RoleMaster2

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Except there’s no Adrenal Move called “Spell Overdance”, so… wait. Oh, you mean the Spell Avoidance in the Arms Companion?
…you know, if you don’t use the correct naming, we won’t get anywhere. Also, it doesn’t give you much bonus to the spell itself (a mere -25), merely a move effect, and its effect is greatly reduced because of the recovery round thereafter (making you a sitting duck; well, okay, not that much but you get my point).

The only later Companion (OC not included) with a Monk base spell is the Spell User Companion with the Martial Mastery list; it has a spell related to Initiative (Lightning Strike) but it’s a laincursed 30th level spell, making it pretty useless, save for very high-level games.

Oh, then I guess you were talking about the Combat Reflexes list, but it’s not a ‘true’ Monk base list (if only because it’s Mentalism and a Monk is Essence). It is just suggested as an option to use it as a Monk base. As such, it’s not really canon. Even then, when Assured Initiative is “only” a 18th level spell, it’s still quite high level.
Don’t get me wrong: Combat Reflexes is a wonderful list. But you don’t last long with it because of the HUGE PP cost for each round of spells.

My problem with the Monk is that he’s not effective because he needs too much development points to be passable: aside from his spell list, he has to develop the four ranks of MA, pretty much all the Adrenal Moves, the Adrenal Defence, etc. MA is 2/5 for him; that’s 28 points a level to be truly proficient. Adrenal Defence is 6. Even if we consider he doesn’t need Quick Draw, that’s 6 Adrenal Moves he needs, at a cost of 2/4 each; even with one rank per level, that’s 12 points. We’re already at 46 points and we didn’t even take into account the development of the spell lists! Even with 100 in each stat, a character has 50 Dev. Pts.
Do the math.

Combat Reflex yea that’s one… I was searching for it ^^;
Well you can chose between Essence and mentalism for Monk since the beginning…

And Adrenaline Move Spell Overdance was maybe a wrong traduction i got…

Anyway, that’s tru that’s monk need a lot of Dev Point, it’s why, generally your doing a Non-User MA Class before for only 10 level (High Warrior Monk for xemple).
So you can compensate a little the cost of the MA.

Well, it’s all tips and trick, i’m, now pretty sure that we have a different point of view… Since all the people i’m mastering or playing with rarelly keep the same class until the end…And do a class change between level 10 and 15… And i’m doing the same… Except for some class.

It’s maybe why we saw a lot of difference in some class.

If you adhere to the Amthorian view. The thing is that , while it’s a matter of controversy, the official ruling is the Charltonian view that makes the Monk an user of Essence.

But the almost necessary need for a previous class changes the deal for the Monk as a profession in itself.

I’d be curious as to which rules you use for changing profession because the only rules with which I’m familiar (given in the RMCII) make it better to keep your original profession rather than to change it.

So far, I countered you with the official rules, though, but I guess we’re ending rule arguing which isn’t a good thing: as I wrote at the beginning, to each GM, his game and rules.

You’re using the rule where you become level 1 that’s it?
I don’t use this one.

Well we use custom rule…It’s a bit complicated.
it was rule we used in my Club for a long time before i get there (Well the Pen & Paper RPG Club of my city exist since 1978 and i get in in 1992/93)

You’re level 10 of High Warrior Monk.When you have the necesseray XP Points for the level 11…You need a Master to teach you and you become level 11 of Monk.
You keep your 10 level Class Bonus from the High Warrior Monk, but from level 11 onward you’ll use the Class Bonus and Cost of the Monk.

[edit]
But only One Class Change is allowed.

C’est carrÈment gros-bill ! :shock:
Par contre, IMO, cela fausse le calcul de la puissance d’une profession par rapport ‡ une autre, puisque cela devient Ètroitement liÈ ‡ la classe prÈcÈdente.

