Pah! I hate that mentality, also… it’s the same sort of reasoning that plaqued Roleplaying Games in the early days. One psychologically disturbed idiot would go do something stupid–like get lost in steam tunnels, or commit suicide–and suddenly everybody who was involved with RPG’s was psychologically disturbed, according to the media and everybody who heard about the cases. So, with bishoujo, you get one actual whacko who plays the games, and all of a sudden, we’re all perverts and worse…
Well the sad truth about our, and perhaps any, society is they love the flash in a pan news story, and what’s a bigger one then someone doing something very idiotic, very dangerous, that might hurt them or hurt another? We have entire television shows based on this nowadays and did back in the days of faked funny video tapes of people doing stupid things that probably cost them more in medical bills then they won on the show.
Anyway, remember it is not the 1.99 million of us that sit at home play these games, go into work and live normal lives that will ever make the news, it is the 1 out of the rest of us that always does because they are the flash in the pan. It is also easier to just see the visible one and assume everyone else is similar then actually look to see if the visible one is the rule or the exception or the rule, and from that easier path make policy on what should be done for that person and the rest “like them”, whose only similarity might be the fact they played the same game.
I’m just tired of dealing with that crap. I also had to deal with it when I was in the SCA. I was a member for years, and then, all of a sudden, somebody did something (I don’t even remember the story now), and it came out that the guy was an occultist and into Satanic worship. You guessed it–next thing you knew, the SCA was one big Satanic cult, and we were constantly having to deflect questions about it and trying to salvage PR for the organization. Not that I’m planning on giving up bishoujo games, but I’m tired of ending up in fringe groups that get “labeled” just because the mass of humanity is willing to look at a couple of bad apples and listen to a few loud-mouths give bad publicity about the group as a whole. The bottom line about negative attitudes toward bishoujo games is that that is what it’s really all about–the bad apples and the loud-mouths. pant, pant Okay, I’m calm now…
Well the other part that goes with following the flash in the pan (impressive but somewhat meaningless and worthless to the whole is the best and shortest way I can think to describe this for those that did not know) it is much easier to be a follower then a leader.
Therefore if you call all people that drive DeLorean’s at 88 miles per hour thinking they can time travel to be pure evil rather then just perhaps slightly eccentric, well then a lot of others will too, because once again it is easier for those others to just assume you know what you are talking about, especially if you already have a group following, then to go against the group and do work to see for themselves if you know what you are talking about or are just making it up as you go. That is another problem few will stand against the larger group, many studies on this in both psychology and sociology, and sad as it might be for the moment we are the mavericks because we play these games and because we don’t assume anything about them despite what the majority (most of who has probably never even tried to play or seen how those that play think about one of these games) seems to think at this point in time.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-08-2004).]
Consider the fact that the culture that gave rise to bishoujo games is one that values conformity above all else. No other society draws such careful lines around those who are uchi [in-group] and soto or yoso [not-in-group]. The worst thing you can call someone in Japan is an individualist. Your theory doesn’t seem to apply.
But it does within the U.S. and at the moment that is the culture that is not allowing the games to be sold at the level the other culture is, also look at it this way, they do conform to maybe groups the in and out groups, but do they pre-judge things as to the level the U.S. does? Do they say “oh that has sex so it is pure evil and to play it is a sin”, an argument I have actually heard people make? Are they so dominate by religion that if a leader of their religious place of worship tells them such games are a sin they will think that way too even if they had never heard of these games before and that religious leader, who only heard about them right before the day’s “preaching”, told them it is a sin? That was an event I witnessed on campus.
If they do all of that and the games still sell sure then the argument does not apply if they don’t then it applies within this culture since all cultures are different different restrictions and reasons things do not happen within that culture also apply. The U.S. also claims to love individuals but we are a culture of individual conformity, marvericks aren’t loved, expect in movies perhaps, they are mocked, they are told to tow the line, they are told things like love it or leave it so saying or just implying the U.S. loves individuality I think is false, it tolerates it more then other places is perhaps more the truth, but individuals are not truly liked here when push comes to shove anymore then they are other places.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-08-2004).]
