is selling really well. (it’s been on the top selling charts for a while)
I think their behavior at the con was decidedly Japanese. Call it my own unsubstantiated bias if you will, but I think such actions would’ve been acceptable in Japan. Unfortunately for MG, it’s not acceptable in the US–the political and social climate is completely different, and they failed to comprehend that. That’s why I’ve labeled the incident “incompetence” and not “mean-spirited”. It was a misunderstanding arising from a difference in culture. Nonetheless, it is MG’s job as a localization company to understand their target market. The sooner they embrace that point, the better.
While I’m not an expert on Japanese politics and laws, I’m still pretty sure they have laws against discrimination due to gender. At least I don’t think they will do this again after the criticism they got for it online and the availability of non-ero titles like Higurashi. It wouldn’t have affected me since I’m male, but I would have felt terrible to see someone turned away due to gender.
have anyone actually complained about been turned away from the MG booth?, if yes, I would have expected this female eroge fan or someone who have witnessed the incident to have left a comment about the incident here or some other VN forum. So far I’ve only seen rumors from people who are not sure that it did happen.
any way considering the time at which that the incident toke place (if it did happen), I’d say it was due to fear and not due to being gender biased (I am not an MG staff, so don’t take my word for it). Although why would MG staff assume that every feminist is a women is beyond me. Any way, I wander how will a woman feel if she knew that the sight of her face brought fear to man heart :lol: :lol:
back to topic. Do any of you guys actually select a VN over another VN and decide not to get a VN just because you got the other VN? So you won’t buy Shuffle because Family Project came out? The way I see it is, there is no real competition between MG and JAST, I will end up getting their VNs any want (even if I select to get one title later).
I do. Let me show you by example.
This October I got the following:
- Full Metal Daemon Muramasa
- Comyu
- Osananajimi wa Daitouryou
- Itsutsugo
- Schrodinger no Tobira
I did not get:
- Mashiroiro Symphony
- Skyprythem
- Kiss x Maou x Darjeeling
If I didn’t get the former titles, or as many of the former titles, chances are I would have gotten some or all of the latter titles.
I’m not explicitly saying I won’t get the latter titles later (I may get Mashiroiro at a later date) BUT I am most likely to get a game on its release if I get it at all. So yeah, effectively, I do look at two games and pick one of them + decide that I may not get the other.
Yes, it did happen. I posted a link, on this forum, to a thread of customer complaints on the Anime Expo forum. You’re welcome to dig it up if you’d like. I suggest the search terms “Mangagamer” and “discrimination”.
As for the reason, you can call it “fear”, “caution”, or whatever word you like. I call it “incompetence”. In any case, I didn’t really mean to dredge this back up. It’s really in all our best interests that that we forget about it and move on; MG has been made aware of the problem and I’m sure it won’t happen again.
ahh, found it. Thanks for that.
so the whole fuss is about a freebie not been given but otherwise everything else (including entry to the booth) was given?! In that case, I’ve experienced “discrimination” many times in my life without even realizing it. Any way, different people get stuck at different things, such an incident wouldn’t have even registered in my mind (honestly, it wouldn’t). Any way, thanks for pointing it out, I’ll drop the subject as well.
@ Lancer-X: those are many titles that you have listed, but they are Japanese eroge, aren’t they? They first come with a higher price tag, and they do release many of them in the same month ( 1 of the things in my opinion that contribute to the weakens of the market* ). So it is understandable if you are selective when it comes to the Japanese titles (who wouldn’t?). In the case of the western market, I think that if we get 2 or more titles released in the same month, that month can be considered a luck month :mrgreen: .
- what I mean by that, you have too many products for the same customer base. So you endup with many “make believe” titles with a price tag on them that endup eating market share from the few “real” titles.
I totally disagree with you. I absolutely, completely and utterly disagree with you. In fact, I disagree with you so much it is difficult to put into words how wrong I feel your opinion is in this particular matter. But I’m going to try anyway.
Having lots and lots of eroges spread out ensures a broad and diverse market. The effect is that no eroges make a lot of money. This is GOOD. This means that less money is spent MAKING the eroges. The idea is that you ensure that the market isn’t dominated by a few players, and that it is relatively easy to ‘break into’ - a doujin eroge group can become a successful eroge company without really changing their business or staffing structure all that much; they just need more money. Because the risks are lower, there is more incentive to creatively experiment with the medium; this is why you won’t get a mainstream western PC game (an example of a market dominated by AAA titles; and I’m talking about games that get shelf space at popular retailers, not the ESD (electronic software distribution) market which is closer to the eroge market =p) that is like, for example, Liar-soft’s Forest. In fact, Liar-soft could never exist unless they started up around the birth of the PC games market, because the only people allowed to experiment are established players who became established because they got in early when the market was far more diverse than it is now.
