Are we getting another dark-themed game?

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#21

I don’t think you’ve grasped what the “Dark Side” truly is, my young Apprentice. Allow me to demonstrate. :slight_smile:

I personally categorize “dark eroge” under a system that uses three indicators.

The first is a numeric value that ranges from 1 to 5. It factors the physical horrors. Five would be a title that has violence of the highest order: torn limbs, decapitation, detailed physical maiming, ripped organs, blood, creatures/people eating body parts, rotting corpses, maggots, ripping the unborn child out of a woman’s womb… so forth and so on. The wimpy “one” scoring would be a title that has someone getting hit or whipped – maybe a broken arm or something – but not real gore.

The second is an alpha character (A thru E) which factors the psychological horrors. This represents how much exploration and exploitation of “mental breaking” is involved. “A” is the highest rating, which denotes an eroge that has the victims truly subjected to inhuman experiences: being forced to perform acts of terrible atrocities against your own will (murdering a loved one), repeated exposure to mind games that inevitably deteriorate sanity (witnessing everything you hold dear being destroyed and/or perverted), performance of activities which degrade self worth (eating scat), being treated as something beneath existence (left in a prison filled with your own human filth)… so forth and so on. The wimpy “E” score would be a title that has someone being told their dirt and worthless – and perhaps having dirt and worthless things thrown on them - but nothing that actually makes them TRULY UNDERSTAND that they are dirt and worthless.

The third is a greek letter (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Epsilon) which factors the quality and purpose of how the physical and mental violence is actually being used: Alpha being the highest (masterful use that boarders on truly being horrific) and Delta being the lowest (its just there to sell the product). Its one thing to have a title that merely has violence in it, and completely another thing to have a title that uses the violence to propel the story forward.

Now then… a title like Virgin Roster? Meh… At best it might be a 1-D-Epsilon… that’s being rather gracious of me too.

Gore Screaming Show would rate within the neighborhood of a 3-D-Gamma… Yes it has a fantastic story and character development – but the gore is not the worst I’ve seen (even Black Cyc has outdone it), psychological breaking is not really a primary factor (as well as used rather sparingly), and the story uses violence to move it forward… but inflicting pain and misery is not the purpose of the game (although it might be for some characters in the game).

The Western market has yet to see the TRUE power of the Dark Side… and I honestly doubt it ever will. :smiley:

However the really, really gory stuff that makes the hairs on Narg’s back stand up (special category ¬Å¬á-Z-Omega), tend to be doujinshi because they REALLY are horrible… and I doubt a “real” company would want the bad media attention. :cool:

[ 01-16-2008, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Nargrakhan ]

#22

True. Yashamaru is forgoting there are dark-erogames where the protagonist is a really good guy, trapped in a very dark scenario… sometimes he is even the victim there.

Instances are DISCIPLINE, DIVI-DEAD, ISAKU and, in a way, EVER17.

#23

In a way, that makes it even worse, because it gives the impression that the authors of the game think it’s funny. An honest to goodness dark game that took itself seriously I might not loathe as intensely.

#24

I haven’t played it yet, so I can’t say for certain – but it would have to really be something to impress me. I read Berserk; yes, I’ve read the ‘deleted scene’ chapter – THAT is dark. Real life is quite dark as well, most people just choose to gloss over it because on average, it will never happen to them.

Games (books, movies, etc) that just throw around extreme content on the idea that more is better, I find, aren’t even as imaginative as some of the things that happen in real life. And real life is far more disturbing by virtue of the fact that, you know, it really happened.

#25

So those boobs would be OK, if only they were disembodied boobs, kind of like Thing from The Addams Family?

#26

I wouldn’t mind some darker, more hardcore titles myself, actually…

I would also like to see the Justsu series acquired too.

[ 01-16-2008, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: B173 M3 ]

#27

Wow, those titties are out of control! She could kill people with those things. Hell, she probably has killed people with them.

