The $90 Question (Eroge Pricing in Japan)

Japanese eroge typically sell for $90 a copy. Even for the Japanese, this is expensive. The question I wish to propose is: WHY?

Yes. Eroge is a niche market. However most doujin software is a niche market. Doujin sell for CHEAP prices ($10 to $30), and some doujin groups make quite a return (then sometimes go professional). Yes it does not make them multimillion dollar enterprises – but then there are few commercial eroge companies that can make the same claim.

Eroge have always been in the $90 range. I can show my collection of PC98 titles that have the price tag for it.

Over the years graphic and sound studio software have made game production easier and cheaper (relatively speaking). The BASIC fundamentals of what make an eroge in the 80’s is still the same as it is today (discounting innovative titles). They look and sound better of course… but at the CORE it’s an evolution of design, not revolution. Yet the prices never changed. Adding voice acting? Sure. I agree it costs money. But I doubt that really made a status quo change of such magnitude, that the prices should NEVER fell at all. Indeed having more sales from an ever growing customer base, should lower it (as traditional PC and console markets show). Some companies have tried to break the mold, and offer their titles at much lower prices for the volume selling effect (Lilith is a prime example) ¬ñ but its not an industry wide practice.

However returning to the $90 standard question: I’ve noticed how costs rarely applies to the production of the game itself. A high production gem from Leaf or Aquaplus, costs the same as a low end crapfest as those from Tactics and Vitamin. Not what commonly happens in other market industries (where high quality raises, less quality lowers; unless volume sales are factored).

Is this just more “don’t rock the boat” mentality that the Japanese are notorious for? Or is it just that eroge customers are sheep and don’t bother questioning this?

Renewal/Revival titles typically sell for much cheaper of course ($40 to $60 range)… but they are another factor… or is it? Maybe that reflects how much they should be REALLY selling them for. Put simply: I’d imagine more eroge sales - not less - if they were $50 a pop. Customers would buy twice as many!

Me I think that most Japanese goods are overpriced, not only the erogames.
My personal opinion it’s because Japan is a captive market with scarce competition from (and no real knowledge of ) foreign shops/firms, but I can be wrong.
After all, I do not even know if Japanese TV is really so bad…

http://www.jref.com/forum/archive/index … 28067.html

My view on this issue (from an armchair perspective with no real numbers to back it up) is as follows:

Games that retail at 8,800 yen (9,240 yen with tax) actually street at around 7,000 yen (6,600 - 7,800 is the common range). Breaking that 7,000 yen down:

Retailers don’t get much - maybe 1,500 yen per sale.

Distributors take a cut, I don’t know how much, let’s say 1,000.

That leaves 4,500 yen per copy. That has to pay for:

A project director
A scenario writer
A lead CG artist
Several supporting artists (colorists)
A programmer
A publicist
A graphic designer (for packaging, menus, etc.)
An accountant
Voice actors
Replication costs (disc printing, packaging, manuals, extras)
Advertising costs
Rent on any office space the company may use
Sofurin review fees

Over the term of the game’s development, typically 3-8 months. Depending on the title, some of these positions may require more than one person to fill.

Now let’s say a given game sells 10,000 units - that’s 4,500 x 10,000 = 45,000,000 yen, or 450,000 weak American dollars. Let’s say the game company has a full time staff of ten, and that they make an average of 2,500 USD a month. That’s 25,000 a month x ~6 months in development = 150,000 USD in payroll, plus bonuses = 200,000 in payroll. That leaves 250,000 USD for the voice actors (let’s say they take 80,000 of that), leaving 170,000 for replication (20,000?), advertising (20,000?), rent (28,000?), and fees (2,000), bringing the leftover to 100,000 USD.

If we stretch the imagination just a bit further, say the distributor and retailer take a larger cut, or say the game sells less than 10,000 units, and that the full time staff on the payroll is more than 10 people - that extra 100,000 evaporates pretty fast. I’m guessing companies that do pull in that sort of profit margin set a lot of it aside for a rainy day.

