The Story Writers Oughta be Shot (Spoilers)

SPOILERS

I think that Kana needed time away from Taka, not necessarily to grow as a person, but to gain a sense of individuality and independance–all of her life she had relied on Taka for everything… think about it–she couldn’t order in a fast food restaurant, she couldn’t buy her own books–if she didn’t get away from Taka for a little while, she simply wouldn’t be able to function as anything except an extension of him. She admits as much when she explains her reasons for leaving and then clings to him for support as she begins crying.

END SPOILERS

Song report: I’ve figured out the chord progression for The White Season and have begun working on a rewrite of the English lyrics. In most cases, the lyrics have to be padded, which means I have to get into the feel of the writer’s head and come up with sypathetic lyrics–not an easy task. But I’ve got a rough draft of the first “verse” finished, and some ideas for the first “bridge” and “chorus.” I also have to go back to a saved position in the game and play to an ending so that I can get the credits again for the name of the song’s writer.

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
*SPOILERS*

I think that Kana needed time away from Taka, not necessarily to grow as a person, but to gain a sense of individuality and independance--all of her life she had relied on Taka for everything... think about it--she couldn't order in a fast food restaurant, she couldn't buy her own books--if she didn't get away from Taka for a little while, she simply wouldn't be able to function as anything except an extension of him. She admits as much when she explains her reasons for leaving and then clings to him for support as she begins crying.

*END SPOILERS*


****WARNING OF SPOILERS****

Yes but I thought in part the very reason she was leaving was showing she was not always dependent on Taka. There are few people who have always been dependent on others that I think would freely strike out on their own, they would be scared silly and always find reasons to delay it, most have to be thrown to the wolves, to use an expression, to ever truly stop being dependent. So the very fact she could leave to me showed she was not dependent, and her tears were not from fear of leaving, but out of leaving one she loved deeply.

Despite the fact she has always said she felt dependent on him and was sorry he always said it was nothing and she was not a "drain" on him to the point I think she realized what he did was out of love and not because she was always depending on him. Therefore, I am not sure if the reason she left was really because she needed time away or if it was for needed time to grow.

Whichever it was, keep in mind there are also other ways to get time away from him to either have time away or to grow. Since surely the parents knew of their relationship and since they already felt guilty enough for trying to stop Taka from saving her, she could have probably gotten them to support a sort of coast to coast train trip or hot spring country tour, which would give her time away but also not be as drastic as moving away since maybe after several months of traveling alone she would be able to return no longer being dependent and having had a chance to grow through her solo travels.

Still not sure about the whole moving away to grow or needing time away being part of what is suppose to be the happiest ending. It remains one of the reasons why as happy as I was she lived in ending one, in many ways ending six is still to me at least an equally happy ending despite her death for she not only accepted her death in that ending but for everyone because of her strength shown in her writings it seemed to be at least a slightly happy ending.

*****END OF SPOILERS*****

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-11-2004).]

Yeah, well, in either case, the story writers oughta be shot…

So before you shoot them though, what type of sequel would you like them to write if you even want a sequel?

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
So before you shoot them though, what type of sequel would you like them to write if you even want a sequel?
SPOILER AHEAD
First, it must be acknowledged that no matter what kind of sequel they came up with, somebody would say they should be shot. Many - perhaps most - people are satisfied with the way things ended.

If they ever did a Kana II, though, I can think of any number of possible story lines. Since the first game was so death-oriented, they might carry on with that theme. Most obviously, Kana might still die, making the tragedy all that more poignant. Or Taka could die. Giving up a kidney does reduce your life expectancy, after all. In some ways a failed romance would even be more tragic. How about a game where you have to navigate away from unfaithfulness, loss of love or disapproval by family and society to find the one ending with true happiness?

First I agree with what you said about if there is a sequel some would not approve and find many faults with it, second I too am satisfied with the way things have ended, but that has never stopped a company from making a sequel of a game/movie/anime/novel/manga that was highly successful as a stand alone item.


