One thing I dont get about the Japanese is, since I seen so many people like anime in USA, USA has a huge potential market for them. Yet they fail miserably in translating so many of the good stuff for such a huge market. Take a lot of these games for example. 5 years ago or even 10 years ago, I think people agree that there is virtually almost no translation been made. I find it very ‘tiring’ to read all those Japanese stuff and hunting for the English version.
I dont know about most people, but in my opinion these kind of game, just pressing the mouse blindly without knowing what leads where saps away 70% of the fun. So now the question to the people, why is this happening though? I dont get it.
Um, this topic has pretty much been covered in the ‘Where are the in-demand games?’ thread, just a little way down the list.
http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002396.html
What it boils down to is that the market for English-translated bishoujo games is so small that the companies translating them generally can’t afford to release huge numbers of games. There simply wouldn’t be enough people buying them to make it financially viable.
[This message has been edited by Darkling (edited 01-03-2006).]
quote:
Originally posted by arion2000:
USA has a huge potential market for them.
Sure. That potential has just been proven by the fact that G-Collections first felt it necessary to invent "Virtual Mate" and then went down the drain nonetheless. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
While apparently anime sell good enough for keeping their companies afloat, the software-market seems to work a little bit differently...
quote:
Originally posted by arion2000:
Take a lot of these games for example. 5 years ago or even 10 years ago, I think people agree that there is virtually almost no translation been made.
Okay, let's take a look into the past:
Five years ago (2001): I think that was the time when Peach Princess started with "X-Change". Back then, there were already plenty of C's games available, for example Fatal Relations, Glo*Ri*A, The Maid's Story and my beloved EVE burst Error, as well as Desire and DiviDEAD.
Now, ten years ago is 1996. That means than Win95 has then just appeared and took over the peole who formerly had Win3.1 or Win3.11-PCs. Back then, the japanese companies themselves weren't too hooked onto the typical western PCs and released mainly for other hardware-platforms, for example the legendary NEC-PC98. Thus making those games available for western customers wouldn't "just" have been a job of translating and optional demosaicing, but even a port to another hardware and OS!
Nonetheless, at some point between 1996 and 2001 (probably after Win95 was established and also came in a japanese version that added the japanese market to the Gates-empire) there were also the first attempts for releasing japanese games to the western market. One of the most famous failures was Princess Maker2 than was cancelled during its beta-phase and later became available in this version in a, well lacking a better word let's call it an obscure manner on the web.
Other games from that period of time that were officially released and sold were:
- Season of the Sakura
- Three sister's story
- Runaway City
- May Club
- Nocturnal Illusion
- True Love
- Paradise Heights (1+2)
- Time stripper Mako-chan
- Ring Out
- Knights of Xentar
- Mad Paradox
with the latter two of them even being RPGs - what apparently didn't make them more profitable either!
So, in the end then the market wasn't able to keep the companies afloat and thus they went under or just stopped their localizations for the english market.
Again, the failure of the Princess Maker2-localizing project is particulary a shame because the company behind that game was GAINAX and thus the company who holds the rights for Neon Genesis Evangelion and all its merchandize (like for example Ayanami raising project) already has a VERY BAD experience with the western market - and that might also have been a signal for the other japanese companies: the western market isn't ready for our games yet!
quote:
Originally posted by arion2000:
I find it very 'tiring' to read all those Japanese stuff and hunting for the English version.
What exactly do you mean by that?
If you are able to "read the japanese stuff", why do you have to "hunt for the english version"?
Even more: Why "hunt"? Either the english localization of a game exist or it doesn't. If it exists then you can buy it here and if not then there is no point in "hunting" at all!
quote:
Originally posted by arion2000:
I dont know about most people, but in my opinion these kind of game, just pressing the mouse blindly without knowing what leads where saps away 70% of the fun.
Perhaps you will enjoy these games more if you also try to figure out the characters and __READ__ the text then? Because in most games, the effects of the options are actually quite obvious. Particulary in games like Kango Shicyauzo2, Slave Pageant and Idols galore...
quote:
Originally posted by arion2000:
So now the question to the people, why is this happening though? I dont get it.