That’s an off the cuff analysis of the conventional “niche market” eroge production model. It breaks down, however, in the face of the truly successful franchises, both on a macro scale (Type Moon, Alice Soft, Leaf, Key, Age, Nitro+, etc.) and a micro scale (Lilith, Valkyria, other professional “soft circles”).

While players in the middle of the market charge high prices for their games because they must (they can’t recoup dev costs if they charge less, given the low volume of sales), big players charge those same prices because they can - and they become successful, profitable companies because of it. They have correspondingly higher development budgets, and some of the best companies no doubt plow a LOT of their profits back into game development, and extras (Alice Soft, how I worship the ground you walk on) instead of using it to line their pockets, but as long as they stick to the traditional ADV formula there’s a definite cap on the amount they can spend on development, beyond which sales turn into pure profit.

While the giants of the industry focus on profitability through high volume sales of full-price blockbuster titles that come out once or twice a year, upstarts at the other end have discovered enormous profitability in even higher volume sales in what amounts to eroge micropayments, with much smaller production budgets and development cycles leading to correspondingly lower prices (which spurs the higher volume of sales). Lilith is the master of this formula.


To sum up my perspective: businesses exist to make money. Profitable eroge companies make money in three ways:

  1. At the top, companies leverage the low development costs associated with the simplicity of the ADV genre and produce games that are enormously popular due to a combination of writing and character design. Their high profit margin means they can produce enhanced releases with a lot of extras, and get away with charging the same prices as the mid-range makers, who charge those prices out of necessity and keep per-unit cost as low as possible.

  2. In the middle, companies target niche markets with lower volume sales, but high prices they know the fetishists who buy their games will pay. They’re not typically able to include significant extras with their releases because they need to make the most profit possible from each unit sold. Their profitability is the most tenuous as they have the smallest user base.

  3. At the bottom, companies target niche markets with high volume, low price sales. Their rapid release schedule targeting a variety of fetishes diminishes the risk of failure of a particular title, and low prices ensure a steady revenue flow from gamers who might balk at the full price of bigger games. This seems to have emerged in recent years as the most stable business model in the eroge industry, and some industry giants have been adopting it of late to diversify and mitigate risk as they continue development of their flagship titles (the Crowd brands, Will brands, Light, Alice Soft, and to a lesser extent Nitro+ are all doing this, as are others).

In my opinion the prices charged for eroge in Japan are largely fair, and reflective of market realities - but I may be totally wrong. It would be nice if someone like Nanatuha would weigh in on this, who knows a bit more of what’s going on. ^^;

Edit: I forgot to mention another cost associated with game development, which is the one-time (occasionally repeating) capital investment in computers, software, and game engine licensing (if applicable). This is 2,000-3,000 per person (at least), which is another significant chunk for a company about to release its first game.

To boil down my theory of pricing even further, and answer “the $90 Question” directly:

Eroge in Japan cost $90 because companies in the middle can’t afford to have them cost less. Companies on top take advantage of this by reaping additional profit from higher volume sales of premium price games, and companies on the bottom take advantage of this by competing in the same niche fetish marketplace and undercutting in terms of price, speed, and development costs.

I think this analysis requires some real data like actual units sold and actual size of development team.

reads Shingo’s post

You make a lot of good points.

I tend to think that the “big boys of eroge” make more money off their endorsements than the actual games: the merchandise trinkets, artbooks, music CD, manga adaptations, anime license, etc. In the end, they earn more than a lion’s share of profit.

There’s no question that the eroge industry does make millions in Japan. It’s just really lopsided who earns it.

And while many might pump a few $$$ into R&D ¬ñ I honestly don’t think they have an entire branch or think tank that does nothing but brainstorm new innovation. More likely it’s the “circle of regulars” (the lead writer, lead programmer, lead artist… maybe lead sound) who see inspiration from the regular PC or console market, and think of a way they can copy. It’s waaaay cheaper to “reverse engineer” something, than it is to completely create something new.