[Responding to SCDawg] Yeah, I know… I’ve long since discovered that I seem to be in the minority, since I’m willing to keep an open mind about most things and get information first before forming a conclusive opinion about something. And even then, I usually recognize that my opinion may not be shared by others, and will make allowances for that fact. If everyone thought that way, there would probably be a lot fewer conflicts in this world. And certainly, more people would be open to learning about something simple, like bishoujo games. On the other hand, it’s kinda cool to be a maverick.
[Responding to perigee] Actually, since his argument was that few would stand against the larger group, and you’re saying that in Japan, conformity is the norm, I think that you’re saying the same thing. The only reason that bishoujo arose in Japan is because their values on sex and censorship are different than in most western cultures (and a lot of eastern cultures, too, for that matter).
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Originally posted by SCDawg:
Part of this societal blame for our own faults idea, could also be why it is hard to sell these games. Someone seeing scenes in these games then copies those acts and "obviously" they are not to blame, even if they are the only one to do so out of two million game players, it must be the games fault and therefore the game is bad.That is another obstacle perhaps faced in getting these games out in this society.
I see a bunch of people responding to this idea, so I think I'll just reply to the original poster.
There is an important point here, that I think everyone is missing. The USA has quite a lot of resistance to sexually explicit material, this is true. But this is overcome all the time, from every corner. The pornography industry in this country is enormous.
You can buy out-and-out porn in a great many retail chains that have refused to carry Peach Princess' products.
For emphasis, let me say that again: you can buy blatant, explicit pornography in many of the chains that didn't even TALK to Peter when he approached them.
This dichotomy can not be explained away as some sort of bias against explicit sex. Nor can it be explained by arguing the specific content of the games is too extreme - it has been repeatedly noted here that these games have FAR more redeeming literary value than ANY live action porn from the US. (There may be exceptions, but they're so obscure I've never even heard of them.)
No, this is because these stores are not at all sure the products will sell. Let me be a bit stronger; they're sure that they will not. Manga could not easily be found in all but a few bookstores, until recently. A few years ago, RPGs were in the same boat; Japan was awash with them, the US market was in eternal drought. Because "everyone knew" that RPGs didn't sell.
Bishoujo games are hampered just as much by the chicken-and-egg problem as by the "sex is bad" bias. If not more. In my opinion this is actually the worse of the two problems, because the "sex is bad" bias never really seemed to bother Penthouse, at least not their sales figures. (The trials, I imagine, didn't help.)
In thinking about what you have said, perhaps the fact the pornography industry is so large creates part of this problem and part of the dichotomy. People might be very “sexually free” behind closed doors but watch someone buying what can be deemed pornography from the local bookstore and see what the general, at least public, opinions of those people are from others that also see the purchase.
Also with pornography being what is and what people expect it to be these games might ironically suffer by not being considered pornographic enough by those that sell pornography while being considered too pornographic by those that have never played them and do not understand them, how’s that for irony? One side says it’s too much, the other too little and both harm the industry as a result when in fact they are just good enjoyable games both sides would probably like if they gave them a chance.
Maybe too if this nation was a little less free in the pornography sense these games might not suffer as much, it is a paradox, it is the chicken and the egg, and/or perhaps an oxymoron to say less liberal with sexual views the better these games which have sex in them might do, but thinking about what you have said about the pornography industry got me thinking along these lines which is slightly opposite of previous thoughts, and I fully agree as to what you asid about porn from the U.S. however as said that could be part of why these games get the short end of the straw.
Though in a way I think the dichotomy can be explained away as a bias not against explicit sex, but against the views of people that enjoy such scenes we are expected to hold at least while in public.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-08-2004).]
Actually this goes back to something that was being discussed somewhere–I don’t remember whether it was this thread or another one–about the potential growth of the bishoujo market. Anime and RPG’s, until fairly recently could only be bought in specialty stores that struggled along in many cases, and were often labors of love for the owners of said stores. Now, you can go into mainstream book stores and find both, as well as anime in mainstream movie stores. I hold out the hope that bishoujo will eventually break through the barriers that anime and RPG’s (and more recently, manga has started to) have broken through, and become more widely accessible. Part of this, of course, depends on how many of the games eventually make their way into the American market for translation, and that is something that only time will tell. Hopefully, the groundswell of support will continue, profitablity for the companies will grow, and we will see a happy ending.