If we assume an eroge playing demographic that will spend X dollars on eroge each month, the main difference is that the X number of dollars gets split up between a number of companies. Sure, some get more than others- the titles that sell 50,000 or 100,000 copies (the latter being rather rare) naturally do much better, but on the whole, anything that does okay sells about 10,000 copies, which pays off production costs nicely as well as giving the company behind it more seed money to make better things. If then number of total eroges released were reduced, sure, they’d be better, but the point is that there would be less variety. You’d probably get all the AliceSoft, Key, Leaf, Nitroplus, Atelier Kaguya, AUGUST and Akabeesoft2 games you want (those companies making a lot more money because the “make believe” titles, as you called them, not stealing the sales) but you wouldn’t get much else! THAT is when the eroge market will become unsustainable, and it’ll start to go the direction of the mainstream PC games market, which itself has begun to diversify into ESD after realising how close it came to DYING.
If you’re a fan of, let’s say, minori, let me assure you that they would be the first against the wall in your proposed model. They’re too careless when it comes to money and their titles don’t sell all that well - you’ll get to watch Atelier Kaguya nuke them into oblivion with fifty oppai games.
which is where I am having a problem, unlike the big 3D market, the eroge itself will not change, you will still be able to make good quality but cheap eroge (Narcissu comes to mind). But if you do spend more in making an eroge, you should be able to make the very same eroge “larger” by adding CG, music and script to it.
never thought about it this way, thanks for pointing it out. I was seeing it as, the larger titles might have been able to attract more paying customers if those customers haven’t spent too much on “make believe” tiles. But if the “make believe” titles are not selling that well, well I guess they are just adding verity (girls) to the market.
:lol: :lol: for some reason, imagining minori being pined against the wall before a shooting squad made me laugh, thanks for that.
yes, you have many titles with the only different between them and the previous title is that “it have a new girl in it”. The eroge market is a small market and I don’t see it growing bigger anytime soon. So I would rather have 10 oppai titles + 1 minori title, then have 50 oppai titles + 1 minori title. minori title will have a better chance of selling if it didn’t have many “make believe” titles (“it have a new girl” titles) to compete against. (that is how I was seeing it :oops: )
but you do make a good point and I’d rather not see the equivalent of EA in the eroge market.
Agreed. I kept pushing back playing the games because of the graphics, then decided one day to do so, at first with reluctance because of the graphics. Then… Then, I got used to them to the point I wasn’t able to play the PS2 version because the characters looked so different, graphic-wise.
Ryukishi’s art has its charm. It’s just a matter to get pass your first impressions.
As to the discrimination, the best comparison I have seen is this
If a store has 100 coupons for panties to try to get people in that store, the person giving out those coupons will surely want all 100 to end up in female hands.
This is very likely the attitude that MangaGamer had with giving out demos (which they had a limited number of) at AX, they wanted to give the demo discs to those who they thought would be most likely to buy their games.
You don’t wear MangaGamer demos. That’s the difference. Either way, I don’t think a store would be able to deny someone from a panties coupon, even if the person in question is male. They would WANT the customers to be female, but they legally wouldn’t be able to deny a man from getting free panties. 
You’re deliberately ignoring his point. At the time of the convention, MangaGamer was still in mindset that they were selling porn games to audience that’s pretty much similar to one in Japan.
The demos also included code to get one game out of two game purchase free, and they wouldn’t want any possible sales to go to waste, as there are very few girls in Japan that buy visual novels. As far as they know, girl could just look at demos and decide that she isn’t interested in porn games.
Sure, MG was pretty idiotic with this, but they did it because they didn’t understand the market, not because they hate women. Also, didn’t they distribute them to everybody in last day since it was clear that there’d be enough?
… so, you think it’s reasonable to discriminate against transvestites, men who like to wear women’s panties in the privacy of their own home, and men who are shopping for their girlfriends? 
Seriously. Unless the guy is laughing his ass off going “FREE PANTIES THIS IS THE FUNNIEST THING EVER”, why turn away an interested customer based on your own prejudices and preconceptions? Being nice to the unusual customers may win you a more loyal userbase, especially if they’ve been badly treated elsewhere, and circulate the knowledge among the subculture that this particular shop won’t give men shit for buying lacy things.
Customers really really hate being prejudged by idiot staff. A recurring theme in communities complaining about terrible service in shops is fat girls being chased out of stores for thin people, when they were either with thin friends who were shopping or trying to buy something for a thinner person.
Unfortunately, a lot of people do think that’s okay. Discrimination like that happens whether it’s legal or not. :?
Alright, now that we have all this rampant speculation going on, I might as well link the relevant posts…
Post 1: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6339#p92131
Post 2 (linked in Post 1): viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6339&start=25#p92252
Notably:
Their (admittedly vague) response suggests that limited availability of bonus DVDs was not the issue. The incident was apparently a result of miscommunication between higher-ups and those on the floor, a miscommunication that was likely indirectly tied to the Rapelay scare.
In my humble opinion, MG royally screwed up with the handout ordeal. If you change female to black and male to white, you’d have justified grounds for an immediate lawsuit. Truth is they have justified grounds for an immediate lawsuit anyways: from a legal standpoint sexism and just as abhorrent as racism. Ignorance is really no excuse.
Solution is relatively simple: Come out in the open, admit they were wrong, educate their people, and take strong measures to ensure the ignorance never happens again. Companies make mistakes… but if they learn from them, repent, and not repeat - all is good in the world.