Basically what I’m saying: I feel the big companies are ripping us off BIG TIME.

As for the little guys… what you say is true… but then there are ton of good quality doujin ¬ñ which are short on content and duration. But if I multiplied that content x3, then it would be about the same as a commercial release… but if I multiplied that price tag x3, it would still be less than a commercial release.

I feel that $90 (or specifically the 8800 yen tag) is not a reflection of production costs. It’s what they are charging because it’s what they have always charged, and they keep charging it without much worry because people have no choice but to pay it… because everyone else is charging the same. Quality rarely counts. In a crazy sense: there’s a monopoly on pricing.

EDIT: Removed double post (due to epic lag)

I forget where I saw this, I think I saw it in multiple places – Multiple price points are actually bad in many cases. With micropayments, for example: people won’t even bat an eye at $70.25 versis $69.99, but $.01 versus $.25 for a micropayment? All of a sudden it’s a huge difference – and it sends a signal that the $.01 product sucks, so its sales are HURT. (That is, a game that costs half as much won’t sell twice as many.)

Consider this: Games commonly are NOT priced according to quality. Neither are movies, books, CDs, or ANY kind of mass-produced product that is based entirely on entertainment content. Not least of which because everyone has different taste, but there does seem to be a fundamental reason why, for example, book publishers don’t charge an arm and a leg for books they think are really good, but heavily discount overrated crap like The Bible (Note: is a joke, please don’t freak). Movies like Snakes On A Plane could have gotten a significant boost by being offered at a discount, yet I have never even HEARD of such a thing.

So while “Why $90?” is a fair question, I do not think that it can be explained by a failure to move to nonuniform pricing. Nonuniform pricing for works of storytelling simply doesn’t exist. Books are more or less priced by page count, CDs and DVDs are essentially uniform, and console games are as well. Price uniformity is not unique to b-games, so therefore it cannot be a quirk of the b-game market; it must be explained some other way.

Also …

Game makers are small companies, and the games go out of print really quickly. I could be blowing smoke out my ass, but I understand it is not uncommon for a company to only have 2-3 titles even on sale at any given point in time. This ties into your comment on how a small few makes large sums of money, but it’s not very equitably distributed. If you only have 4 games paying your bills, you cannot really afford to say ‘oh well this game sucks, let’s discount it’.

I agree, and in that light I think everything I wrote is basically worthless. Still, I don’t think we’re ever going to get any real data from these companies, so we might as well have fun speculating.

It sounds like you’re saying something contradictory here: games make lots of money for the big guys, but much of that money doesn’t come from game sales? I think we need to address each product on its own merits for the purposes of this discussion - products derivative of the original game IP require their own production budgets and teams and are purchased separately from the game, and therefore shouldn’t factor into the overall analysis of the game’s $90 dollar price tag.

I think there IS a question whether the eroge industry makes millions or not, actually. Without real numbers it’s impossible to say, but anecdotally I’ve heard a lot more stories of failure than of mindblowing success (none of the latter, actually). I think the eroge industry is a lot like the anime industry; people in it are largely there as a labor of love, not to get rich, and are happy if they break even at the end of the day. I’ll admit that there are some major exceptions to this that have emerged recently, but I think they’re more at the so-called “doujin” end of things than the major full price makers.

I’m not talking about extensive development in most cases - the proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is the same as it was in 1988 in the case of most games on the market today. Most makers only have one or two programmers on staff for this reason - they’re just licensing existing engines or using open source software to build their games along a tried and true pattern. We know this. But why is development so constrained? I think it’s because the market is too small to support robust innovation, and not because the companies are made of miserly bastards who are trying to screw fans of their hard-earned yens. In my opinion, the best companies work wonders with the limited resources they have, and are committed to do the best they can by both the fans and their employees.

