Project Ganymede

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#1

Hey everyone, I’ve hinted about it in the past, but I am presently engaging in a project to make a doujin VN. I’ve codenamed it Project Ganymede until sufficient work and visual elements can be created to offer a little bit of hype. The VN itself is inspired partially by the theme and environment of the Type-Moon games, but I’m taking it in my own direction with my own background. The similarities between Kinoko Nasu and myself end at the basic themes and certain structures.

At the moment I’ve just left the brainstorming stage and am constructing a 3 route scenario. Each route will have approximately 2-3 endings excluding the bad endings. It’s an ongoing project that I’m working on, and I’ll probably end up going to one of those development schools at night when I’m in Japan to further refine my writing skills until I have a substantial and workable scenario.

Anyway my main problem is this, I’m going to need an artist. While I’m competent in writing this and even putting it into something like NScripter, what I can’t do is create the BGM and Art to match with the story. Does anyone have any advice on how I could potentially get into a ??? that I could potentially present my work to and get an artist to sign on. I’m definitely in need of a decent character designer/artist. I’m also quite serious about this project, what I don’t want it to end up is some crappy fan fiction on some shitty website somewhere. Also, I don’t really care about how well it sells, I’ll be more than satisfied if I could get this project off the ground and make it available for people to play and see for themselves. The pie in the sky dream would be to have a comiket booth and sell it for cheap to get as many people to play it as possible.

While this project is far from complete I’ve already got plans for sequels in the same universe as well.

So any advice on how I can take this further than simple writing would be quite helpful, I once again re-iterate this won’t be some shitty fujoshi fanfic that will end up on some repository site, my work is an original one.

P.S.: I’m also aware that writers are the lowest on the proverbial food chain when it comes to things like VNs, so I got my work cut out for me. It’s not like I have friends like Takeuchi Takashi to help me out with this project.

#2

Rule #1: If you can’t do everything by yourself, you need to spend money to make something good.

Rule #2: No one works for free… usually…

That said… you can find affordable artists who are starving for commission services at these locations:

http://www.deviantart.com

http://www.conceptart.org

Freelance musical talent hang around here:

http://www.vgmusic.com

http://www.ocremix.org

Some help when finding commission talent:

#1: Have as much of the project that you can finish on your own, already finished. Substitute original artwork with artwork you can rip from other sources (for example b-game graphic rips). Substitute music with MIDI or MP3 files (anime or movie soundtracks). Have these substitutes as close to what you’d like the original commissions to be, as much as possible. People are more receptive to something that’s nearly finished and needs polishing, than something that’s not even started on and needs construction. Also, if they REALLY like what you’ve done, and believe in the project as much as you do, you’d be surprised how cheap and/or willing they are.

#2: Commission artists/musicians want to see whatever their working on, get released. This is why having a 50% complete project, is far more important to them than a 0% complete project. They wanna see their work released, because it lets them use that as something on their resume. Also, as mentioned before, the better quality your concept, the more they wanna work on it, the lower you can negotiate their prices. There have been times when people worked with me for free, simply because they wanted to be apart of it. That is to say: have their name in the credits. I can’t begin to tell you how many times I’ve worked with commissioned talent, and been told that every project they’ve worked on before, never got completed. Showing 'em something almost finished really gets 'em excited.

#3: Never ask people to work for free, unless they offer to work for free. Ask what they charge for their work, and see if you can afford it. If you can’t afford it, be honest. Some people are willing to work for less than you’d imagine… but they still wanna get paid. They might not use the money for food and rent - but ink pens, drawing paper, Watcoms, high quality scanners, art software, and illustration books for referencing aren’t cheap.

#4: Ask a lot of people at once (because you WILL be turned down and/or can’t afford quite a number), but try to make each email personal towards the person you’re trying to commission. Listen and/or view what they’ve worked on. Comment on why you like their style. Don’t just say “it looks/sounds good.” Honestly mention what you find attractive. I’m not saying you should suck up to them - but at least express that you honestly LIKE their work. For example if someone draws like Amano, comment that they draw like Amano and why you like Amano’s style. If her music mimics John Williams, ask if she’s loves John Williams music, and say why you like John Williams.

#5: Just because someone says no, does not mean you shouldn’t thank them for their time. Everyone is busy, and if they answered your request, they were honestly interested and took a moment to consider it. Being civil and professional, builds bridges. One time I finished a project, and someone I asked commission services from who turned it down, wrote back and confessed his slight jealousy for not joining aboard. When I made a second project, he jumped on the truck as soon as I asked… and at budget prices.

