Should there be an age restriction?

Visual Novel Community Off Topic
#1

There was an interesting issue raised in one of the Help forum topics that deserves further discussion. Should the sale of bishoujo games with “adult content” be restricted to those 18 years or older?

Current policy probably stems from business concerns about stirring up unfavorable public relations or litigation about sale to minors. From that standpoint, things probably won’t change, given the current moral climate. But if that wasn’t a consideration, I’d favor lowering the age restriction to that of other games with a “mature” rating. It might legitimize the genre for players who currently avoid it because they’ve been told it’s pornography.

Anyone who believes that adolescents must be shielded from depictions of nudity and sex to protect their “innocence” is pretty naive. The fact is that these games are getting into the hands of young people now [just like hardcore works], only through illicit channels. They are being taught how to pirate, and as a result they are likely to continue that practice even when they are old enough to legitimately buy the products.

Is there any way to lift the age restriction on bishoujo games?

#2

In its essence, it is basically porn. You think games with graphic sex scenes and whatnots should be for kids? There are other non-adult content bishoujo games that do have the Mature rating, like Amusement Park and Day of Love. Giving a kid Critical Point or Slave Bazaar though just isn’t very cricket.

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#3

Some games like True Love and Brave Soul could be lowered to age 16. Though for things like Slave Bazaar and such, I agree with Seishin.

#4
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
Some games like True Love and Brave Soul could be lowered to age 16. Though for things like Slave Bazaar and such, I agree with Seishin.

Not quite, sex is sex. How ever playing it under adult super vision for a minor 16 or 17 years need not be against the law. The USA buys porn for nudity then sex. People with respect for nudity like Japan need not have sex as implied with a person nude.

#5

I would lower the age to 15 actually for most of the games, and 17 for the darker themes such as rape. Ideally with parental supervision but given how parents push things off to others nowadays, perhaps have the schools teach real sex education to balance this out and parents concerns be pushed aside and have the schools really teach sexual education. I agree with perigee they have to be naive to think shielding their kids helps, since I think most parents would agree it ain’t hard to learn what to do since it is basically, (forgive me) insert tab a into slot b.

Yet it is often very hard to learn the responsibility which must go with these acts if it is not taught from a young age and starting younger people with these games is perhaps a rather direct, unique and good way to start teaching responsibility, perhaps by showing how much it seems to be lacking in some of the games, and also how if it was life there would have been repercussions, for some actions rather then the girl magically falling in love, etc. Try to get these games to be used as much for a very unique brand of learning tools as they are now for enjoyment. This won’t happen anytime soon but if it could be it would be one way to push the age limit back, sort of end around part of the objections people would raise.

Also people say it is different but I remember taking grade school trips to art museums in Philly (Philadelphia Museum of Art) and being taken on a “special touring exhibit” tour and some of that art, looking back, was at least as explicit in a sexual sense as scenes from these games but because they were by “master painters” they were art. Yet following this out does that mean if someone put captions with them of the woman gasping and asking for more and harder this would suddenly not be works of art by a “master painter” but porn?

Where does this line get drawn and why does it exist for these games but not works of art?

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-11-2004).]

#6

Yeah unfortunately here in the states you show boobies it’s almost an automatic R. So all of these games will have to be 18+.

#7

Then I still don’t see how art can get away with it, there are pictures which, granted don’t show a sexual act, but show every part of a female or male body and yet parents proudly place their children in front of it saying look at this great work of art. Why are people so hung up on sex that it makes such a huge difference with these games?

#8

It’s not so much nudity itself, it’s how it portrayed. It’s the concept, the situation, that makes it good or bad. Like they say, nude is natural, naked is grotesque.

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#9

Sex is indeed sex, but I’m thinking of the kinky aspect and how much there is in these games. True Love only has some pictures for each girl for a sex scene, and they are all consentiual (spelling?) and ‘normal’.
The same could be said for Brave Soul, only that it more pictures and is a bit more detailed. Still, in all the time that you play through the game, the sex scene is only a little bit from the rest.

#10
quote:
Originally posted by Seishin:
It's not so much nudity itself, it's how it portrayed. It's the concept, the situation, that makes it good or bad. Like they say, nude is natural, naked is grotesque.

But that is a contradiction, since they mean the same thing, no clothes means no clothes. I know what you are saying in how it is portrayed, but that's why I asked if we added sound to these "works of art" would they then become porn? The art does not change, it's portrayal does not change, we just play moans and gasps over the speakers instead of classical music. Does the artwork then become porn even though it's protrayal would only change in people's minds and not in reality?

