We, the regulars, call these games, “bishoujo games”. Other people call them “hentai games”, and some call them “dating-sim games”.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the correct name is “bishoujo game” or even “ren’ai”, no? AG3 made a comment on GameFAQs’ True Love board that made me think. He said that people who call them “hentai games” don’t know what they really are, like SomethingAwful lists them as “hentai games”, and that it would even be offensive to the creators.
Now, with no offence to anyone, but then shouldn’t J-Mate call them “bishoujo games” instead of “hentai games”? I’ve also seen our own Peter Payne refer to them as “dating-sim games” in his J-List mails (which I’m not receiving anymore, even though I signed up my new address).
I also would like to bring up how we are presenting these games. Most of us here play these games for the different feel and the story (again, correct me if I’m wrong). I think we agree that that’s its selling point. Considering that, should we present the games as being perverted games in which you have sex? What I mean is that on the pages of the games, most of the screenshots contain hentai scenes. You would almost think “Where’s the gameplay?”. Not to mention that that hentai scene would already be ‘spoiled’, meaning when we encounter it in the game it won’t be a discovery of a new art panel to add to our CG room.
while i do find screenshots on the back of the box to be highly annoying i tend to liken this issue to the one of subs vs dubs in the interest of appealing to the masses i cant complain much
Personally I vary it slightly depending on the game.
For example. Heart de Roommate, which I am currently playing, is a bishoujo game. There is a lot of story to get through and not (at least at the point I’m at) much sexy stuff to show for it. It’s mostly a story full of girls.
Something like, oh, Sensei 2, or X-Change where they just start sticking in more random sex for the heck of it… That’s a hentai game.
I wouldn’t call it a dating-sim unless there were lots of girls to choose from and you had lots of choices to make to try to win them. A shy, sweet, innocent teenage girl offering you sex on the first date doesn’t simulate any sort of dating experience I know about.
This is a bit of a can of worms. Some people obsess over what things are called, personally I think this is pointless. The japanese don’t call them one thing (bishoujo, H, ero, etc) so I don’t really see that it matters if people call them different things. Also, some people get rather anal about correct Japanese word usage. Again I don’t really see the point in this, it’s not like the Japanese use all of the words they have borrowed correctly.
I’m not sure what the best way to promote the games is. When I buy any B-game, I want to know about the sex, the story (or lack of), and the length of the game. A mix of all three in a games advert makes me more likely to buy it. I think that you have to show some sex in promotional materials to make the game more attractive. To not show any at all would be to ignore an important aspect of the game.
I like to called them hentai games because of the fact that I’m very hentai, if you know what I mean. And I’m proud of it.
I sometimes, but rarely, call them bishoujo games. Only when I feel I need to be polite to others who aren’t as hentai as I am.
Calling these games “bishoujo games” and “dating-sims” is a business term… a way of sugar-coating the fact that these games contains a strong sexual theme along-side with the story.
To be honest, it’s just a way to make it more politicaly correct, and sell-able to the general public… those who are new to this genre or to those who are easly offended by the sexual nature of these games.
I never call these games dating-sims games.
The Japanese word bishoujo means: pretty little girl.
Hentai means: abnormal, metamorphsis… in other words, it means your mind is not in the right place… or that your mind has changed into something different from others… such as a pervert, who’s alway thinking about sex, and nothing but sex… kind of what I am now… I’m hentai… heeheehee… and loving it.
Here’s my explanation of why everyone calls these games by different titles.
Those who call these games by…
1) Hentai: !!! really perverted individual who enjoy playing these games only because of it has “hentai” in the game… even if there isn’t much of a story behind the game. !!!
2) Bishoujo: ??? normal individuals who play these games for the story first and the “hentai” second. ???
3) Dating-Sim: ??? normal individuals. They may or may not care much for the hentai stuff… they might care more about the experience of playing the game… than the fact that there is hentai in it… they might even have the tendency to rather have the hentai stuff removed from the games… ???
This is just a generalization of the many types of people who plays these games and the many reasons why they call them by different titles. The results will vary from individual to individual… I think people who play these games don’t worry that much about how to call these games… each name is correct, one is politically correct, another is way-off and who knows why, and one if right on the money… and the winner is hentai… hentai… hentai…
Does anyone call a hentai manga a bishoujo manga?
Does anyone call a hentai dvd a bishoujo dvd?
Does anyone call a hentai doujinshi and bishoujo doujinshi?
We sure as heck can’t call them dating-sim mangas or dating-sims dvds/anime or dating-sims doujinshi.
Forget about dating-sims, and bishoujo… the winner is “HENTAI”.
Call them what they really are… hentai games.