SPOILERS AHEAD

I was thinking if they did a death oriented second game that it would have to be as perfect as the first or it might be a way to turn people away from it with a sort of “what again?” attitude, then again perhaps not with the powerful impact this story has had on so many people.

You did hit on the one I too think would work as an nice follow-up, the failed romance, lost love, where at least one of them still loves the other but slowly starts losing the one they love, as they slip away to perhaps another person or under pressure of the disapproval of society. Obviously this would play well if you start with the last scene from ending 1, with her just getting in the taxi and leaving. It is also not certain to me at least if the parents approve or not of Kana’s relationship with Taka already, as I have serious doubts about them not knowing, and they already hate themselves enough for trying to let her die that I don’t think personal approval or personal feelings against such a relationship they would try and hurt her again by putting a wedge between her and Taka, society on the other hand often doesn’t care about the individual’s feelings only what has been deemed proper and improper amongst a son and adopted daugther in this case. Well to have a plot that you can win by either gaining society’s approval or overcoming their disapproval, a damn the torpedoes full speed ahead, sort of ending to find “true happiness” might bring an even nicer closure to both of the games. The happy ending the way it is now is satisfying but not complete on some levels if that makes sense.

It does not stop the game from being one of the best ever, but it still leaves a lot of what if’s it might be nice to have answered, though some might saying leaving those questions up to us to answer is the best possible way to end, and maybe it is, and maybe a sequel would lessen the impact of her death or it might heighten it in many ways including through ways you mentioned.

END OF SPOILERS

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-11-2004).]

Note: I didn’t write these.
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~mattlim/kana/

Somebody on the Kana message board @ gamefaqs wrote a whole bunch of fanfics that had to do with the first ending of the game. He was as sad as I was (and probably lots of you as well) about the way the first ending turned out and wrote a bunch of stories about Taka and Kana’s relationship.

Interesting link, thank you for it, still would be nice if they can do it right, and that is asking a lot with what they have to live up to, but if they can make it so maybe see a sequel of one of the best games ever rather then another along the lines of DYLHB or Secret Wives Club.

I like the ending where she dies. It’s bitter-sweet and couldn’t end any other. You know there’s bad endings then there’s sad endings. Bad endings to me are where the ending is well bad and could have been better or something could have been done differently while as a sad ending is when it can’t end any other way. I mean like the ending is sad but you’re satisfied with it there was nothing you could do to make it better because its perfect the way it is in a sense. Some examples that I can think of are the two last books written by Thomas Hardy: Tess of the d’Ubervilles and Jude The Obscure. The endings were both really sad but in a sense happy and that’s the feeling I got with the ending with Miyu’s death.

I tend to agree with the attitude that a good sequel would be hard to come up with–I’d hate to see the emotional impact of Kana get belittled by a poor follow-up. On the other hand, I’d hate to have to go shoot the story writers again…

POTENTIAL SPOILERS

If I did see a sequel, I think that the elements that would have to be in it would be: 1) a conflict of love interest for Kana–can she remain true in her heart to Taka, or, once out on her own, would she find herself drawn to another romance… perhaps Yuta would become more interesting to her without the overbearing presence of Taka in her life; 2) the same thing for Taka–perhaps he would have to re-evaluate his relationship with Yumi once he no longer had the overpowering presence of Kana in his life; 3) the idea that, theoretically anyway, Taka and Kana are destined for each other, but it is a fragile thing and easily shattered by the realities of life; 4) in order to put it on par with the original Kana, there would have to be the threat of overwhelming tragedy. I don’t have any real ideas here, but if I were a story writer looking to get shot, I’d do something–as an example–like: if Taka chose to pursue a relationship with Yumi, Kana couldn’t bear the sense of rejection, and commits suicide, burdening Taka with a lingering sense of guilt over his decision to abandon her in the end. Just some thoughts…

NO MORE SPOILERS

SPOILER WARNING

Oh yes, I agree entirely. As I said, I felt horrible for Kana in Ending 2, precisely because she wasn’t prepared for the idea of dying. And at any point in the non-intellectual endings where she felt pain and repeated something the doctor had told her about ‘growing pains’, I just welled up!