#28

Bible Black, ahh. The first game that made me enjoy being a sadistic prick or rather the first game that let me admit to myself that it can be fun. Then I played Tsuki - Possession and ended up walking around with a twisted grin that really made people uneasy. Ah, glorious.

It’s a great outlet for me, but if you knew me you’d never believe that I’m 90% canned, low-sodium darkness. (But I despise rape, which probably accounts for the other 10%. It definately accounts for why I didn’t like Virgin Roster much.)

Narg uses the Jedi/Sith analogy… it’s fairly apt but people associate Sith with pointless evil. I’ve never been convinced that just because something is dark that it’s evil, though. I tend to think of darkness as a tool – use it when necessary. People tend to run into problems when they fully commit themselves to one or the other… Destroyed by conditions they could have endured with a little more flexibility.

#29

Dittp OLF. Dark =/= brutish games only. Dark can and often does inlcude such game, but dark pertains more to the atmosphere of the game as whole, not just brutality of the main character(s). However brutality isn’t required for dark themed games. Divi Dead, except for one ending, has no “evil hero brutalizing” and it’s a very dark game.

#30

See i dont agree with that list… i put games like Tuski and Virgin roster on the dark as hell list, cuz the bondage in them to get your way with a girl… i just dont like bondage where the main char ties them up so basically they cant move. were as BB would be on the Very Dark list.
Dont get me wrong i see where your coming from, however i think we all can agree with parts of that list and parts we dont agree with. Dark to me may not be the same dark to you.

[ 01-17-2008, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Gambit ]

#31

I can fully understand that people have different levels of tolerance for brutality… but if you consider Virgin and Tsuki “dark as hell” - what does that make titles which are even MORE evil? We have to maintain a frame of reference here… and to be honest, both those titles are like “training wheels” to the serious stuff out there.

Also I now see what OLF was trying to say… people are getting dark themes and brutal content mixed up. Two incredibly distinct categories. Again Virgin and Tsuki are unquestionably dark themed… but they contain relatively low brutality content. Just go to gurochan (ah… home sweet home…) if you have the stomach for it: and even that place is relatively tame to the HARDCORE material I’ve seen.

Lastly - as I pointed out earlier - brutality comes in two flavors: physical and mental. It can make a world of difference, when a title only contains one or the other. :slight_smile:

[ 01-17-2008, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Nargrakhan ]

#32

\o/

\o/
But then people are now mixing up “galgames/erogames” (the way they used “hentai games”) with “visual novels”, regardless that most are AVG without being “visual novels” and many are RPGs, or mahjong games, or anything else, and even worse with ren’ai games, regardless that there are kichiku “visual novels”. So, heh.

[ 01-17-2008, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]

#33

LOL!

Well you have to remember: the Western masses tend to lump things together for simplicity, rather than hunker down and learn the technicalities. However it applies to just about everything.

I mean there are people who still can’t tell the difference between “tactical” and “strategic” games - even from the people who buy them and become kings of the ranking ladders.

It certainly doesn’t help that the Japanese are into specifics too. NVL, ADV, ren’ai, bishoujo, otome, shotacon, lolicon, dater, raiser, etc. Your typical title doesn’t fall into one category: it falls into several. More confusion for the casual Western follower.

I think just making people know the distinction between “eroge” and “non-hentai” is the best anyone can hope for. Trying to make the West adopt the Japanese detailed category methods, would only result in you pulling out hairs.

You don’t hear anyone mistaking the “dating simulation” Brooktown High as an eroge, do ya? :wink:

#34

That, is ignorance about the definition of the “tactical” scale and “strategical” scale. Any (board) wargamer would know that. >_<

Actually, it should be the opposite, more tags making it clearer. It’s like classifying books. Surely, describing a book as being a “first person Gothic horror novel” or an “Indian classical cooking recipe book” is better than describing them as “books”.

