Quick question (might be dumb to all of you)

I always thought, from what others have said, that shows like Speed Racer were actually what started the anime popularity over here, or sowed the seeds for it which in part lead to the different varieties now sold. Yes I think the English dubbed version of Speed Racer is worthy of each and very mocking it gets, but isn’t this one that is closer to the reason why anime is so massively popular today?

Not for anything it did entirely on its own, but because it was one of the first and somehow proved this market was not worth abandoning entirely at that point in time, even though it was a much more “cult” group of fandom then today. Though if they had abandoned it then without those shows might it not have lead to a much slower expansion of the anime market and even today maybe no anime like those already discussed being over here on television and in manga format?

Without that expansion sure anime would have continued and been a big market in Japan, but would it have been as expansive since to a point both markets help make it profitable enough to just keep turning out new anime at the rate they seem to be doing if magazines like Newtype truly show several new or upcoming animes, for the Japanese market, in each and every issue. With or without shows like DBZ the true ones to be thanked for the variety in genres that exist today are the ones often mocked today or at least that is my thinking.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-04-2004).]

quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
Shaman King sucks by definition because it brings nothing new to the genre.

Huh, I like Shaman King to be honest. I like the art style and it has a better sense of humor than most of it's brother series. But then, I've only ever read the manga, so I can't comment on the anime.

Saying it "sucks by definition because it brings nothing new to the genre" seems rather silly to me, because that definition would eliminate like, 90% of the anime out there.

I'm not really all that concerned over whether an anime is formulaic or not. The great majority are, so I really don't see the need to get worried over it. How the formula is handled is a bit more important to me.

I said, by definition. Doesn’t mean it’s bad in reality. :stuck_out_tongue:

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
I always thought, from what others have said, that shows like Speed Racer were actually what started the anime popularity over here, or sowed the seeds for it which in part lead to the different varieties now sold.

Of course the reason that Speed Racer (and a lot of the early anime series) seemed to suck so bad was because America was still buying into the mentality that animation was for kids, so the shows that came across the ocean weren't too deep, and were then further "dumbed down" for children. But there was anime slipping into America years before Speed Racer... although Speed Racer probably became the most well known (for whatever reason). But I agree that a lot of these earlier series laid the groundwork for the anime revolution to take place... although I think it was the movie Akira that first caused America to look at anime as not "just for kids."

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
(...)although I think it was the movie Akira that first caused America to look at anime as not "just for kids."

I vaguely remember that being on television but it was a channel that I am not sure whas ever shown anime since if it's the right channel thought of, and yes with the content of that anime I kind understand how that would change the view of anime being "just for kids".


What with the ads they ran late at night for Akira and other “adult animation” plus a few comments dropped by older friends, I was under the impression for a while that all anime was pornographic!

… and when I first found hentai sites, I didn’t understand that those pictures of Sailor Moon naked were not in fact drawn by the original artist, and accepted it when another friend told me that ALL these shows in Japan had nude/sex scenes but they were cut for import into America!

looks sheepish

quote:
Originally posted by papillon:

What with the ads they ran late at night for Akira and other "adult animation" plus a few comments dropped by older friends, I was under the impression for a while that all anime was pornographic!

... and when I first found hentai sites, I didn't understand that those pictures of Sailor Moon naked were not in fact drawn by the original artist, and accepted it when another friend told me that ALL these shows in Japan had nude/sex scenes but they were cut for import into America!

*looks sheepish*


Well you must have thought that the artist was very erratic, then ^__^

I found hentai sites before I ever knew anime even existed (sad but true). I don't know why I liked it more than I did real porn - I think it was easier to find. I got into anime only AFTER this when I was introduced to the Streamline version of Vampire Hunter D on a local TV station (another subject, that TV station ... so dirt poor they can barely survive by running infomercials during prime time).

It took me some time to connect the two and to figure out what all this was. I sort of figured out that all these pictures were from a game or a story of some sort, because they were too patterned; a given "set" would sort of make sense in order. I was really confused as to the 3 terms "hentai" "manga" and "anime" for quite awhile though.