I don’t think there’s much room for a game sequel to Kana. I think most of the major obstacles in Kana and Taka’s lives have been surmounted by the time they get to Ending 1. (There are a couple of obstacles left, of course, but nothing that would make a particularly rivetting gameplay experience.)

END SPOILERS

I’m going to guiltily stick my hand up here and admit that I’m the one who wrote those fanfics that ryan724 was talking about. After reading the passionately held opinions of the posters here, I’m a bit reluctant to do so, actually. =)

But hey, we all have our own views on the game, and we don’t have to agree. Differences of opinion make the world go round.

Wolfson: the lyrics are by Sara Yajima and the music is by ‘Hechima’ (only credit given).

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
[b]SPOILER WARNING

Of course you know it is not his real sister right but his step-sister? That does change it slightly besides even with that part is it not possible to ignroe one aspect of something and still have an enjoyable time playing it? Kind of like ignoring the people munching popcorn sitting next to you at the movies and still enjoy the movie? Since it is not his blood relation sister?


END SPOILER WARNING[/b]


I know they're not related by blood, but it doesn't really change things. Family is as much a state of mind as it is genetics; if they're not related by blood, the main character certainly don't know it until late in the game when he's already gone pretty far with Kana. Even if they're not REALLY related, which is the copout that nearly every game takes so that things don't get too weird, he's still made that leap where he's going to get some whether she's a relative or not. Some people can handle someone making that jump, for dramatic purposes or because the twist eases the weirdness of the situation (or maybe despite the twist, if you know what I mean) and then maybe the story works better for them.

Alternatively you have, say, Gibo, where the incest factor isn't really that weird because the main character has only known the woman for a couple of days and clearly doesn't accept her or her daughter as actual family members. Of course if you've seen the secret Gibo ending that pretty much goes in the toilet... I actually kind of appreciate that they had the balls to do that, even if it's really disturbing.

Then you have Crescendo, where Ayame's scenario lets you make choices during an important flashback, effectively altering the present so that you can choose whether Ryo and Ayame see each other as siblings or lovers, and it works pretty well either way, although I think the "siblings" path works much better.

The point is that just saying "oh, she's/I'm adopted so it's not really wrong" doesn't necessarily make it all that right. But as always, this is just my opinion and I've seen that nasty exploding-head, girl-in-a-suitcase, gooey-egg-laying Uziga "artwork" and laughed at it, so I probably shouldn't be talking about what's right or wrong.

I guess it's possible, if I ever find the game, that I could go back into it knowing there are some parts of the story that don't branch and the game would be considerably less frustrating. I'll look into it.

quote:
Originally posted by Darkling:
I'm going to guiltily stick my hand up here and admit that I'm the one who wrote those fanfics that ryan724 was talking about.
Hey, I thought you did a great job and really enjoyed them. So when will you publish the final chapters?

LOL, when I’ve written them! I’m currently undecided as to how many more there are going to be - either two or three. (First it was a seven-episode series, then I decided to be ruthless and cut it back to six, and now I’m veering towards seven again).

But I wouldn’t expect anything until next weekend, at the very earliest. I actually have work to go to at the moment. shudder

I’ve only read the first chapter so far, but it looked like they were well written–I plan on going back and reading the rest at my leisure, since I have the next couple of days off. I wouldn’t worry about admitting to being the author–just because there’s a debate raging over preferred endings (in a lot of ways, ending 6 is probably the most fulfilling one)… I think everyone here can appreciate a good story.

quote:
Originally posted by Darkling:
Wolfson: the lyrics are by Sara Yajima and the music is by ‘Hechima’ (only credit given).

Heh… I read this after I had already gone through the trouble of cycling through an ending and waited through the game credits to write down the names Thanks anyway, I should have figured that you’d have known that information. By the way, I’ve almost completed the first draft of the English adaptation of the lyrics… I think it’s going pretty well, all things considered–my biggest concern is trying to keep the feel of the song while keeping the scanning consistent with the Japanese lyrics. In some places, it just won’t work, but that’s life, I suppose–it’s close enough that it shouldn’t pose a big problem.

quote:
Originally posted by rooker20:
The point is that just saying "oh, she's/I'm adopted so it's not really wrong" doesn't necessarily make it all that right. But as always, this is just my opinion and I've seen that nasty exploding-head, girl-in-a-suitcase, gooey-egg-laying Uziga "artwork" and laughed at it, so I probably shouldn't be talking about what's right or wrong.