Hentai is a word that best describe these games and also other related items such as mangas, doujinshis, dvd animations, posters, and other goods sold in the Japanese market. Hentai can be used in any situation and along with any item, and it is understood easly and clearly by everyone who into this genre.
Do let us know why you call them they way you call them, and why… we all would like to know…
[This message has been edited by eejeejee (edited 04-17-2004).]
I don’t agree. If we call them hentai games, it would mean that the only thing that is present in the game mostly is hentai. While this is not true of many bishoujo games. People will get the impression that these are games for perverts, while most that are translated right now are story-based.
i know 5 languages btw so i am a serious foreign language learner.
well, whoever brought the term hentai to the english world should be dug out to the street and shot.
i dont think any sane person in japan would call them hentai game to begin with. in the case of peter, he uses it simply because people here is most familiar with the term hentai so he is just using whatever’s best for the market to push his stuff forward.
i call them in various ways, depending on what language i am speaking. hgame, ero game, gal game, bishoujo game…i use them in equal balance, but i never use hentai coz japanese people will laugh at me if i use that, and its incorrect to begin with.
>Call them what they really are… hentai games.
i have used this example before and i will use it again. i dare you go to japan, go to a very crowded hgame store in akihabara, and hell out loud something like “kanon (or insert popular game title) is a hentai game”…and i can assure you and you will get beaten up by everbody on site, if not deported from the country with people calling you “fucking gaijin”
it really comes down to how mature and serious you are with using terms from a foreign langauage, but you should understand how the original term works and how it is being used in the country of origin. you can say all you want here but if you say hentai in front of japanese people you will just sound like a friggin’ jerk, nothing else. hentai game is never used in japan unless you really mean hentai in the literal sense which of course doesn’t apply the entire game category.
what do i personally do when i hear people say hentai? i usually don’t correct them nor say anything but i will laugh behind their backs or make fun of them later on. this may sound condescending and mean, but hey do your friggin’ homework on foreign languages before using them like a smart-ass.
quote:Originally posted by Lamuness: it really comes down to how mature and serious you are with using terms from a foreign langauage, but you should understand how the original term works and how it is being used in the country of origin. you can say all you want here but if you say hentai in front of japanese people you will just sound like a friggin' jerk, nothing else. hentai game is never used in japan unless you really mean hentai in the literal sense which of course doesn't apply the entire game category.
I don't know about this. You don't need to use a word correctly as it's used in it's country of origin. When a forign word is used in another language it's meaning can change. It happens all the time. For example, in Japan they borrow lots of words from english and have changed the meaning and I don't think anyone cares. For example, in Japan the word "smart" means "skinny." "Pants" is "underwear" etc. No big deal in my book. Just like when we say "anime" we mean Japanese animation. In Japan the word "anime" just means "animation" as the word anime is a shortened form of the word animation. So the meaning of words change, like it or not. Why do you think kanji has different meanings and readings in China compared with Japan? But the second point is totally valid. "Hentai" doesn't describe ever bishoujo game. Let's not forget that there can be bishoujo games without any erotic materal at all, such as Tokimeki Memorial. Dating-sim is even worse, since many of these games don't involve dates at all. The one thing they all have in common is that they are about pretty girls. No matter how good or bad the story is, no matter how erotic or not erotic the CGs are, the girls in the games are supposed to be a pleasure to look at. So that's why I go with "bishoujo games" since it's the only one of the three that actually fits every game in the category.
quote:Originally posted by Lamuness: i dont think any sane person in japan would call them hentai game to begin with. in the case of peter, he uses it simply because people here is most familiar with the term hentai so he is just using whatever's best for the market to push his stuff forward.
i call them in various ways, depending on what language i am speaking. hgame, ero game, gal game, bishoujo game.....i use them in equal balance, but i never use hentai coz japanese people will laugh at me if i use that, and its incorrect to begin with.
>Call them what they really are... hentai games.
i have used this example before and i will use it again. i dare you go to japan, go to a very crowded hgame store in akihabara, and hell out loud something like "kanon (or insert popular game title) is a hentai game"....and i can assure you and you will get beaten up by everbody on site, if not deported from the country with people calling you "fucking gaijin" :P
it really comes down to how mature and serious you are with using terms from a foreign langauage, but you should understand how the original term works and how it is being used in the country of origin. you can say all you want here but if you say hentai in front of japanese people you will just sound like a friggin' jerk, nothing else. hentai game is never used in japan unless you really mean hentai in the literal sense which of course doesn't apply the entire game category.
what do i personally do when i hear people say hentai? i usually don't correct them nor say anything but i will laugh behind their backs or make fun of them later on. this may sound condescending and mean, but hey do your friggin' homework on foreign languages before using them like a smart-ass.