All of this being why a certain amount of educating needs to be done. I think some of these stories, while amusing, are a little sad. It’s an indicator of what sort of wall we might be running up against when we are introducing things like bishoujo games. Part of the problem, of course, is that the Japanese are a little less repressed sexually, so it’s not unusual to run into nude graphics (incidentally, it’s also not unusual for an artist to actually do an erotic or hentai pose of his otherwise pure character, just for kicks–although I don’t think they often make it to the internet). Ironically, the Japanese do tend to censor more, so while you might see “nudity” in a lot of anime, it’s “fake”–you don’t really see anything. The real hentai stuff wouldn’t do much for an American audience if it came directly from Japan without being “uncensored.” Some people who are superficially exposed to anime don’t realize this, and put the worst spin on it. I don’t know–I’m a little sick today, and rambling a bit–but I still feel that there’s a need to get people more informed about what things like bishoujo are all about, rather than letting uninformed opinions hold sway.

I agree education is the key, but the question remains how? Ignorance is easy, you don’t have to try and learn anything, you can simply sit and listen to what others tell you blindly trusting that it’s sunny out when if you bothered to look out the window you would see stars and the moon but no sun.

If the people advertising showed the truth about such shows maybe they think fewer people would watch? Think if they billed shows like Detective Conan as a kids show that just happens to be on at 12:30 am, it’s mixed signals, confuses people. Anyway, how to educate remains the key question. It is probable the advertisers will be of little help and they are the ones with perhaps the easiest access to the largest number of people with the ability to educate them, since some people seem to trust what is on television almost with a blind faith. So without their help, and with ads carefully cut to make shows which might not be “adult” coming across as “adult” there is a major barrier to educating people as to these shows not being “adult”.

Then you have the TV-Ratings, which for a few years now at least in the U.S., people have been told to follow as a guide for “proper television viewing for them and their child”. Even now there are far more aggressive ad campaigns around where I am, talking about using the Ratings with the horrid V-Chip, and/or having the cable company block channels that have too many “bad” ratings. People are already brainwashed, or educated (can you tell my feelings about this rating system) to trust these ratings and as a result go against some shows that have ratings not proper for viewing without ever seeing these shows to see if the rating is justified in their own opinion. With that in mind, and with a culture that already thinks negatively about anything entitled Bishoujo do you think anything that is deemed a Bishoujo Anime would stand a chance of getting a rating that encourages parents to watch, let their kids watch, or has some of the more conservative people watch blindly? Perhaps not, which means there are major hurtles to overcome in the education process.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-06-2004).]

Granted. Trying not to be too melodramatic… in a way, we have to be like missionaries in a fledgling religion–we have to be the ones to educate where and when we can. The companies who make the products will simply bill them as they are, rating them as either inappropriate for children, or appropriate for ages x and up. So it pretty much falls onto the shoulders of those that play the games to be the ones talking about them. If we hide in a closet and act as if we are doing something secretive and socially unacceptable, that’s what people will think about the games. On the other hand, if we are open about them, discuss them frankly, and try to clarify issues about the “adultness” of the games–there comes the chance to educate. Unfortunately, there will be the people who don’t want to listen, and who think negatively no matter what we say. That’s a problem in any movement. But there will always be the person who says, “Oh, I didn’t know that.” and who goes away with a better understanding of what bishoujo games are all about. And that’s what we should be after.

Perhaps also some of these age ratings, saying this is for x and up, must be questioned and chanlleged maybe into changing for the better which means bumping the age limits down. I am not talking about the ages of the characters in the games but who can buy the games legally. Say bump the age down two years and allow 16 year olds to buy them, won’t happen in the U.S. any time soon, but might be worth the effort. The 18 and older really hurts give a positive image because of what people normally think of when that age restriction is attached. Perhaps such a bad image that even if every one of us are in public playing these games, such an act might harm our public and private image with current thinking the way it is in this nation at least rather then help the games image.

It has been said before but all of these age limits are very arbitry to start with, since someone does not go to bed age 17 at 11:59 pm, wakes up at age 18 at 12:01 am, and is suddenly mature enough to handle ideas of sexual relationships. If that idea of no overnight sudden ability to handle these ideas or not handle them before that time can be made more accepted perhaps the age limit can be pushed back two years, which I still think if it is ever done would be a huge boost to the industry.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-06-2004).]