Because the companies are interested in MAKING money, not LOSING it. Take a look at what has already happened here with this market's "big potential" (particulary the recent breakdown of G-Collections) and then put yourself into the shoes of the manager of a japanese b-gaming company: Would you bet your money on developing this market that is still just a nieche and already ridden with piracy or would you instead put efforts into securing your share of the market in your home-country that has already proven reliable and kept your company afloat for ages so far?
... and thus we rather should show our respect to the companies that did and still do this nonetheless instead of lashing out at the ones who don't for actually quite understandable reasons!
EDT:
Straightened out a few things
[This message has been edited by Unicorn (edited 01-04-2006).]
quote:
Again, the failure of the Princess Maker2-localizing project is particulary a shame because the company behind that game was GAINAX and thus the company who holds the rights for Neon Genesis Evangelion and all its merchandize (like for example Ayanami raising project) already has a VERY BAD experience with the western market - and that might also have been a signal for the other japanese companies: the western market isn't ready for our games yet!
In the end, the game was never released, and the translating firm didn't belong to Gainax, so I doubt it really gave a bad sign to anyone.
I dunno. After all, it’s impossible GAINAX didn’t know someone was trying to release one of their games, translated. Probably they did, and saw what improdutive market we were.
And if i remember well, Hobibox-Europe was trying to translate and release bgames from big companies too, like Digital Monkey (GSW-Sakigake) and Age-Soft (this one), but they went bankrupt first.
We lost/wasted all our big chances.
[This message has been edited by Peter Gilis (edited 01-04-2006).]
Actually, I just researched what really happened back then with “Princess Maker2” because I realized that I didn’t know enough about the details and made some assumptions.
So, I’d like to share the results od my research:
An interview with the person who started the localization project back then and the full story of the project’s rise and demise written by the same person.
So it seems like this time it was indeed not as usual, and thus I chose with Princess Maker2 a popular but bad example.
quote:
I dunno. After all, it's impossible GAINAX didn't know someone was trying to release one of their games, translated. Probably they did, and saw what improdutive market we were.
They can't make any judgement on the market, since the game never reached any stores. The company that was going to publish it went bankrupt.
Congratulations on posting post 44500, Unicorn! [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
As a side note, the view of this forum has just decreased to 3 topics!
Hmm after reading what Darkling mentioned, it seems like the software part the market in Japan alone is more feasible than US alone. I am not lashing out by the way, that wasnt my intention. What I meant is, if this phenomenon were to continue eventually they would pull out their production in US altogether or the release of the titles will be really slow.
Why bother losing money like you people mentioned, when you already secure a market in Japan alone. So I was thinking what can they do to improve the situation. It almost felt like the Japanese society has trouble to cater to what the foreign markets need. Like one of the forum I read with regards to artist and mosaic. It seems like as if they purposely have extra cost in order to discouragre new entry in foreign market. Or did I perceive the situation wrong?
By the way, when I said tiring of reading Japanese, I mean I am totally clueless and cant read at all , I was being sarcastic.
Even if the choices are pretty linear and things like that, picture alone without essence still doesnt cut it at least for me. But that is my opinion, what do you people think?
There’s a high barrier to entry and a low perceived return - the US market is not nonexistent, but it’s so much smaller than the Japanese one that it makes more sense for them to spend their time developing NEW titles for the Japanese market than dealing with all the tangles involved in setting up a business relationship that will in the end give them very little money.
Now, it would be nice if the japanese games companies could put their older titles into some sort of rights clearinghouse that would facilitate selling off to foreign companies at a cheap price.
This would still not enable us to get the games we really want, as this sort of arrangement would only be valuable for titles that were no longer being actively sold/promoted in the primary market. But it could increase the amount of games available. Tons of people would happily pitch in a bit of money/time towards the translation of ANCIENT/nonprofitable games if their source were made available cheaply.
For the most part, though, the Japanese companies are never going to be interested in giving us their latest and greatest until there is a market to support it. Buy what’s available, try to increase the market, and support local producers!
The problem isn’t that there isn’t a market for these types of games…the problem is that the market is largely ignorant of the genre. The difference between here and japan is that in japan these types of games are considered normal and every day. I would say that they would consider a dating sim the same way they would consider the next sims game. However, in the US there is a very large portion of the population that don’t even know what bishoujo is.
So the thing is this, if people like us ever want a larger portion of translations then someone has got to not only advertise and market but largely educate the people who might be interested in these types of games. And the catch is that to get that level of exposure and advertising costs a crapload of money. Until a major game company is willing to go out on a limb and release one of these on the ps2 AND have it do well at market people won’t ever consider it a real genre of game in the US.