This is what I think is pointless. We are not in Japan., and are not speaking to Japanese people. The word hentai has gained a different meaning outside of Japan than it has in Japanese. Should we be bound to only use it in the supposedly correct way because that is how the Japanese use it? Do the Japanese flawlessly apply all English words the way they were intended?
Look at English for a second and see what it is comprised of. Lots and lots of words absorbed from languages other than it's Germanic core. A hell of a lot of these words no longer have their original meanings. Is "decimate" used mainly to mean to reduce by ten? No. We do not complain about all these words being used incorrectly, so why complain about hentai? Used with English (or French, German, Spanish etc...)and when speaking to non Japanese people it is just another loan word. There are even signs that hentai's foreign meaning is re-transferring back into Japanese. The way language is used and changes is organic, words are never assimilated by someone saying "you shall use it like this". Telling people how words should be used, when that it not their common meaning, is about as much use as King Cnut telling the tides to stop.
[This message has been edited by dco_chris (edited 04-18-2004).]
quote:Originally posted by dco_chris: There are even signs that hentai's foreign meaning is re-transferring back into Japanese. The way language is used and changes is organic, words are never assimilated by someone saying "you shall use it like this". Telling people how words should be used, when that it not their common meaning, is about as much use as King Cnut telling the tides to stop.
[This message has been edited by dco_chris (edited 04-18-2004).]
I don't think that applies when the word does have a totally different and negative preconceived meaning in its origin. It's not like you are inventing a new term. What you are doing is just causing more confusion.
But like I said, if you are not in Japan sure go ahead and screw around all you like. That's why I don't tend to correct people; it's pointless.
[This message has been edited by Lamuness (edited 04-18-2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Lamuness: I don't think that applies when the word does have a totally different and negative preconceived meaning in its origin. It's not like you are inventing a new term. What you are doing is just causing more confusion.
It can do, a word can gain a new meaning without losing its original one even if the original meaning is very negative . There are examples of this in English (which is probably one of the reasons why some people find learning English so difficult [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]) . Hentai has a negative meaning, but pornography isn't generally viewed with a massive positive slant either. It is also not totally unconnected from the original term.
I agree that hentai is not an ideal term to use, but there is no other single word that can be used in English as a discription. Would ecchi have been a better term to have adopted?
[This message has been edited by dco_chris (edited 04-18-2004).]
[This message has been edited by dco_chris (edited 04-18-2004).]
I always thought of a Hentai game as a game that involved perverse sexual acts (like raping sims or non consenting BDSM/slave training sims).
I thought of an H game as games that contain erotica. (H, is not short for Hentai, at least by my understanding).
A dating sim, or so I thought, was a game that involved, as someone else mentioned, choosing between many different girls. A game that involves “winning” the heart of a girl. That may or may not be an H game, but most likely would not be an Hentai game.
A bishoujo game would be ANY game which contains “pretty girls” be that an H game or dating sim or Hentai game.
Then you have the ever popular ren’ai games… or games that contain a strong love story/romance aspect which may or may not be H games or dating sims, but which undoubtedly would be a bisihojo game.
Of course, it all makes sense in my brain… I never really cared much about what you call a game. As long as I enjoy playing it you can call it whatever you want, but I do think their are different terms and that many games fall into more than one category. I think the term bishoujo game is the most universally accepting regardless of whatever else may be contained in the game as all games which are of the above (Hentai, H, etc) contain artwork of “pretty girls.” Then again, I’ve only been at this for a little over a year so what do I know! lol
quote:Originally posted by Benoit: AG3 made a comment on GameFAQs' True Love board that made me think. He said that people who call them "hentai games" don't know what they really are, like SomethingAwful lists them as "hentai games", and that it would even be offensive to the creators.
Ah, I remember that post. What I said (or at least meant) was that when it comes to adult bishoujo gaming, you should never take the advice of people who know these games only by the name "hentai games", because they don't know what they're talking about.
I frequent several boards on the net, and every now and then I talk with Japanese people about anime, manga, and ero-games. One I spoken with several times said that for the past 10 years or so, the commonly used Japanese term for all adult entertainment has been "ero-". Ero-anime, ero-games, etc. The word H (ecchi) is hardly used at all to describe these.
To me, using the term "Hentai" about this kind of entertainment is like using "Jap" as an abbreviation for Japanese. It's originally an offensive term, even if that weren't the intended meaning when using it. Using derogatory terms just because they're easier or because they are a force of habit isn't right, IMO. Some Japanese people actually dislike seeing the word "hentai" used about describing the adult entertainment that originate from their country.