Neophytes, I don’t mind. If you’re not into cars, why should you be able to know the difference between a Ferrari and a Porsche, less between two different models of Ferrari? When I mind is when the speakers are supposed to be “fans” and “fan wannabes”, meaning people who pretend they want to get interested or already are… yet don’t make effort to even know the domain by which they pretend to be interested.

[ 01-17-2008, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]

#35

Hmmm… you do have a point there…

I suppose then, the best we could aspire to, is adapting a system Westerners (especially Americans) are already well acquainted with: porn and television. Porn has “categories” such as: Asian, Big Boobs, Feature (it actually has a plot), Gangbangs, Teens, Two Dicks one Chick, etc. And of course TV relates everything as: Action, Drama, Historic, Horror, Thriller, etc.

Something along those lines might work… still… I doubt it could takeoff, since “dating game” and “hentai game” are already thought as one and the same, to cover everything from Princess Maker to Tsukihime to Clannad. Sad world we live in, eh? :smiley:

[ 01-17-2008, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Nargrakhan ]

#36

I have to agree on this. It’s just a shame that with it being such a niche market with localizations that the labels themselves don’t carry over as well…

#37

Whoa… wait a minute… I think I might need to clarify a bit…

While I can agree to an extent, I have to object against the thought that long designations will work. Its just not how things in the West are normally marketed. The SIMS is called a life simulator. You don’t see them calling it a family social interaction dollhouse simulation. SimCity is an urban simulator, not an urban construction socio-economic planning ramification simulator.

So long story short: Baldur’s Gate is a RPG. Final Fantasy is an RPG. Then again so is Big Eyes Small Mouth and Vampire the Requiem. None of them are the same, but that’s just how they are marketed to the masses.

In Japan though, I’ve seen pen-and-paper RPG’s categorized in specifics (D&D was a “sword fantasy table top imagination” or something like that).

Making distinct differences is – as OLF pointed out – something a hardcore follower would do. But if you start making categories something from a Scrabble game, it makes the whole thing seem even more “niche and geeky” than it should be for Westerners… which is just a negative to get more people to buy into an already niche market.

Yes there are specifics in Western markets - but the specifics are labeled in one or two words… and mostly so people can find and/or buy the specific type of product they want.

Using OLF’s example: “Indian classical cooking recipe book” is just listed as an Indian Cookbook in the bookstore. If you want to know the specifics of that book (like if it’s subcontinent India or Native American food), then you read the description of its contents. Which is what the product page or a review article is supposed to help the consumer with. Not exactly the best way to handle things, but that’s how things are just typically handled.

You can fight the current or you can use the current to help your goals… I’d rather not fight the current unless I absolutely have no way to use it to my advantage, or it will result in massive negatives.

[ 01-17-2008, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Nargrakhan ]

#38

What I was more or less meaning is that it’s a shame that there isn’t a bigger western market to allow for further genre labeling, much in the same way as RPGs and Action. Now that I read my post again, it’s more then obvious I didn’t make myself clear.

#39

Can you really blame us here on the english-only side of things? The sample size is somewhat less than 40, over a 12 year period (Cobra Mission apparently came out in 1986). 40 games can come out in a month and a half in Japan. Hell, there’s probably some weeks where that many games come out!

Why should the American market bother learning that “visual novel” is actually distinct from “adventure game”? How many have been translated? Chain, Paradise Heights 1 (2 technically had a branch), and … I think that’s it. Wow, an entire ‘genre’ with 2 games in it.

But if there were a visual novel coming out say twice a year, and a standard ADV coming out once a month – you can bet the American market would distinguish the two real fast. All of those terms are there in the Japanese market because they help people find what they like; they’re technical terms, with a specific meaning. The term “first person shooter” didn’t really mean anything either, until an army of Doom clones meant the genre had more entires than “Wolfenstein 3D” and “Doom”.

It isn’t that ‘Westerners don’t make fine distinctions, but lump together’ but rather that there’s far less NEED for fine-grained differentiation in a group of 40 objects, a quarter of which are out of print.

#40

That’s when you start slapping people around so they’ll listen to you.