Yes these games have sex scenes, but sooner or later "little Johnny or little Susie" is gonna have to learn it was not from a far less damaging idea of a stork dropping them, or being farmed from a cabbage patch field or whatever other lies, forgive me "comfortable euphemisms" children are told about how they came to be a baby, but it was in fact through sex. Okay it still might be argued to be different but why not teach them through games, which can be extremes at times, rather then having them learn wherever it is they have their first time since the parents won't, and the schools, at least in the U.S. don't teach jack about sex?

Yeah they hand out condoms and say don't do it (talk about a contradiction), but they don't teach about it and by the time they start handing out the condoms it is probably way too late for some people. So why not use these games as teaching tools of sorts for kids at least age 16 if not 15?

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-11-2004).]

#11

What you have to understand is that Americans are very fucked up in the head when it comes to sex. It’s the result of all the pissed off religious people fleeing Europe to live out their own fucked up purists ideas about life. People would rather have their kid watch Braveheart, which had to be toned down a bit because it originally was given an NC-17 rating, before letting them watch Boogie Nights or something. American are a very violence driven people, get rid of whatever organized religions came from the Puritans and the other religous segregates and you’ll see a complete 180 switch on the violence/sex ideas.

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#12
quote:
Originally posted by Seishin:
What you have to understand is that Americans are very fucked up in the head when it comes to sex.

Oh I know that, but my question I guess then becomes why does no one have the well guts to tell these people to fuck off, sex is natural, sex is not horrid, if they wish to believe that in religion that is fine, but they have to learn to accept others think differently (remember the roots of their nation) and then force this change?

Living here, it tires me no one has forced this change, oh there will be backlash I know, but as far as I can tell the only way to make this change is to force it, hopefully not through the ironic means of violence which is so embraced, but still forcing it seems to be the only way to get a change so why has no one with power tried?

#13

I’m surprised there isn’t more support for the idea of lowering or removing the age restriction. Sure, we all know that our guardians of public morality have this huge stick up their collective ass about anything involving s-e-x. That’s why I put it in a theoretical context: From that standpoint, things probably won’t change, given the current moral climate. But if that wasn’t a consideration….

When I read things like In its essence, it is basically porn. You think games with graphic sex scenes and whatnots should be for kids? and So all of these games will have to be 18+, it appears that some of us think age limits work and support them. Even if you do think b-games are porn - and not all of us agree - do you think restricting sales to 18+ keeps it out of the hands of post-pubescent “kids”?

Let me ask again, why not make the minimum age for b-games the same as for games rated “mature” because of their violent content? Is violence more acceptable than sex to you? Isn’t it better to allow younger players to purchase games legally than forcing them to steal? Shouldn’t we try to disociate bishoujo games from pornography in the minds of the public?

#14
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
(...)do you think restricting sales to 18+ keeps it out of the hands of post-pubescent "kids"?

Let me ask again, why not make the minimum age for b-games the same as for games rated "mature" because of their violent content? Is violence more acceptable than sex to you? Isn't it better to allow younger players to purchase games legally than forcing them to steal?

I think you are naive or just stupid if you think restricting the sales to 18+ keeps these games out of the hands of post-pubescent "kids".

By all means it is better to have the purchase them legally rather then any underhanded way that might even involve bribery to have another of the right age buy them or stealing their parents credit cards to buy one (assuming their parents basically write out a check without looking at the charges).

I am also one that would much rather have a 16 year old playing DYLHB then DOOM, as an example. One talks about (extrapolating a lot) something that does mean responsibility but also is enjoyable while helping to ensure there is life, while the other helps people quickly end virtual lives often in the name of "truth, justice and the (fill in your nation's) way".

quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
Shouldn't we try to disociate bishoujo games from pornography in the minds of the public?

This is harder, the question becomes how, and I still think looking at them as forms of art might be one path. Yes they are graphic at times, yes they have sound with them and yes you don't have to know Japanese to figure out what 'she' is saying at those moments without the translated text, nevertheless, I think we should push these as forms of art, just art of another medium a new medium a unique medium. While doing this perhaps another way push forward the games with deep stories like Crescendo, while acknowledging but slightly distancing ourselves from games like DYLHB. Mention how DYLHB games are not the entire industry, which is what a lot of people must think now when they label it all pornography, and that some of these games have beautiful artwork and stories, stories with plot, which might help in the distancing factor since I doubt most people think (and perhaps rightly so) pornograph has a plot.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-12-2004).]