Think about it this way: Let's pretend that Norway (where I live) had "imported" the word "asshole", and that Norwegians used it in joking tone with each other as a term of familiarity. How would foreigners not used to this strange custom feel if I constantly addressed them as "asshole", just because it had aquired a somewhat different meaning in my country?
I refrain from addressing this form of entertainment as hentai because it would be insulting towards the creators, and to Japanese in general, even if I didn't mean it that way. As a display of my gratitude and understanding towards the people who have created these games, I prefer to address them the way they would be in Japan, either as "ero" or "bishoujo" (note that not all ero-games are bishoujo).
I know that Peter Payne uses the word hentai because that is (unfortunately) the most commonly known name for these products. From a business perspective, that might be the right decision. But I think that the word "hentai" should be gradually phased out.
Look at G-Collections' website. Does the word "hentai" appear anywhere on it? Since G-Collections is run mainly (or entirely?) by Japanese people, that says something about that word. G-Collections manages to create and sell games without using the word Hentai, why shouldn't others be able to?
Just my opinion, of course.
[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 04-18-2004).]
I amgree with the general consensus: * Some people are okay with the word “hentai”, others find it offensive. So unless you’re trying to cause offence, I think it’s to be avoided. * All the games can be described as “bishoujo”, so that seems like the best overall label. This includes Tokimeki Memorial (ren’ai but not hentai or adult), X-Change 2 (which I understand is ren’ai and hentai), Sensei 2 (hentai but only arguably ren’ai), and everything related until we get a yaoi game translated.
I get particularly irritated by Koiyoubi and Amusement Park being described as “hentai games without the hentai”!
Actually, “pants” means “underwear”, but the Americans changed the meaning of the word. And the Japanese got it right. Hehe.
It really doesn’t matter if “hentai” was imported or has its meaning changed over here. The point is that when something is called hentai, like ScorpioMysterica demonstrated, it’s being viewed as material which contains only/mostly perverse acts.
quote:Originally posted by Benoit: Actually, "pants" means "underwear", but the Americans changed the meaning of the word. :P And the Japanese got it right. Hehe.
It really doesn't matter if "hentai" was imported or has its meaning changed over here. The point is that when something is called hentai, like ScorpioMysterica demonstrated, it's being viewed as material which contains only/mostly perverse acts.
Not to open another can of worms, but keep in mind whatever society you may be talking about, most I have found at least publically considered most of the acts shown in these games to be 'perverse'. Not me personally, but then again I find great irony in an act that allows us to be here to debate it's nature being called perverse, which generally attaches a negative meaning to whatever you are talking about in the same sentence.
That said, I think frankly a person should always key the names and ways of calling something off of how it is called and named in the society of origin. Sticking to those terms and phrases will at least hopefully be mostly proper.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 04-18-2004).]
My philosophy is to avoid accidently giving offense when possible. If you’re posting on a board that may have native Japanese members, why risk offending them with references to hentai games? For the same reason I avoid using the word bloody in polite discussion when I know there are Brits around. Sure, you’re right that when a foreign word is appropriated by another language, it’s meaning can change. But B-game players are still part of a world community even in an English-speaking forum.
As for the Japanese use of the term “perverted” - that’s a whole other discussion - but it puzzles me why characters with an interest in sex are always referred to as “perverted” in a supposedly open society without our sexual hangups.
quote:Originally posted by Benoit: [B]Correct me if I'm wrong, but the correct name is "bishoujo game" or even "ren'ai", no? /B]
Sort of. I don't think we've seen any ren'ai games translated. Ren'ai is a specific subgenre in the same way that kichiku is a specific subgenre (the dark game subgenre, in the case of kichiku).
I don't know exactly what ren'ai means but I do know it does NOT involve getting lucky with every girl in the game - thus DYLHB for instance isn't ren'ai. I don't think that's the only criteria but couldn't explain more.
Ren’ai means true/pure love, from what I’ve heard, though my Oxford Basic Japanese-English dictionary says it means "a love story, a romance, a love marriage (as opposed to arranged marriage).
I guess it could be applied to any bishoujo game (adult and not) that deals with love, though some might not feel fitting to use it in ero-games with a lot of casual sex like DYLHB.
Take Kana - Little Sister. Isn’t that a ren’ai game? Ok, the game deals with the issues of incest/siscon, but still.
And what about Crescendo? Private Nurse? Those are, IMO, examples of ren’ai games. Sex doesn’t have to exclude love.
That reminds me of something I saw in a book about human behavioral genetics, which I’m reading now. The quote, after translating it from Norwegian, goes something like this:
“Love without sex is like a set table without food. And sex without love is like grabbing a burger and taking off”.
Taking off as in “leaving hurriedly”, not flying, just in case you were wondering
[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 04-18-2004).]