The Japanese seem to have an easier time reconciling the dark side of sexuality and violence that exists in their society. That dark undercurrent is less visible to us in the West, but occasionally makes the news with sensational stories of mutilation/rape like the case of 15-year-old Seito Sakakibara a few years ago. There’s a fictionalized, but revealing account of institutionalized violence in Japanese high schools depicted in the movie All about Lily Chou Chou. If you happen across a translation of this 1997 film, check it out.
I guess what I’m saying is that differences in our perception of sexuality is due to differences in how the two societies regard nature. In one case, the good and bad are seen as inseparable components of human behavior. In the West we are more likely to see problems as a failure of society to control deviance, with the solution being stronger intervention. On occasion the two philosophies come into conflict, such as this story recently reported in Japan Times about a visiting couple who were forced to deal with our arbitrary child molestation laws that clashed with their practice of family skinship. It’s a good illustration of just how large the gap separating our views really is.
I am not sure that the facts of the two cultures being different though truly is important in trying to expand the U.S. or Western Market other then understanding that they are different allows you to know that an “attack” that works in one culture will not always if ever work in the other culture.
Understanding a culture is always good and might be important for other reasons, but is the fact they are different really important to the fact that some hurdles that exist here which don’t there must be overcome here? These hurdles are here and therefore must be overcome here regardless of them existing over there and it is nothing that involves changing the medium, merely the perceptions of the medium, which might be like trying to move a mountain, but isn’t that the real issue rather then the fact the two cultures are different?
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-08-2004).]
It’s important to understand the differences if we wish to understand why b-games are part of one culture but not the other. The hurdles you refer to don’t originate from just the right or left, they result from a general belief in the ability to control nature by means of external laws and censorship. Both conservatives and liberals think that removing the source of temptation will eliminate potential problems.
The current strategy of their promoters seems to be getting b-games classified as porn so they don’t seem so foreign and dangerous. Perhaps that’s another reason the Japanese are reluctant to participate in the distribution.
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On occasion the two philosophies come into conflict, such as this story recently reported in Japan Times about a visiting couple who were forced to deal with our arbitrary child molestation laws that clashed with their practice of family skinship.
I read the article, and it was well written, I liked it.
But of course, the issue at hand is just... stupid. Damn Americans.
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Originally posted by perigee:
It's important to understand the differences if we wish to understand why b-games are part of one culture but not the other. The hurdles you refer to don't originate from just the right or left, they result from a general belief in the ability to control nature by means of external laws and censorship. Both conservatives and liberals think that removing the source of temptation will eliminate potential problems.The current strategy of their promoters seems to be getting b-games classified as porn so they don't seem so foreign and dangerous. Perhaps that's another reason the Japanese are reluctant to participate in the distribution.
I still don't think you need to know the culture of where they are made to find a way to sell them here, we don't do that with Japanese built cars, though they might have slightly different styles to the controls, better gas mileage and overall be superior, we just accept them as cars. It is always good to learn other cultures but being different it is irrelevant that they might sell well there because of X since X will likely not work outside of their culture. Try it sure but if it fails don't be surprised. Yet more importantly given that no one questions Japanese built cars okay they were joked about in the past but that was the past as a nation we should be smart enough to learn not to make the same mistake involing at least one other nation's products over and over again, so why are these games not just accepted as games, it is nothing to do with the Japanese culture being different or even foriegn, it is all with ours. Why are they seen as "foreign and dangerous" by the same people that go out to Japanese restaurants in the Japanese built cars using their Japanese built cell phones and PDA's to stay in touch with others when they can in cities, why are they seen as dangerous by and therefore called porn, by the same people that buy a Japanese car, cell phone, PDA, television, stereo system and might watch anime? To me it is because all things do come from one direction or the other left or right, in the case of repression of ideas and concepts often comes from the both the conservative and religious sectors, not always but quite often throughout history it has been the case more times then it has not been the case.
Focus first on that and see if those that are stopping this by calling it porn since they think it is "foreign and dangerous" fall into one side or the other, in this case the conservative branch. From personal interactions with some people let's see, they quote the undermining of moral rights, a few have told me personally these games are a sin and I most go confess at a local church, they tell me such concepts are a threat to the values of this nation, to play them makes me un-American, though watching anime, reading manga, using products made by Japanese companies and eating at Japanese restaurants helps to make me more American in some weird fashion. All of that sounds very conservative to me as they tell me how to think by stating why these games should not be played by using morality and religion to say why they are foriegn and dangerous even though something equally foreign like anime is not dangerous.