#6: I doubt it needs to be said, but just in case: write your requests in a professional and business like manner. Spelling and grammar go a long way.

#7: A tip about music: there’s a LOT (and I mean a lot) of Folk, Classical, and Traditional music out there, that’s on public domain… that is to say: ROYALTY FREE. Don’t be afraid to tap the Great Composers or cultural songs. Look for performances from the 1950’s and whatnot. Orchestral music of Bach in the early 1900’s ain’t any different from those being performed today. Check out this site: http://www.classiccat.net

Good luck. :slight_smile:

#3

Heck, all you have to do is look at Crescendo (my favorite soundtrack out of the games I have) to see the truth of this.

#4

go play G-Senjou no Maou.
If you loved Crescendo’s soundtrack, G-Senjou no Maou’s will give you a heart attack. Apart from the three vocal pieces (OP, credits and insert song) and remixes of the above, the soundtrack is made up of awesome remixed classical pieces.

#5

Well Deviant Art and conceptart are good starting points, but both seem too western for my tastes. What about Japanese doujin circles? These guys are usually making games more so for their personal hobby rather than making a profit. Of course I’m not suggesting people work with me for free, but I’m simply saying finding the right artist might be easier if I look to the doujin circles, or even JOIN one. Such partnerships could make my life a lot easier than going about it the commission way, not to mention I’ll have people of similar mindset working with me to make the project a reality.

All I’m saying is, I don’t see why I have to limit myself to western artists when both culturally and style wise, the kinds of people who could stand to be most interested, and most understanding of my project will surely be from the doujin circles rather than the latest and greatest marvel style comic book artist. My targets aren’t just people like you guys at Otakusim, I’m going to hit 2channel and the Japanese otaku with this. So having Japanese otaku themselves, namely people who are interested in forming/allowing me to join a doujin group lead to much greater chances for success for me.

Kinoko Nasu, wrote novels in his spare time and was lucky enough to have someone like Takeuchi Takashi as his best friend in High School. The two of them collaborated on making his stories into visual novels. Whatever perceived shortcomings to Takeuchi’s art were made up for by Nasu’s writing which kept people interested. It was strictly a 2 man operation (with some help). Things only skyrocketed quality wise from there with FSN and all the licensing they’re getting for animes etc. I’d rather form that kind of partnership than act like the foreboding capitalist who has an idea and has to get people completely unassociated with the development process to make art for it.

#6

I’ve had a bit of personal experience in this area, and I can testify that a) these relationships don’t form overnight, b) they don’t usually form if you’re not committed to communicating extensively in Japanese, and c) money and the professionalism associated with it talk to Japanese people (including doujinka) very well.

If you’re willing to spend several years cultivating friendships with a team of Japanese doujin creators, more power to you. Otherwise, paying them for their work at market rates is likely going to be the best (or only) option available to you for a project of the scope it sounds like you’re proposing.

Also, everything Narg said ++.

#7

I am committed to communicating in Japanese though. Since I will be living in Japan in a year or 2 anyway, how can I live there if I can’t communicate in Japanese? So I’m very serious about communicating on that level. As for working with doujinka, what kind of rates are we looking at for them? I just don’t have the confidence in the DA community which to me is a repository for art rather than a serious place to look for it to find someone actually willing to help me make a game (with sufficient renumeration of course) on the scale of Fate/Stay Night. That is how far I’m going with this, if it has to take me 10 years, I’ll do it. This is my life’s work.

#8

As someone who has tried to work with Japanese doujin groups in the past, I’ll let you in on some saddening news: if they want you, they’ll let you know. Typically you can’t hire a Japanese doujin group, unless you are seeking to employ all of them under a professional contract. Though it’s a hobby for them, many are seeking employment in the industry. Japanese doujin groups are ordinarily formed from a group of friends who have known each other for years. They don’t take kindly to letting strangers in their group. Doujin groups are almost like a family unto themselves.

Secondly, doujin groups are made of rather eccentric people at times. French Bread for example, has an intense dislike for English speakers. According to some transcripts they’ve posted on 2chan, they openly turned down legit attempts to import Battle Ragnarok Offline (I assume by iRO). They also answer English emails to them, with some derogatory remarks (as seen in RBO). I’m not saying it impossible: I’m just pointing out that it’s incredibly difficult. You’re better off creating your own doujin group, rather than joining one. Hell… you might have a better chance of joining CAPCOM or Konami. I’m not being sarcastic: it’s the honest truth. Also remember than when you’re hitting 2chan, you’re a gaijin. I don’t want to turn this into a “Japanese racism” issue, so I will IGNORE AND NOT RESPOND to any comment on it. I will simply state that it can be an issue. Some of the most professional people can act immature. Nuff said.