So in conclusion, it is likely we will never get to play half of the games we want to. We can sit and discuss it all day but it’s pretty basic business. I work in an EB Games, but in my store I would wager that MAYBE 2% of the people who walk in my store have even heard of a bishoujo game.
So here is what I would suggest:
first, make a new name for the genre…maybe even just the conventional term “dating sim”. Then badger…I mean write to some of the game companies about a fairly neutral port of a japanese game. Really do the research on what would have a real chance at becoming a new hit (read katamari) and go to a company that has been willing to take chances in the past and put them in touch with Peter if anyone shows even the slightest bit of interest.
Now, that’s about as good a chance as winning the lottery and starting your own translation company…but if you really want to try you have to take some real time (more than I have spent in the last few minutes) and think it through like a business.
It’s a damn shame that a game like “the guy game” which isn’t a game at all, nor is it enjoyable on any level gets exposure in magazines, albeit the exposure was to tell people it was terrible, for the most part, and that these games don’t get exposure. I really hope Western culture will move away from thinking any sort of video game media is purely for kids. So many people in charge just will not acknowledge that more people in the age range of 18-30 are buying games than kids now anyhow. But until the leaders of western countries change there stand point on this, by and large most corps will not support these games.
quote:
Originally posted by Aithos:
The problem isn't that there isn't a market for these types of games...the problem is that the market is largely ignorant of the genre. (...), in the US there is a very large portion of the population that don't even know what bishoujo is.
I've asked the same question in the past, with (almost) no success, but... do you have USA/Canada based magazines catering to H-games fans?
Heck, Italy is relatively small both in population and internal market, and even so still manages to support a few (2-3) magazines almost exclusively devoted to Japanese erogames (this month, for example, my preferred magazine, GX, even includes a free copy of Viper GTS -Japanese version, of course-). Besides, how big is the English market of "hentai anime"? H-games and H-"cartoons" cater to the same fans, in my opinion.
Off the bat I would think, most of the US consumer prefer the games like RPG, strat and first person shooter type. Would it be the reason bishoujo games has limited interactive capability? I mean all these while you choose
1) doing A, 2) doing B these kind of interface. So far they hardly have anything more real time like or more interactive do they? The most interactive ones I played before, long long time ago, in Chinese version, is called, Gods back in the 90’s or late 80’s. I wonder anyone heard of that before. It is like Simcity like, except you choose a deity which is you, and decide to spread your influence over 20 maps (like those mission campaign type) competing with other deities. So somewhere down the line you battle other deities, grab some wench to satisfy yourself (hentai part), items of powers and magic etc. U get the idea. Havent seen anyone develop a game something like that for a long long time. If they do something like this do you people think it would be less ‘boring’ and more interesting for the US market? What you guys think?
I also noticed that the Japanese culture do include erotic stuff and sex stuff. So these games can survive in Japan but not in US. Although US is an open society than most around the world, Japanese culture is so into sex and eros until they write about it, show it on TV and even play about it. So not really surprised these games do better in Japan and only Japan alone.
Well, atleast in America, there is some sort of ‘Market’ for Bishoujo Games. Over here in Britain, it is virtually unheard of and I do believe there are some prohibations generally down to European Union law but I might be mistaken. I was interested in the Italian magazine though, hmmmmm…
I do not know much about this since I only play Bishoujo Games but there is one solution I can think of at the moment. Learn Japanese and move to Japan is your only best bet. But I really do hope that in the future, maybe, just maybe, there will be more interested and hopefully, some sort of influence can be brought into Britain in particular, America too.
I think though if Princess Maker was translated, that would do quite well, I do believe that there is a large number of people around the world that would be anchoring to play such a game, so an English-translated series updated to modern day operating system, featuring all four games in one pack, I do think it would indeed be a good hit. Afterall, how many websites do you see for fans of say Seasons of the Sakura, The Three Sisters Story or even Runaway City about in comparison to Princess Maker 2? I haven’t seen one but I have seen alot for Princess Maker 2. Still, who knows, it might be a step in the right direction, but alas, it is all about ‘zee money’ at the end of the day.
quote:
Originally posted by Ksim3000:
Well, atleast in America, there is some sort of 'Market' for Bishoujo Games. Over here in Britain, it is virtually unheard of and I do believe there are some prohibations generally down to European Union law but I might be mistaken. I was interested in the Italian magazine though, hmmmmm........