A typical Lilith game has 20-24 CG images, 2-3 voice actresses, and costs 2,100 yen. Multiply this by three and you get the lower end of a full price release, at 6,300 yen and 60-72 CGs; most full price games have more CG, and cost a bit more (6,600 - 7,800). While Lilith pays to register their games with the CSA most other similar companies do not, which saves them both time and money over full-price releases. I think it can be argued convincingly that the ratio of production resources to price remains roughly constant between most doujin releases and most major releases.

That said, I think we need to be careful not to confuse low price professionally produced games with true doujinshi. This is often confusing, as the former are often labeled as doujinshi and sold at doujin shops, and have websites that call themselves “soft circles” or “doujin games”. Increasingly these are being produced not by small independent groups but by the eroge equivalent of low price game sweatshops, where games are put on a treadmill and crapped out once a month by a team that doesn’t really care about the artistry that goes into them. On its face this looks like it’s become a hugely successful production model, and if I had to point a finger at the soulless folks who are robbing fans blind this is where I’d point it. That said, it’s hard to argue with their price points - which is precisely why they sell so well.

I think this is true, but it’s become a chicken-and-egg question: the mid-market makers have come to depend on the existing pricing structure, and build their budget projections around it for the games they produce. This bizarre monopoly on price is what lets them plan for the future, is my guess, and if prices were more fluid it would be more difficult (or at least they’d have to hire someone who knows about managing business finances, which would be about as likely as hiring an evangelist preacher to bless the game on release day).

That’s all going out the window with the advent of the low price professional revolution, though, and over the past couple of years more and more games are coming out that break the 8,800 yen price point, consistently on the lower end. I think that strata of full price games will persist for a long time, but as the market becomes more fluid and diverse it will gradually lose its iron grip.

Hooray for baseless speculation! :3

If I don’t have a reply statement to something you said, it’s because I agree and/or concede to your thinking. :wink:

Wrong idea I’m trying to express… my fault. Let me specify: it’s like major athletes such as Tiger Woods. He makes millions from his game tours. But he makes tens of millions from his Nike deals, EA Sports deals, commercial placements, etc.

Big eroge companies make $$$ off their games – they make even more from licensing it out. Before To Heart 2 was even released, there was buzz for the inevitable anime. Manga popped up only a few weeks after the games release. Toys and tshirts were out looooong before. Etc and so forth. It was a sure fire money maker based off the name and reputation of the line itself. They made profit. Is it deserved? Sure. They make quality games. Is the production cost of the game a derivative of the 8800 price tag? Seeing as how systematic it was? I doubt it.

Not if… say… Ijitte Princess whatever number their on, is also selling at 8800. Something isn’t right here… but that’s already been agreed on. I mean the cost for Starcraft 2 isn’t known yet, because Blizzard isn’t sure how much to charge per copy to make a profit. Costs are still mounting. Eroge? For most releases (other than groups like Lilith), you can make a bet for 8800).

True and agreed. However production costs of the “spin-offs” are rarely the concern of the IP holder, unless they’re doing it themselves. The IP holder already gets their $$$ up front and/or a percentage of the cut. Other than a hit on reputation (if the spin-off turns out to be crap), not much loss there ¬ñ profit potential though…

Well that can go for any dozen of businesses really. Book publishing for example, has a far more failures than success. Doesn’t mean books don’t sell millions as a whole. I fail to believe that the eroge industry itself is only making equal to or less than $999,999 per year.

Individual people, I agree. But business entities? Never. As you said, they live for profit. And if they can squeeze it out of the masses with little fuss, they’ll do it. Type-Moon is in it for the love. The broadcast company that budgeted an anime based off their work, is not.

Also there’s the “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” mentality. There’s no innovation, because the masses aren’t really demanding for it either. Traditional console or PC games, are always being pushed for each consecutive release to use the latest hardware and software advances. Eroge customer push more for more content (art, music, voice) ¬ñ but not revolutionary engine design or game play. They welcome it when it happens of course: but no demand.