Lastly: you greatly under estimate the potential of your Western counterparts. There is a massive amount of untapped potential in Europe and North America. In my personal opinion, most Japanese doujin circles suffer from creative lethargy, because the most promising talent is quickly tapped out by professional talent seekers. Ultimately the choice is yours of course, I’m merely giving you my two cents on the matter. Foreigners breaking into the Japanese market is far more difficult, than Japanese breaking into foreign markets.

EDIT
Whoa… two posts before I got mine finished typing. :slight_smile:

I see you’re willing to spend real money on this endeavor - which is good. But if you’re spending major cash and hoping to break into a foreign market, be aware that you’re going to need to fill out some major paperwork with the authorities. Fluent as I am with Japanese, their legal mumbo jumbo leaves me confused ¬ñ hell… my own native country’s legal mumbo jumbo leaves me confused. You’ll need a lawyer. :stuck_out_tongue:

Next off: as I understand it, FATE had a budget in the tens of thousands. It was not a doujin project, and had investors involved. Be aware of that.

EDIT 2
Just one last note… There’s a lot of talent on the DA community if you look deep enough. Some of the best artists I’ve ever worked with, are active there. As proof, here are some conceptual designs from a project I worked on, commissioned by individuals on DA. Don’t bother looking for a finished version of it. Project died in dev hell some time ago. Quite a pity too, considering how much I spend on it (well over $100K). Meh… what are dreams if you don’t purse them, eh?

#9

Well yes, JOINING one is probably something I would never want in the first place. But forming one is another story right? Are you saying that all available freelancer rag-tag doujin artists are going to refuse forming a circle with a foreigner? Once again, if I do engage in a dialogue with these people I won’t even be using English. As for presenting it to the undoubtedly picky and hard to please Japanese fans, the scenario writer (me) can always end up being unknown. I mean I’ve seen credits for scenario writers before, they all look like forum aliases. If the identity of the scenario writer is a secret, people playing the game will never know a foreigner wrote it and will either praise or jeer the title for what it is.

Another thought that came to me is that Korea, China and Taiwan have recently had a lot of animation outsourced to them by Japan etc. Apparently they got tons of technical skills, just not so much in the way of project management and creation. I could potentially look to China or Taiwan for my artists and ultimately dig up a way cheaper commission than anything they charge in the west. Not to mention municipal governments in China, as well as the National Broadcasting Committee pours millions US into developing “animation zones”, or industrial parks dedicated to anime/manga/related ventures. This may be the solution to my problem. With a proper alias on my part, I could anonymously release the work to Japanese and English audiences and everyone will be none the wiser.

#10

Well I’m just giving you some REALLY brief pointers from my own experience. What I mention is not the 100% final end result. It is only a few tidbits from situations I’ve encountered. Ten long years of them, where I’ve made some great achievements, but far more failures. :frowning:

I’m not saying you won’t be successful - and I truly hope you become successful. I hope you become the greatest. I truly do.

It seems you have a goal and plan already in mind, so I’ll just leave off at that. I’ve given as much insight as I reasonably could on a forum format. In a situation like this, I’d rather be talking on the phone or one-on-one, as its more conductive and a better communication method on such a topic… but I’ve got too many things on my own plate to worry about, than giving away all my secrets to a potential rival. :wink:

Though I might disagree from a working standpoint, I am completely with you from a spiritual backing. Indeed maybe I’m a failure because I’m stubborn and too hard set in my ways. Go with what you believe in, and don’t let Narg sour your dreams. I’m rooting for ya. 8)

#11

If you want to worry about rivals, I suggest you worry about folks like Type-Moon and Key, because they’re already established and making millions. Titles that we release, if we release them are ultimately small fry compared to them.

The reason I suggested doujin groups in the first place, was becuase the very concept of a doujin group seemed to make sense with what I’m trying to do. Doujin groups usually operate on a loss if I’m not mistaken. I’m more concerned with making this game rather than making money off of it. If I had an artist I could make text and dream into a reality and when people share that dream, I’ve already profited enough. My potential day job as a financial analyst is always waiting for me even if I end up making negative profits from my work. Ultimately it’s my opinion that art is what makes or breaks a game. I mean if I had the backing of a corporate group like Nitro+ it would be a dream come true, but it’s just that, a dream. I figured realistically, If I can just make the game, that will be more than enough to satiate my desires and let me feel I’ve accomplished something.