Oui c’est Gros-Bill de chez Gros-Bill… D’ou divers restrictions : un seul changement de classe, Èviter un changement totalement illogique (genre Paladin devient un Mage) etc…

Au final c’est le MJ qui dÈcide de la faisabilitÈ du changement et tant que le perso du joueur n’as pas trouver un Maitre pour le changement, il choisit soit de rester level 10 soit passer level 11 de Áa classe actuel… Sachant que si il reste dÈcide rester level 10 et de garder ces XP pour le changement de classe, il n’en gagneras plus.

D’ou ma vision diffÈrente des classes.

C’est clair que le Barbare qui devient Archimage… :shock:

Soudain, je comprends mieux, oui.

Mais attention, il y a parfois des changement de classe qui te semble illogique, et au final quand tu regarde bien, cela ne l’est pas tant que Áa.

par exemple un Bashkar qui devient Mentaliste… cela peu sembler illogique… Mais quand on voit les Bonus en concentration, ces co˚ts ainsi qu’un certain nombre de ces skills utilisant Presence comme Stats Principale… cela n’est pas si illogique et stupid au final.

Le Bahskar est une classes ayant une trËs grande affinitÈ avec PrÈsence et un excellent self-control et non un simple Berserk stupid.

Et la…en tant que MJ… c’est le drame voix des commentateurs de France 3

Well see, here I was following the thread all the way through, then you had to go and change languages on me. Not a terribly polite thing to do to your audience.

Not that I would engage in a rules discussion for Rolemaster anyway - considering how labyrinthine the rules became after the suppliments, contradictions, addendums, yearly adjustments in every compendium, etc.

I will say that in the years I played we never had a problem with power balance between the spell/non-spell using classes. Spell users were weakened by the fact that they spend all their dps in their lists and as such had very low values in other skills - whereas non-spell users could be remarkably skilled in their areas, but had no magic to draw upon. Really seemed to balance itself out quite well.

Sorry, but we entered a very geeky, untranslatable point of the discussion, so… (humour/jokes specific to p&p RPGs in France). Since we were (apparently) the only people playing (knowing?) RM2 on the boards, I thought it was a safe bet. Sorry, again.

It’s why RoleMaster Classic was published…
For my part, I never found the game “labyrinthine” considering the core rules never were much modified, all the RMC dealing with optional/alternate rules. It’s part of why I enjoy RM2 over other game systems: it’s very customisable.

Well, if you look at RM from an OS perspective… RM2 it’s Linux… You have the core and you add, remove whatever you like…Every GM have his “own” RM.

looking at your discussions on RM it doesn’t appear that it’s any more balanced mechanic-wise than D&D 3.5. It may be designed to be less battle-focused, but it seems magic is a nessasity and in fact a requirement pretty much and there are ways to easily cheese the system.

It may be more role-playing oriented, but in the end, it still has some classes stronger game-wise than others and when you have players who will do anything to make certain they get the uber item and not just 1 party or get upset when 1 person takes over the game (we were playing Mutants and Masterminds with a Duplicator that got rid of the minion flaw so no matter what he was getting 11 turns to our 1 turn…not fun).

“Balanced mechanic-wise” means nothing because each and every GM and player has a different vision about what “balance” means. The main point about RM2 is that it’s very modular, allowing each GM to make his own RM2, based on the rules. You could say that D&D is modular through the PrC, but while the concept is right, you still have to make your own PrC yourself and there’s no directive about how to “balance” them.

You can cheese any system, especially when you use house rules the way mirage’s group does. As for “magic is a nessasity”, if we consider that magic is the fantasy equivalent to technology, are you saying that the mastery of technology isn’t what make a country more “powerful” than another? If magic is the study of the laws of the Universe in order to understand and bend them to one’s will (the way technology is), I fail to see why it SHOULD not be more powerful than the mere enhancement of one’s human self, even more if we consider the Universe is less limited than the human body.

I posted about the matter countless times: if you think a game is balanced through “balanced” classes, you’re an idiot who thinks than IRL all professions are equal. IT’S NOT THE CASE. Being a president and a worker isn’t the same; being a graduate from MIT and not having graduating even from highschool isn’t the same. Neither profession nor education are balanced. Balance isn’t in the class itself, but what is around the class: prerequisites (such as the ability to pay for expensive studies), social status, etc.