First off please clarify your Gibo point if you can it sounds like a slight contradiction where if they have only known each other two days and know they are not blood related it is okay otherwise not, though it might be my misreading.

**************POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILERS*******************

It also does not necessarily or automatically make it wrong either, society is controlled by a narrow sense of right and wrong, so narrow at times it fears learning it might fall under what is considered but might not in fact be wrong and not give a flying crap.

The thing I have with anyone being so against the adopted or step, or whatever non blood relation sibling you can come up with having a relationship with another is in part because any arguments about genetics can be removed. Yes family might in fact be a state of mind, hence why animals are often considered children or siblings, but does that mean if you have grown up next door to a girl that has basically been thought of by you as your kid sister even though she is part of another family, that one day is suddenly seen as something else entirely by you as you are by here, that anything you do with her is wrong? Technically she is family, in your and her state of mind, but not by any other terms is she family. So is that relationship wrong?

Personally there is a reason I don't mind the way they do it in Kana, and Crescendo though oddly Gibo disturbs me more but that has more to do with the fact she is married then any other relationship. My reason is this, if you meet the one that is your step, adopted, whatever, sister on the streets as a stranger, once again no blood relationship, no one would blink twice at your getting together, but the second they see that meeting and you add the word "step, or adopted, sister" well now it's as close to a bank robbery as you can come without actually robbing the bank. You are no less or more "strangers" in a genetic sense, but suddenly society gets the mood to tell others how to live because you add the word sibling, after something that indicates non genetic ties. Perhaps my main problem is what was said, society is trying to tell two people that are essentially strangers how to live, when if they had met as strangers on the street society likely would have given their blessing for a happy union.

Genetically if objections are raised fine that is both understandable and reasonable since there are proven reasons, genetically to show why such a relationship is dangerous. Yet if they are in a non-genetic relationship in any format but perhaps especially within a fiction format, I continually fail to see reasonable objections to it's existance, for now just within that fiction format, beyond perceptions people hold of how things should be, keeping in mind simply because someone thinks something should be someway does not mean it has to be that way.

***********END POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILERS****************

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-12-2004).]

SPOILER WARNING*

quote:
Originally posted by Darkling:
SPOILER WARNING

I don’t think there’s much room for a game sequel to Kana. I think most of the major obstacles in Kana and Taka’s lives have been surmounted by the time they get to Ending 1. (There are a couple of obstacles left, of course, but nothing that would make a particularly riveting gameplay experience.)


Except for the fact of their love falling apart fading which always seems to be part of some games and a big seller in movies, books, manga, and something that often has to be overcome in almost all formats of media these days. As others have mentioned that would perhaps be the most tragic, say Kana does at least think about taking her own life and Taka has to try to overcome her suicide or her attempts. Why would she you ask, maybe because she moved away and that decision by her slowly started to erode the relationship with Taka that had she stayed would have lasted. Since she was now away and no longer in and out of the hospital and on a basic death watch, Taka has a chance to see her and Yumi better, apologies greatly to Yumi as he starts to see her as the better choice and in Kana’s eyes betrays her.

The way I see it there are many more possible riveting trials if done correctly they can face which could lead Kana to think death might have been better since she would have died with at least the illusion of the eternal love of Taka and then as part but not all of the game have her overcome such thoughts. That would be hard hitting to many, this girl has just fought to live, dies 5 out of 6 times, is seemingly happy when last we left her and now is thinking perhaps of taking her own life, with an opening like that you might get a riveting game, maybe it would be equal to the first.