I just figured the scope of it all is not something western artists can handle much less understand. They usually concern themselves with making wallpapers, concept art, web comics and so on. This is a full blown VN, though I can’t expect to see those crazy energy slashing scenes and so on from FSN, I’m hoping to at least put out something on the level of Tsukihime and doing that I think requires commitment and involvement in the development process and I just have doubts about how well a western artist would handle that, especially since we’re not just taking things like sci-fi and fantasy as an element, but also ero scenes. Given how on average most western audiences have a black and white view when it comes to this, I find it very difficult to win someone over. There’s people who’ve seen Da Capo and then go and say “I CANT BELIEVE ITS HENTAI” and treat it as an unfortunate aspect to it.

As an example, there is a scene in Project Ganymede where the character engages in a battle on top of and inside an arcology, as my plot is predominantly set in 20XX during a time where Japan has adopted a variety of high end construction projects to deal with the general lack of real estate. Now I’m sure you know, that an arcology is a gigantic structure and a battle taking place on it, much less in it is something rather epic, to shift from something like that, to an a later point in the game where an ero scene takes place, I just don’t think western artists can make such a leap. You either have one or the other, not both. While Japanese artists could understand that better.

But… I suppose you guys have a point, the amount of connections, money etc required for me to pull off the project would probably require me to be some kinda mega rich guy with a few million to piss away so I can have a production like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ws4v_Zo … re=related. Hell, this artist essentially has exactly the style I’m looking for.

#12

I was joking. :stuck_out_tongue:

In any case, I’ve never had any intention - even in my wildest dreams - to ever compete against Japanese eroge companies. My ambitions are elsewhere and closer to home. :slight_smile:

Only to recover their losses after achieving a success. It is true there are doujin groups that spend more than they earn back, but the vast majority seek to earn profit: else why even sell them to begin with? Just give them away for free. CLAMP, Peach-Pit, French Bread, Type-Moon, etc ¬ñ all of them sought a profit margin so they could keep producing more works. They want to make their hobby a job. Doujin groups that operate on a loss, are doujin groups that vanish and die after releasing a title. That’s just the reality of life.

Then you need to find an artist with the same intentions as you. However you must ask yourself this: What do YOU offer him? If you want something from someone, what does he get in return? Money obviously is the easiest compensation, but it does not have to be the only one. If you look at a doujin group, notice how the people aid each other. One person might be the artist, but the other person is the programmer, and a third has business experience/contacts to find markets. People also cross pollinate. All the girls in CLAMP and Peach-Pit can draw… that’s because all the girls in CLAMP and Peach-Pit have their own ideas and help each other realize them.

Not that I’m saying you’re like this (I only wish to point out something), but what bothers me about “I’m a writer” people, is how they think only they have a concept. The artist has a concept. The musician has a concept. You know what they can offer you, to make your dream a reality. But what can YOU offer to make their dreams a reality? They don’t need a writer or conceptual directory, because they’ve already written what they need. He wants his b-game released too. Maybe the artist can’t program but you can. Therefore he’ll produce your game, if you’ll produce his. Sometimes you’ll have to make his, before you make yours. But you get what you want in the end, and he gets what he wants.

Not necessarily. The original Tsukihime had not so great art and terrible typos out the ying-yang (Hypno Hisui for example). There are many other factors that are more important, but going at length about them would take more time that I have to explain… especially in forum format.

You don’t need the backing of a corporation to achieve what you desire. I’ve been apart of projects, where we’ve created working demos of multimedia that look exuberantly expensive, but only cost peanuts. It’s all about managing your resources, pushing the limits creatively, and busting your ass hardcore. I have a friend who recreated Street Fighter 2 from scratch on a $10000 budget (incidentally he works in a financial role for CAPCOM now).

Then you are not so different from me, as I’m engaged in a similar venture of my own with these same ideals.

DO NOT think like that. You can make it happen. The only reason why it seems expensive, is because you’re making too expensive. Creating a professional eroge is not a multimillion dollar affair. It costs $80000 to create an anime episode in Japan, and eroge are FAR less expensive than this (fewer people and less equipment). I’m doing it on a 10K string budget, and so far only spent a fifth of that in commission services.

Again I stress that you look at domestic artists and musicians for your project. You are making it more complex that it needs to be; and therefore more expensive. Please consider what I am telling you. Narg has walked the path you want, and though I’ve fallen and stumbled, I’d rather not see someone else get as bruised if I can help it.