Therefore, I suppose that similar magazines aren't published in Britain. It's a pity, because they are the best medium for spreading knowledge of erogames, in my opinion (me, too, I've started this hobby only after reading their reviews -and I'm an anime/manga fan since 1978-).
I must admit that Italy has a fairly relaxed attitude towards sex, however, and this has surely boosted the sales (even in the past; the Italian porno comics of 1960's and 1970's, for example, were uniformly of low quality -the h-genre was considered just the initial training ground for young comic-strip writers aspiring to "higher" and more lucrative jobs-, but they were also widespread and shockingly explicit -maybe a sure ticket for the jail if published in 1960-70's USA, or contemporary Japan-. Only the advent of videotapes and Internet has killed them).
Regarding GX, you can give it a try, of course, but remember that a)it's written in Italian, "boasts" only 50 pages (the quality level is high, however -the editorial staff is a Italian-Japanese mix-) and its price is 7.50 Euro, and b)I don't know where you can buy a copy if you live in England.
quote:
Originally posted by Baldo:
[quote] Originally posted by Ksim3000:
[b]Well, atleast in America, there is some sort of 'Market' for Bishoujo Games. Over here in Britain, it is virtually unheard of and I do believe there are some prohibations generally down to European Union law but I might be mistaken. I was interested in the Italian magazine though, hmmmmm........
Therefore, I suppose that similar magazines aren't published in Britain. It's a pity, because they are the best medium for spreading knowledge of erogames, in my opinion (me, too, I've started this hobby only after reading their reviews -and I'm an anime/manga fan since 1978-).
I must admit that Italy has a fairly relaxed attitude towards sex, however, and this has surely boosted the sales (even in the past; the Italian porno comics of 1960's and 1970's, for example, were uniformly of low quality -the h-genre was considered just the initial training ground for young comic-strip writers aspiring to "higher" and more lucrative jobs-, but they were also widespread and shockingly explicit -maybe a sure ticket for the jail if published in 1960-70's USA, or contemporary Japan-. Only the advent of videotapes and Internet has killed them).
Regarding GX, you can give it a try, of course, but remember that a)it's written in Italian, "boasts" only 50 pages (the quality level is high, however -the editorial staff is a Italian-Japanese mix-) and its price is 7.50 Euro, and b)I don't know where you can buy a copy if you live in England.
[/b] [/quote]
Thankyou for that information, I am indeed quite interested in the magazine itself, I am surprised out of all European countries, it would be Italy to be the one releasing it, I always thought perhaps more in Sweden where the laws for sexual content over there, I believe, is more 'relaxed' aswell. I wish I could read Italian though but alas, I cannot. Still, on most pages, are there alot of pictures, etc? Really beautiful, flashy pictures? If I cannot read, the pictures always prove to be more entertaining. Also, I did used to collect a Japanese Animation magazine from Japan, all in Japanese of course but it was the pictures that attracted me to it.
quote:
Originally posted by Ksim3000:
Thankyou for that information, I am indeed quite interested in the magazine itself, I am surprised out of all European countries, it would be Italy to be the one releasing it, I always thought perhaps more in Sweden where the laws for sexual content over there, I believe, is more 'relaxed' aswell. I wish I could read Italian though but alas, I cannot. Still, on most pages, are there alot of pictures, etc? Really beautiful, flashy pictures? If I cannot read, the pictures always prove to be more entertaining. Also, I did used to collect a Japanese Animation magazine from Japan, all in Japanese of course but it was the pictures that attracted me to it.
It's for hystorical reasons. As I've said before (read my posts here), Italy was the first European nation happily "conquered" by Japanese cartoons (1978) and comics (1989 -the first manga printed in the "Japanese way", from right to left, is dated 1995-). Not coincidentally, Hobibox chose Rome for its European branch (GX was originally produced by Hobibox Europe for advertising its products, but at least another similar magazine (PlayX) already existed -since 1999, if I'm not mistaken-).