At least that is my thinking that there are many more trials they can encounter especially the way the game ended, it was not tied up in a nice little bow of them living together happily ever after. Aside from the fan fiction we really don’t see them “20 years later” and see a happily married couple with children of their own or something to that happy ending standard. The way the game ended it left the door wide open for such betrayal, heartbreak and chances to have to overcome thoughts of death, especially for Kana who it seems has always loved Taka and would take it real hard if he did leave her for Yumi, now that he had a chance to see both without death hanging over Kana’s head his feelings could easily change as he realizes some of the love he felt for Kana was more fear of losing the chance to be with her then actual love, if that makes sense.

Personally I would like to think along happier lines since with the game the way it was they both deserve a happy ending beyond the point they leave it in ending one which is a bittersweet moment, however, when talking about sequels the door was left open for another tearjerker game that might not end as happily or might end much more happily leaving no question they are going to live “happily ever after” in a non-cheesy non-Disney sense.

END OF SPOILERS*

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-12-2004).]

It’s mostly a matter of perceptions and opinions. Some people are bothered by it and some people aren’t.

MINOR SPOILERS FOR A COUPLE OF GAMES

The simple fact of the matter is that it is a traditional staple of Japanese literature and drama to have the “forbidden” brother/sister romance which turns out to be “not-so-forbidden” because either he or she is not truly related to the family because they came from some friend of the family who suffered some tragedy in the distant past, etc, etc. Thus it is bound to crop up in serious bishoujo at some point or another, and if one is playing the games in an effort to find “dramatic” stories, one will have to expect to run across that plot line periodically. The only way to avoid it is to stay to lighter bishoujo, and even then, I’m not sure that I’d garuntee that it wouldn’t crop up

IF NOTHING’S BEEN SPOILED BY NOW, NOTHING WILL BE

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
It's mostly a matter of perceptions and opinions. Some people are bothered by it and some people aren't.

*MINOR SPOILERS FOR A COUPLE OF GAMES*

The simple fact of the matter is that it is a traditional staple of Japanese literature and drama to have the "forbidden" brother/sister romance which turns out to be "not-so-forbidden" because either he or she is not truly related to the family because they came from some friend of the family who suffered some tragedy in the distant past, etc, etc. Thus it is bound to crop up in serious bishoujo at some point or another, and if one is playing the games in an effort to find "dramatic" stories, one will have to expect to run across that plot line periodically. The only way to avoid it is to stay to lighter bishoujo, and even then, I'm not sure that I'd garuntee that it wouldn't crop up [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

*IF NOTHING'S BEEN SPOILED BY NOW, NOTHING WILL BE*


***MINOR SPOILERS***

In terms of lighter games it exists in at least the first DYLHB or maybe more so since one is actually a cousin of the PC I think, anyway, it is matter of perceptions, but within fiction, or perhaps even more so within reality since that does not have to follow a given format, is it not important to abandon most fixed perceptions and judge as much as possible on a case by case basis?

Also in thinking about the games it does seem some of the more dramatic moments involve someone that is seemingly brother and sister but then suddenly is not blood related, Crescendo, Kana and in perhaps less dramatic but same light even the older game Gloria fits this mold to a point.

***END OF MINOR SPOILERS***

I think you have to consider the case of Taka and Kana carefully before passing judgement on whether their relationship is really incestuous.

It may be a cheap plot device, but Kana is adopted, so there can’t be any genetic complications. Although they call each other brother and sister, the circumstances of their home life were far from typical. Kana is in the hospital most of the time. She doesn’t have the usual family experience growing up. Taka’s feelings for her differed from that of an older brother right from the beginning.

If they had been raised in next door houses and played with each other every day since childhood, I don’t think there would be any objections to a romance later in life. If one set of parents had to leave their child in the care of the other parents for a period of time, that would probably still be OK. At what point does this cultural taboo come into play?

I’m not an advocate for sibling love affairs, but a relationship in which two people care and show affection for one another bothers me less than one in which one person is a sadistic brute who tortures and dominates the other. Some fans [not accusing anyone here] are revolted by the idea of incest, yet have no problem with nonconsensual acts because they are, after all, just fantasy. We live in a funny society.