For the record I have also never meet a liberal who has told me how I must think or that I cannot try something for myself, they might say why they think the other side is wrong but I have never heard one out-rightly say the other side is wrong end of story. Most also never use morality but universal civial rights, meaning as long as you don't deny me my rights to do what I want so long as no harm is brought to another I cannot deny you the same rights. Additionally I have also never met a liberal that thinks censorship or external laws are first the solution to anything and second when put in place have any true ability to control the populace unless you are willing to execute on the streets violators of the smallest law or rule no questions asked. Even then you just make the violates more crafty. Perhaps being a liberal and growing up around other Quaker Liberals those liberals I know are the exception but they always voiced grave concern over censorship and external laws and were the ones that taught me such things have no true ability to control, and anyone that thinks they do will learn the hard way. You cannot stop ideas once they are known particular by those smart enough to know just because someone says something is wrong does not mean it is wrong, you cannot stop temptation by removing one possible source which will always have reminders of it through the fact you cannot remove all forms of a similar temptation or what you might feel that temptation leads too in life. If the goal is to stop the temptation of sex, well even they should know that is a losing battle.
Anyone that truly thinks removing a temptation is a solution has never studied about Prohibition, since we all know how well making alcohol illegal and removing that temptation from the public worked to curb the "sins" of society. At least I as a liberal do not think as you mentioned liberals think, that removing the source of the temptation will eliminate potential problems, I think in fact such an elimination will only create greater problems, yet if that is our only true hurdle then we know what we have to overcome, and that is outside of any consideration for why this works in another culture but not within this one.
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From personal interactions with some people let's see, they quote the undermining of moral rights, a few have told me personally these games are a sin and I most go confess at a local church, they tell me such concepts are a threat to the values of this nation, to play them makes me un-American, though watching anime, reading manga, using products made by Japanese companies and eating at Japanese restaurants helps to make me more American in some weird fashion.
Self-contradiction is everywhere. [img]http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v35/Benoit/wacko.gif[/img]
Yup, they do it to themselves, which is part of the fun and yet part of the pain in talking with these people, which is not something I always look to do, but happens at times when they start talking about these games as just porn and I feel the need to defend them.
When I asked them to explain such a contradiction a few at the same table as me gave the following explaination, which to paraphrase about eight of them into one sentence “It’s because they make the coolest electronic gadgets, and they have awesome food like Sushi. Anime is just awesome you don’t see stuff like that in Tom and Jerry and besides their cars are always among the best and safest on the market. So supporting that stuff means supporting good things and that’s being a true American.” Their words at the end not mine.
Yet to them the games are horrible because they have sex and sex is evil. These people, as scary as it seems, don’t see it as a contradiction and when it is pointed out fall back on the old “so you why don’t you leave this country, you obviously hate it” line. That is their stellar defense to the possibility of having made a contradiction.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-09-2004).]
Every now and again, the question arises if they can do it in Japan, why can’t we do it here? To learn that answer you need to understand the underlying forces at work. You can argue that they’re not important, but then how can you hope to understand what you’re up against?
You see it as a struggle against “conservatives and religious sectors”. Sorry, but I see it as a conflict that crosses political boundaries. To use your example, Prohibition was the brainchild of liberal Republicans who formed the Progressive Party which called for tariff reform, stricter regulation of industrial combinations, women¬Åfs suffrage, prohibition of child labor, and other reforms. Their philosophical heirs today are the liberal do-gooders fighting to make the world ‘child-safe’. The only political group likely to support a free and open market for b-games are the Libertarians, who are self-avowed conservatives. Thinking of this as a struggle against political divisions will leave you charging windmills.
The discussion has strayed pretty far - even for this board. Perhaps it should be moved to the Off-Topic Thread, although I may have to bow out for a bit to prepare for my Japanese class.
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So supporting that stuff means supporting good things and that's being a true American.
Hmm, so being an American to them is supporting good things, Japanese things.