And for those wondering, Saint Valentinus is still moving along, though I can’t reveal anything more than I already have. Still too early. :slight_smile:

#13

… I’m sure you just wrote that without thinking, but seriously, look at how that sounds. Do you honestly think there are no professional artists in the western world?

Yes, the majority of people on deviantart are kids and students, looking to do one or two commissions for $25 each. There are also fulltime professionals lurking there, and if you post a job of the proper specs, you will get applications from both. conceptart leans a little more towards the professional, there are various art studios that advertise in the appropriate places, and if nothing else you could probably troll art colleges to hire graduates for fulltime work.

Suggesting that westerners are incapable of drawing more than one picture is, well, racist. :slight_smile:

(For that matter, there are non-Westerners on deviantart. I’ve hired people from the Phillipines, Russia, South Korea…)

#14

You mean you didn’t do the art for your games?
Also, It’s not so much whether they’re looking to be pro or not, but whether their morals and values would allow them to jump on board an eroge project. Some people just don’t swing that way, they’re looking to have tasteful portfolios so they can get jobs with companies and do something a little more official. An ero-scene is just one big stain on them I think. There’s definitely a different attitude towards these things here, as opposed to Japan where you can just walk into Laox and buy one of these games right out in the open. Thats why I came to such a conclusion.

This is a purely hypothetical question, but lets say that a foreign investor wishes to buy out one of those eroge companies in Japan. Would that be largely impossible because the industry wouldn’t want to sell to foreigners?

#15

Depends on which game. I’ve only made one game so far that I had any budget for, and I haven’t spent anywhere near narg’s $10K on it, I’m a cheapskate. :slight_smile: Some things I do myself. The more recent the game, the more money was spent on it, generally, because I started from nowhere and bootstrapped up. I’m excessively careful about spending, and do as much as possible with as little as possible - and am slowly building up capital to be able to do whatever I want, as well as provide for my old age! :slight_smile:

It’s true that some artists will look down their nose at eroge, but that’s probably true anywhere. Some will refuse to draw certain things, others will insist on using a pseudonym, others will charge you a lot more for ero than they would for non-ero, either because they think it’s sinful or because they think it’ll make you money so you can afford it.

Anyway, if you can find a good business negotiator in Japan willing to help bridge the gap between western money and jp doujin companies, let me know, I have evil schemes.

#16

I’m cheap too! I just don’t have a 401K plan and will be working at Taco Bell as senior citizen, exclaiming that I’d PAY twins to share the same Nacho Bell Grande. That be so yummy. :stuck_out_tongue:

Heh… don’t rule out the Westerner just yet. There’s a ton of H-artists out there: Hentai Foundary is just one place they gather. And DA has its share of 'em as well.

Beyond the scope of anything I could give advice on. Never gone that far… nor do I ever think I would. Its not impossible, just very intensive and time consuming. Lots of hoops to jump through and all that. Peter is obvious proof around here, of what can be achieved by eroge crazed foreigners in Japan… but I’m sure he got there after tremendous sweat and sacrifice. Most likely a story he doesn’t tell people unless he’s close friends with them… although an interesting tale it would be. I hear he kinda embellishes the story: something that involves Godzilla, a Shinto Princess, armies of ninja pirate warriors, a magical katana that sings JPOP, him running around naked from time to time, and the defeat of the immortal invincible Chuck Norris. Everyone involved is ALWAYS at least 18 years of age. :wink:

Japanese visas ordinance claims:

Obviously, there’s a lot of things not being mentioned there. Again: you’ll want to hire a legal adviser to explain it all to you - and it won’t be explained in a single day.

#17

I think I may ultimately be able to find something to work with here. Biggest shame with all this is that the Japanese market is largely closed to me due to legal (Wtf?) issues based on what you guys tell me. How hard can it be to sell hard copies at Comiket? The problem with the western market is that the Xbox360 fratboys are too busy playing Gears of War that no one would play a game like mine even if it was free.

But assuming my story is actually good, I could potentially have figi and anime based on my game (though i’m not pushing my luck).

#18

Well, i specialize in the Japanese art part but the problem is I don���t have a scanner so I really can’t post much high quality stuff. Of course, maybe it is because my role model is Ogure Ito but I tend toward to draw smexy females, and sometimes I seem to borderline bakunyuu… at times…

http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q277/RoseKruz/

Since my work is too large though, you’ll have to use this to search through it.

#19

I’m sure Lamuness and Shingo wouldn’t object to that. :stuck_out_tongue:

#20

That’s good stuff, I was never much for the loli/moe stuff anyway. Well unless it was moe gone yandere.