Development costs are low. Production is the real chunk of it… and perhaps advertising. Using the “standardize table” for the game making process: proposal, concept design, production planning, development, testing, advertising, finalizing, release (variations occur, but it’s along those lines) – many eroge can skip huge chunks of the path (and costs), because the “cut and paste” template is already there to use.

Now I’ll admit that perhaps I’m being harsh, because my objective is as someone who has worked in the console market, but has zero experience at all with the actual eroge market. Perhaps I have a “grass is green on the other side” bias. Nevertheless, I’m not 100% kosher with the pricing methods as a customer when I take a closer peak under the hood. :wink:

Also the fact that the eroge industry is so “secretive” with their numbers is kinda suspect on me anyways. Capcom and Konami release company data sheets that reveal how much individual titles cost to produce, and profits from all sources (third part licenses and all)… You don’t see Aquaplus or Circus doing that. How big that profit to production margin is, always remains unknown. Of course Circus and Aquaplus don’t have stockholders, so they aren’t mandated to do it either.

EDIT: removed useless ranting… typos… writing faster than I’m thinking. :stuck_out_tongue:

I agree in principle with basically everything you’re saying, and I don’t think we disagree on anything fundamental - if anything it’s a question of our individual perspective as consumers, I think.

Amen to that. Your example about To Heart 2 vs. Ijitte Princess makes me think of a comparison: Region 2 Hollywood DVD releases, or even Jump anime DVD releases, vs. niche anime releases. Hollywood DVDs sell at ~$30 in Japan, whereas DVDs of anime (like the To Heart 2 anime, for example) sell for almost twice that, for just a couple of episodes on a disc. This disparity wasn’t as pronounced in the past, to my knowledge - Hollywood releases were super expensive as well, but it’s gradually come to be the case that popularity = lowering of prices.

If this applied to To Heart 2 (well, XRATED), I’d hope to see Leaf drop the price to correspond to the higher popularity the franchise enjoys, while Ijitte Princess would stay at the 8,800 mark because it needs every last yen it can get per sale. The only company I know of that does this for their major releases is Alice Soft (have I said they’re my heroes?) who’s MSRP is (slightly) lower at 8,500 yen for their flagship titles. Not much, but a token gesture that they know their games will do phenomenally well is appreciated.

I do feel a twinge in my consumer’s soul every time I buy a full price fetish game and open the box to find nothing but four page manual and a single DVD, but I buy them anyway with the hope that eventually enough other people will do the same, and the maker will be able to afford to put more extras and stuff in the box. Maybe I’m just stupid and it’ll never happen, but at least I’m helping feed artists whose work I enjoy. :frowning:

Oh, and agreed - as long as these companies remain privately held I’m guessing their financial information and sales numbers will be a jealously guarded secret. It might be time to call down the ninjas…

The way I see things right now is that there are way too many eroge companies making mediocre games trying to get their cut of the pot.

Though I may bitch about it, same here. :oops:

I even buy titles from certain companies, even if the game is something I don’t like, if only because I want them to stay in business and make more of the stuff I do like. I own waaaay too many special editions… which hurt my wallet to no end.

I spend about 10% of my annual income on eroge… that’s really insane, since only about 15% to 20% goes to my retirement fund. :lol: :expressionless: :cry:

Yea… the over saturation is mind blowing. However this isn’t just unique to eroge software. You should see the HUNDREDS of manga and console video games that never see the light of day in the West. There’s a LOT of garbage in the sea…

In the US this kind of thing can be seen with the DVD market (straight home to video). :expressionless:

Differance with oversaturation in say the take-home movie DVD market is that prices fall rapidly.

As for the $90 price tag, I believe that may becoming less of an issue as more companies also are hit up with higher prices for console games. Unlike US a lot of eroge gets ported to console, usually without h-content, but not always. Latest console games now run at 6800 and they have a higher saturation market rate. At this level, 2000 yen for a much narrower audience begins to get to the point of nessesity of raising prices on the supply & demand curve because the demand is much lower.