Along those lines might be to more clearly indicate what is being portrayed in terms of content. The American release of Eve: Burst Error, for example, had nothing in terms of nudity or sex, but did contain strong language, sexual inuendo, and graphic violence. I’ve also noticed that even in terms of sex scenes, some are more “graphic” than others–some people who might not be offended by the adult content of one bishoujo game might find themselves shocked by the content of another. I myself have found that it’s something of a game of Russian Roulette in terms of what I might find waiting for me in a particular game in terms of sex and violence.

That perhaps is the only way to go, explaining the content, because different rating systems are unneeded and overly confusing. However, to expand the market I think the one thing that we cannot be concerned about and have to be slightly heartless about, is what might offend who, and just mention how they are so many different types of Bishoujo games that Game A might offend you, but Games B, C, D, E, and F will not when Game G does again.

Making clear that some might offend when others will not might be more important then spending the time to explain each one which might in fact hurt the industry once again since people would not hear about a story like Crescendo but instead latch on to “Oh there is forced sex in this game, and this game has a teacher raping students, and this one has bondage”. They will focus only one what they want to most likely to undermine something they do not understand or like.

That is why I think it is far more important to focus only on the fact that some might offend and some might not, so if one does offend you try a few others and it is very likely you will find a style that will not and that is one you can look for in the future now that you know the key words or phrases in descriptions to look for to find those types of games.

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Even now there are far more aggressive ad campaigns around where I am, talking about using the Ratings with the horrid V-Chip, ... People are already brainwashed, or educated (can you tell my feelings about this rating system)

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-06-2004).]


Speaking of being brainwashed, what's so bad about the V-chip? It has parental controls on it, like you can set in a web browser. It's very little different than internet filtering software. It's not like you HAVE to use the v-chip.

I find it interesting that people talk about b-games in glowing terms here, and one of the points they like to bandy about is "look at all the violence that's on TV! What's worse, sex or violence?" - but there's a negative reaction to the v-chip?

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
in a way, we have to be like missionaries in a fledgling religion

You mean we have to kill everyone who disagrees with us running the show?

::hides::

Actually, fledgling religions rarely persecute… they are usually the persecuted–but hey, if that’s what you want to do to deal with the ignorant sots that want to run down bishoujo games, more power to ya

quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
Speaking of being brainwashed, what's so bad about the V-chip? It has parental controls on it, like you can set in a web browser. It's very little different than internet filtering software. It's not like you HAVE to use the v-chip.

I find it interesting that people talk about b-games in glowing terms here, and one of the points they like to bandy about is "look at all the violence that's on TV! What's worse, sex or violence?" - but there's a negative reaction to the v-chip?


Fair warning, you did ask.

You have to understand that part of this is a general paranoia about anything that takes judgment, responsibility along with some control away from the individual and also any technology meeting the previous criteria which the government not only fully backs but requires by law to be in electronics made in this nation or sold in this nation. Once more this might be paranoia, but I see such technology that takes judgment away and responsibility for making case by case decisions and ask how long before someone on the outside can control it, how long before people so blindly follow it's judgments they no longer question? People laugh when I suggest such things, but they also laughed when I said one day television shows would have ratings similar to movies and some people would blindly follow those ratings. I am very much a liberal thinker and believe, perhaps not so liberally, that no one should ever give even partial control of their decision to another because then they might forget how to make a case by case decision that might go against what a machine or another persons judgment in rating tells them and at the very least they might cease to think for themselves, begin to blindly trust the words of another an put faith in what they are told without thought or question. Once again look at all the parents that blindly follow television ratings without seeing for themselves if a TV-PG show is something they would let their own 6 year old children watch regardless of the rating.

My main problem with the V-Chip has already be stated in part, parents no longer have true control as they put their trust in something that works on generalities not a specific case by case basis, yes they can say to a point what is blocked, but people no longer have to think for themselves about what might be, if you'll pardon the slight euphemism, acceptable losses through "good" violence versus a mass killing for the sake of a movie "bad" violence, or of what might be coined as "tolerable" sexual content of slight innuendo versus "unacceptable" sexual content of the act being on the screen. To us violence as the example it truly becomes a general term to both the people using the V-chip and the V-chip itself to the point that someone being impaled in graphic fashion, the Enterprise blowing up another ship, perhaps even something like It's A Wonderful Life or Bambi, are seen as having violence and are universally blocked. Or all are seen as having TV-PG ratings and are universally blocked, either way the judgment is no longer the persons as to if they even agree with the rating given the show it is all up to the V-chip unless they override the block.