Unfortunately, even Italy "boasts" its share of vocal bigots, and this generated an unusual situation for the Japanese H-genre in Italy. In fact, the various (present and past) governments, choosing not to disappoint anyone (and gaining more money in the process), simply decided to quadrupled the taxes on ALL the porno "merchandise". Therefore, Italy is an haven for otaku fans, but a very difficult market for an aspiring H-anime/manga/game producer (and this policy generated LOTS of piracy, too).
HOWEVER, because the original H-material from Japan is censored, this taxation doesn't apply against it, and this permits a)free import from Japan (just remember that the Italian Customs charge "only" 20% of the total value on videogames, the highest in Europe -do you understand my passion for downloadable games, now?-), and b)the continued existence of our H-games magazines.
GX is the best one among them, but it remains just a VERY reduced version of the famous Japanese eromagazines (Tech Gian, for example). Yeah, it contains images, doujin games, videos and other stuff, but it is not comparable to the Japanese magazines.
quote:
Originally posted by Baldo:
[quote] Originally posted by Ksim3000:
[b]Thankyou for that information, I am indeed quite interested in the magazine itself, I am surprised out of all European countries, it would be Italy to be the one releasing it, I always thought perhaps more in Sweden where the laws for sexual content over there, I believe, is more 'relaxed' aswell. I wish I could read Italian though but alas, I cannot. Still, on most pages, are there alot of pictures, etc? Really beautiful, flashy pictures? If I cannot read, the pictures always prove to be more entertaining. Also, I did used to collect a Japanese Animation magazine from Japan, all in Japanese of course but it was the pictures that attracted me to it.
It's for hystorical reasons. As I've said before (read my posts here), Italy was the first European nation happily "conquered" by Japanese cartoons (1978) and comics (1989 -the first manga printed in the "Japanese way", from right to left, is dated 1995-). Not coincidentally, Hobibox chose Rome for its European branch (GX was originally produced by Hobibox Europe for advertising its products, but at least another similar magazine (PlayX) already existed -since 1999, if I'm not mistaken-).
Unfortunately, even Italy "boasts" its share of vocal bigots, and this generated an unusual situation for the Japanese H-genre in Italy. In fact, the various (present and past) governments, choosing not to disappoint anyone (and gaining more money in the process), simply decided to quadrupled the taxes on ALL the porno "merchandise". Therefore, Italy is an haven for otaku fans, but a very difficult market for an aspiring H-anime/manga/game producer (and this policy generated LOTS of piracy, too).
HOWEVER, because the original H-material from Japan is censored, this taxation doesn't apply against it, and this permits a)free import from Japan (just remember that the Italian Customs charge "only" 20% of the total value on videogames, the highest in Europe -do you understand my passion for downloadable games, now?-), and b)the continued existence of our H-games magazines.
GX is the best one among them, but it remains just a VERY reduced version of the famous Japanese eromagazines (Tech Gian, for example). Yeah, it contains images, doujin games, videos and other stuff, but it is not comparable to the Japanese magazines.[/b] [/quote]
Ah I see, well thankyou for telling me about that anyway, I never knew that Italy was a 'haven' for Japanese Animation and Manga. In Britain, I haven't seen not even a magazine on the shelves and the Animation you can buy is tucked somewhere underneath a shelf in a music shop that sells other entertainment items, so it is indeed incredibly basic.
I have one more question if you are okay with that? Well, I was wondering, if Italy is one of the "Otaku Havens" in Europe, is it quite common to be able to purchase heavy amounts of Manga and Animation in shops? And are such good availble in most shops or just a few large brand ones? Even Manga is unheard of here, I purchase the majority of mine from Amazon, funnily enough.
There’s plenty of manga in England, unless the bookstores are really weird where you are - places I go, both the traditional bookstores and the comic shops carry it.
(The comic shop also carries some traditional european erotic/pinup art, but generally not hentai.)
I shop at Amazon because it’s convenient, not because it’s my only option.
quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
There's plenty of manga in England, unless the bookstores are really weird where you are - places I go, both the traditional bookstores and the comic shops carry it.(The comic shop also carries some traditional european erotic/pinup art, but generally not hentai.)
I shop at Amazon because it's convenient, not because it's my only option. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
Which part of England do you reside in, if you don't mind me asking? I reside in Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire and I cannot find anything with Manga at all in the book shops, not even the traditional ones.
[This message has been edited by Ksim3000 (edited 01-15-2006).]