Now console games are of a different class, generally, but in some respects spillover technology mostly in better graphics and voicing/sound effects.

Finally it also somes to a point made up, if consumers see a game too cheap, without any outside knowledge, they think it is cheap and might therefore be less inclined to buy it. Spillover from the non-h market also applies here. If a game is too cheap compared to what is produced for mass non-h market, they consumers tend to think it’s cheap.

Neat… for 2006 an exact “units sold” listing was made through an official source (the defunct PC NEWS).

[list]Sengoku Rance (Alicesoft) - 63,634
Muvluv Alternative (Age) - 62,546
D.C. II (Circus) - 54,881
Really? Really! (Navel) - 42,280
ef -the first tale (Minori) - 40,843
Scarlett (Nekonekosoft) - 37,453
Pia carrot he youkoso!! G.O (F&C) - 36,510
Tsumashibori (Alicesoft) - 30,335
Circus Disk ~Christmas Days~ - (Circus) 29,452
Minikisu Tsuyokisu fandisk - (Candysoft) 28,519
Happiness! Relucks - (Windmill) 27,334
Yokubari Saboten - (Alicesoft) 27,302
Fullani - (Leaf) 27,251
Boy Meets Girl - (FrontWing) 27,189
Baldr Bullet Revellion - (Giga) 24,880
Minefukakiseni tayutauuta - (Eushully) 24,198
Kono aozora ni yakusoku wo - (Giga) 23,480
Summer Days - (Overflow) 23,351
Fate/Stay Night - (Type-moon) 21,910
Princess Waltz - (Pulltop) 21,725[/list]

Neato that an upcoming Peach Princess game, was a top 20 seller. Let’s hope you guys can beat the Japanese sales. 8)

Also 2006 was a VERY BAD year for eroge sales, as the top five for 2005 sold as follows:

[list]Fate/Hollow Ataraxia (Type-moon) - 154,015
To Heart 2 XRATED (Leaf) - 110,393
Yoake mae yori ruriirona (August) - 68,599
Tomoyo After ~It’s a Wonderful Life~ (Key) - 49,226
Pastel Chime Continue (Alicesoft) - 41,456[/list]

I can’t find a unit sold listing for 2007… just a list of what sold best. It seems only PC-NEWS had the connections to make an accurate listing, but I’m still hunting around. Anyways I thought these numbers might be interesting to mention here. Titles that sell over 100K are designated as mega blockbusters - quite a huge contrast to the console and PC market, where selling over 1 million units is a mega blockbuster: Final Fantasy 7 reportedly has sold well over 10 million copies since its release; The SIMS 2 is a major PC title that has sold over 15 million copies (and that’s just the “main core game” - I’m not counting the endless expansion game sales… probably would triple that number).

Thank you pirates, for ruining our best damn shot at getting quality eroge at low prices. This company CARED about its customers:

http://heiseidemocracy.com/2008/05/10/d … -industry/

Screw you all. Screw every last damn one of you.

I see the Pixy and Lilith torrents on Google everyday. This sucks…

Hobibox - parent company of DOZENS of eroge studios - has also been shutting down or cutting projects on the market. Clockup and Meteor were the most recent casualties.

This sucks hardcore…

CLOCKUP too :shock: ?!!
But they still have a site…

http://entacom.org/clockup/top.htm

…and a scheduled game you preordered:

http://entacom.org/clockup/product/rinjoku/index.htm

Aye. That’s why I thought too, but some fanboys on 2chan were discussing how their “development cycles” for recent titles is longer than usual (more likely delayed), which means they should be releasing fewer games in a year. So it’s like someone is being a dam right now… the suspicion naturally goes to Hobibox.

I personally hope its only wild speculation, but nowa days… I’m not so sure anymore. :expressionless:

I wish I knew if Hobibox is just outright closing studio groups, or reassigning them to others they still have.