No one stops to think, no one stops to try and make judgments on what is best for their children on a case by case basis anymore, they rely on technology to create generalities. Yes the case by case judgment requires time, but if you want to have a child/children, personally I think you have to make the time for such case by case judgments, which not only work better then a general block, but are also an excellent way to implicitly teach children to think for themselves to come to their own conclusion about something without blindly trusting the judgment/rating of another person or technological device. As to the web browsers controls the idea from an MSN ad comes up of a child having to ask permission to view information on the Bikini Island Nuclear Tests, not because of the violence of a Nuclear Bomb mind you, but because it has the word "Bikini" in the title. It always blocks without discrimination because it cannot judge on a case by case basis about what might be a 6 year old stumbling on a swimsuit shoot and what is a 12 year old doing a project on the history of the nuclear bomb and for these reasons I am quite obviously against such technology.

Also if you fall into this trap of trusting generalizations, of thinking that all violence, all sex, all themes of one type are bad on one term, you will do so with other terms, and to me that is part of what leads to the blindness people hold toward and against these games simply because it is said each of them might contain something which must all be the same and "amoral" for children to view with their nudity and sexual scenes, since our blockers can be set to block it out and it's rated 18 and up. Yet I think most of us would say there are vast differences in such scenes between games such as Private Nurse and Kana versus Do You Like Horny Bunnies and Secert Wives Club. Personally if and/or when I have children the former games are ones I would not mind them playing at a very young age on their own, and the latter two only with a strong talk about first the act of sex and also how such events seen in the game are less likely to happen in real life then their traveling back in time to become their own great-great-grandparent.

Before the objection might be made, yes not all people blindly trust, put faith in, or follow this technology, but it is my opinion that enough people do that it harms such industries as this because people look no further then the implication that these games are porn, they are for 18 and up, they have sexual situations some of which might be and are forced, they have "adult" themes and therefore are bad. If people actually thought for themselves they might investigate a little more and see the truth about these games and not work so hard against something their likely neither understand or have even tried for themselves.

Also I think enough do use this, enough blindly trust this, and so few would turn it off because it is too easy to trust it, that all of the aforementioned can become, if it is not already so which I believe it is on the verge of becoming, a true problem. This also neglects the fact through the use of such technology you are denying the child a right to explore their world on their own, which to me is one of the few ways we as children learn to set our own limits and to help us learn to use and trust our own judgments, now we are taught there are boundaries but not always why and to put our trust into someone/something else thereby never questioning or pushing those boundaries since someone/something else tells us they exist for a "good" reason.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-06-2004).]

I have to agree with that because I have come to see that our society has fallen into what I term the “baby-sitting” mentality–in general, our society expects others, like the government, to tell us how to behave and to act, and what is morally right and wrong (and I mean this from a religeous and spiritual sense–which is something that our government shouldn’t be involved in in the first place). Parents in general don’t want the responsibility of raising a child these days… it is far easier to put them in front of a television or a computer and forget about them rather than to spend quality time with them, and it is this quality time that would allow a parent to make judgement calls about what a child should or shouldn’t be watching. Part of this, I think, stems from the movement that started–what–back in the seventies, I think, when psychologists started placing the blame for every miscreant onto society rather than the disintigration of the nuclear family. To come back to the point, I am against anything that essentially tells me how to think or pretends to make up my mind for me. Ooh… I guess I’d better not get started, or I could get into a real rant

That was a long post. Thank God it was on a grey background instead of a white one.
But I do agree.

I like to set my own limits and such and judge for myself. Mozilla is set to accept all cookies, BUT it always has to ask first. Nyah, nyah. :stuck_out_tongue:
I’ve always been against browsers’ settings to put allow/deny functions in place, because they are flawed. Innocent sites such as Hotmail or a Belgian site are blocked because they are not rated.

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
(...)Part of this, I think, stems from the movement that started--what--back in the seventies, I think, when psychologists started placing the blame for every miscreant onto society rather than the disintigration of the nuclear family. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] (...)

Part of this societal blame for our own faults idea, could also be why it is hard to sell these games. Someone seeing scenes in these games then copies those acts and "obviously" they are not to blame, even if they are the only one to do so out of two million game players, it must be the games fault and therefore the game is bad.

That is another obstacle perhaps faced in getting these games out in this society.