#15
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
Let me ask again, why not make the minimum age for b-games the same as for games rated "mature" because of their violent content? Is violence more acceptable than sex to you? Isn't it better to allow younger players to purchase games legally than forcing them to steal? Shouldn't we try to disociate bishoujo games from pornography in the minds of the public?

... because they aren't rated mature?

The "adults only" rating is not just for explicit sex. It's for extreme violence. Granted, this is kind of a silly distinction as no Silent Hill game has ever been rated AO, nor have the GTA titles. But it does in fact exist. You can get an AO rating, theoretically; if you were to, for instance, actually show the zombies in a horror game holding realistic-looking body parts and chewing on them to heal, you'd probably be looking at an AO rating for gore.

As for whether games SHOULD be an AO rating for explicit sex, I basically agree. These games don't HAVE to show explicit sex. They voluntarily choose to do so. They could do what TV shows and R movies do - get pretty close but not actually have any sex. There are some games that I feel DO meet these requirements and SHOULD not be rated AO, and that's another story.

#16

I think another thing to consider is the second you take the sex out of these games they are no longer these games. You are selling games but you aren’t selling these games, and while I know the suggestion is not to remove the sex, it is something that I frankly think should not be done because it also does not solve the issue of how to get these games to be more widely accepted.

#17
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
As for whether games SHOULD be an AO rating for explicit sex, I basically agree.
My point is that many of them shouldn't be rated "Adults Only". A rating of "Mature" is more appropriate for those games that show only nudity and consensual sex. There is nothing in Kana or CRC that's likely to harm mature 15-17 year olds. I think that artistic depictions of sex and nudity in dramatic situations are inherently different from the standard live action video we all agree is "pornography".
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
while I know the suggestion is not [sic] to remove the sex, it is something that I frankly think should not be done because it also does not solve the issue of how to get these games to be more widely accepted.
I agree. When you log into J-List stating that you are under 18, you are only allowed to browse the Hirameki DVD games that have been "sanitized" by having certain body parts covered up. I think it's silly, but I understand why. You have to log in as 18 or older to view titles like TCI or Brave Soul. Is there a valid reason why high school "kids" can't buy a serious work like Crescendo? It's a story they could identify with and learn from in a positive way. Instead, they're being told it's "porn" and is somehow bad for them.

There's another reason I posed the age question. It seems evident that many of the posts we see are from those who are under the cutoff age. I don't think anyone should have to police the board to chase minors away, but at the same time it seems hypocritical to welcome them on the one hand, but at the same time tell them oh by the way, you're not allowed to actually see these games. If there were a consensus that the age restriction is "only for show" or that we'd be better off without it, that contradiction wouldn't exist.

#18
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
If there were a consensus that the age restriction is "only for show" or that we'd be better off without it, that contradiction wouldn't exist.

I think there are few people that would not admit that the age restrictions that are forced upon these companies are mostly for show only, since I also think few people are naive enough to think having them does any real good beyond harming legal sales of a product and perhaps getting them re-elected.

I think the contradiction also comes in where parents encourage their children to learn and freely explore, but within limits, once again like the old proverb of freedom of speech for all, but death unto he that does not think as I do. These parents want their children to learn and explore their world, often to the point of being able to discuss these issues but not experience them because somehow hearing about them is less harmful then experiencing them though how I have no clue.

Yet that still leaves how to jump that hurdle, since editing is not the answer, in getting these games as they stand with the sex in them out. Perhaps ask the parents a fair question of do they know anyone adversely harmed by learning of sex or seeing it at a 'young age'. Fair question since frankly I have yet to meet someone that was so horribly traumatized by learning about sex or seeing these types of pictures at a "young age" that it forced them to turn to a life of 'sin and vice'.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-12-2004).]

#19
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
...
There's another reason I posed the age question. It seems evident that many of the posts we see are from those who are under the cutoff age. I don't think anyone should have to police the board to chase minors away, ...

Actually, I believe this is against the rules of this board. Technically Lamuness would have to ban anyone who admitted being under 18. (Not sure if that's what would actually happen, though.)

#20
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
Actually, I believe this is against the rules of this board. Technically Lamuness would have to ban anyone who admitted being under 18. (Not sure if that's what would actually happen, though.)

Technically it is against the rules, but the burden of proof rests with Lamuness to prove they are under 18 since they would have to be idioits to admit they are after going through all the warnings about having to be over 18, to join the board.