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Yet to them the games are horrible because they have sex and sex is evil.
So the contradiction is that even though bishoujo games are Japanese, they are evil. Because of the sex. So those people you talk with are evil, because mommy and daddy did something that was obviously eeevil? Why don't we just kill them, since they are evil. [img]http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v35/Benoit/wacko.gif[/img]
I would ask them why sex is evil. Especially because I'm sure they watch porn, and porn = sex = evil.
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"so you why don't you leave this country, you obviously hate it"
Yes! Let's ALL leave this country, because we ALL HAVE SEX, and SEX IS EVIL, therefore we are evil and not American. Woohoo!
That's just... brilliant! [img]http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v35/Benoit/wacko.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
You see it as a struggle against "conservatives and religious sectors". Sorry, but I see it as a conflict that crosses political boundaries.The discussion has strayed pretty far - even for this board. Perhaps it should be moved to the Off-Topic Thread, although I may have to bow out for a bit to prepare for my Japanese class. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
Yes perhaps it should be moved to that thread on that at least I agree. Some of what is next said is generalizations and a lot based on my own interactions and that of family and friends with churches, religious sectors, in the past. Growing up in a Quaker Meeting they actually allowed more free thought and did not stop someone from standing up and speaking their mind on how we should lower the age limits for various "adult" magazines.
I have spent many years growing up around liberals and I have never heard that before, though I have heard, much as, the Republican and Demarcate Parties have flipped views, liberals have become a lot more liberal with time, and you know they blame the conservatives for calling themselves liberals to gain sympathy to force Prohibition, and they do not consider, nor do I based on many of their views, themselves to be conservative. There are branches of them that are sure, just like there are branches of conservatives that are liberal, but not all are one or all the other, but that does not change this being cultural and such a struggle as mentioned, or do you know a time that religious sectors, who always seem to have a majority of conservatives within them, personal generalized opinion, have said "sex is great, everyone have orgies we fully support that and will forgive you for it afterwards so go out and have as much as you can get from anyone willing".
A slight bit sarcastic but the point is I have never seen the church support sex except for the good of itself or the good of the state which it in part does or tries to control through such means as saying "if you vote for politicians that have these views you will not get the Sacraments". To them I can see how these games must be horrible because some can involve members of the church having sex in a church (like that never happens) and might get those who have never had sex suddenly very interested in something they might already be or eventually will become no matter how hard anyone tries to delay or stop it. However, that also means these games takes control away from the church of telling people the sins of sex. To those that have never had sex, following all guidelines fearing committing a sin otherwise, to suddenly see people how much in the games are enjoying it and then start to wonder if it really is that enjoyable then sin or not many who have never had it I think would just go out and push aside all the dark warnings the church gives to them.
I never like to say stuff like that because it sounds like I am anti a lot of religions, when in truth so long as no one tells me what I can or cannot believe or what I have to believe I frankly don't care what anyone chooses to believe religion wise. That said though, these opinions come from many years of hearing stories from family who left various churches, growing up in a Quaker Meeting and hearing tales form others in churches of how thoughts of sex are a sin, how the proper way to do this is this, or that is that, all lead to my opinion that free thinking is not really wanted by churches, how once again seem dominated by conservatives. These games are very much involved in free thinking in a way since they involve and act most churches I know speak out against in every way they can speak out against it. Prove me wrong if you can, show me a time a single time either conservatives and/or the religious sectors have promoted sex and anything related to it which does not include saying condoms are wrong since that can be viewed as not condoning teenage sex. If you can find even one example then fine then this is not and issue, if you cannot then I think these are the ture hurdles, yes culture might be what allows one place to have the games out and not the other, but the answer to getting it out is not found in the cultural differences but it what makes the culture that is blocking it block it, and one of the biggest influences on culture is religion.
Or can politics explain why one culture that is very restrictive with sex, yet has "love hotels" can sell these games more openly, then another that proudly boasts being home to the Playboy Mansion yet has people buying these games from mostly online only sources?
If it does will it eventually force a change so people will be allowed the right to choose to buy these games in a place like 7-11 or walk past them to buy soda or going against the political structure are you eventually going to find the politicans mirroring the arguments made by churches, who make up a lot of their voting support.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-09-2004).]