So… seeing how digital copies of it were leaked to the torrents weeks ago, and the legit copies are now in bookstores: anyone see these too? Personally I like the new system. It’s a MMO on paper. Which makes sense, since MMO is what’s been killing the pen and paper genre - along with the flood of third-rate d20 garbage.
However I am kinda surprised (although understanding) by a lot of changes. Succubus are devils now (been house ruling that for over a decade now). Lycanthropes don’t curse with Lycanthropy anymore (a surprise for me). Vampires can’t shapeshift into wolves (although that’s easily fixed by applying the vampire template to a werewolf).
Overall though, I’m not miffed by the big changes. I love the “role locking” that’s been done for characters (which again; is stolen from MMO).
I wasn’t all that much a fan for 3rd edition. Not to say I hated 3rd… just that I didn’t care for it one way or the other. 4th edition is honestly good IMHO. As I got more intimate with it, I WORSHIPED 2nd edition… and I could see myself doing the with 4th. Took 'em long enough to get it right though…
Well it’s still the D&D licence… It’s like Warhammer… Good for beginner, but you quickly see the limitation of thoses system.
Well, i played a lot AD&D first (Greyhawk with arcana and oriental companion) and second (with a lot of add on)… But in MedFan my preference still goes to Rolemaster.(so much possibility)
And seriousy they’re good D2 0system like Paladium/Rift
Meh…i liked some of their stuff, such as balancing issues and redoing the magic system (it needed to be done for some time), but i do not like the way they made classes more iconic to MMO classes. P&P does not act like an MMO. Meat shields, FE, are one of the biggest differances. They exist in P&P, but meat-shields are rarely targeted except when the DM is rping stupid monsters or it’s physically impossible to hit anyone else. Always in P&P the enimies, with a compitent DM, go after the biggest threat or the weakest link…a meat shield is neither…that’s usually the mage or cleric or if specced right, the druid.
Don’t know it that will hold for the new system, but making the fighter as basically a meat sheild was bad.
The second one was the rouge. MMOs do not have real “role-playing” and stuff like pick-pockets for most MMOs aren’t needed, listening, bluffing, diplomacy, etc. Rouges could generally not having any dungeon geared skills (cept maybe stealth and hide, those are usually no-brainers), but not with 4e.
On races, i do not know why they put in Tieflings and not Aasimar (last i checked(… but other that that (and the lack of any kender), i think races were overall good. I do like the way you get racial abilities as you level.
Lycanthropes will be able to spread their curse in my games. I like putting the fear into my players…enough that no one likes getting cursed.
meh…that’s the worst part of the system.
it’s meh…too much borrowed from mmos, specifically for classes.
I see what you mean, but overall I think this is a good move. From a business prospective, MMO is a market they need to tap. For the last decade, PnP has been dying: even the PDF market has been losing sales as of late. Hardcore “old school gamers” have either moved on, or simply given up on D&D itself. Which is fine - I stopped supporting D&D 3rd ED a long time ago… but in light of this, rather than caving into their past customers, WotC is now looking towards getting new customers. Of course they’d like old schoolers to stick around (hence all the press conferences and expo stuff). 4th ed is different… there’s no question of that. It’s a BIG jump in how everything works.
I don’t quite agree with ya on the fighters only being meat shields though… with the exploits they have access to, high level fighters can now go toe-to-toe with high level wizards and win. Even 2nd edition wasn’t this cool for martial warriors… and 3rd didn’t bother until Tome of Battle (which was broken; like most 3.5 accessories). They have teeth now and don’t just soak damage.
As for the things that are missing… painfully it’s to sell more books. Aasimar still exist. So do Metallic Dragons. Druids as well. And of course, the core books mention Drow over and over again, yet there’s no solid statistics for them. WotC is here to make money after all. I think the development team picked what they had a preference for, to determine what went in the Core manuals, along with leaving a few teasers to make people demand/buy more.
Outside of the core manuals, I’ll take a wait and see stance though. Honestly, while I loved the 4th edition Player and MM, with the exception of a few templates and the XP information, the new GM Guide is useless.
Don’t get me wrong. I understand they are looking toward the future and think it’s good. Using stuff from MMOs is good, but P&P =/= MMO and never will = MMO. They took MMO elements that do not belong in P&P and put them in.
Yes, they made them better. This is one of the things I supported and actually takes more in ways from anime because it’s the only genre in which high-level fighters are able to go toe-to-toe with beings of epic nature. Some skills were obviously taken from MMOs…
WotC redefined “Core” didn’t you know? Core is now any book produced by them that:
[list][]Is a Player’s Handbook of any number for the current set[/]
[] ‘’ Dungeon Master’s Guide ‘’[/]
[] ‘’ Monstrous Manual ‘’[/]
[]Any complete class book[/]
[]Any complete race book[/]
[]books like Arms & Equipment Guide[/][/list]
ones that aren’t:
[list][]Anything not produced by them[/]
[]Books break balance too much (such as Book of Exalted Deeds in 3.5 (aka Book of Exalted Cheese)[/]
[]Books that change fundimental game mechanics (Unearthed Arcana)[/]
[]Books that mostly add fluff, such as a storyteller’s suppliment[/][/list]
In 3.5 it was not only the big 3 and not only the 2nd (and more than that of MM) expansions of the big three that were core, but
In second Edition High level battle was decider by Mage with a Battle of Wish “I wish to get the first strike” and a Fireball/Lightning Bolt… I only saw on type of Warrior class who were near the invicible on Ad&D 2 Ed… and only in one world.
it was the Dwarf Warrior/Priest of Tempus with the Champion Kit
RM2 (RoleMaster 2nd) is the best pencil&paper system, ever, 'Nuff said.
Didn’t read the D&D4 system yet, but from what I read in miscellaneous forums, I won’t buy it because they forgot the roleplay aspect in favour of the battle/encounter aspect. For instance, “balancing” the classes encounter power-wise (such as the Wizard not being more powerful than any of the other classes at the highest level) is like saying that “from now on, going to college and studying for five more years (starting age is +1d6 for fighters and +2D6 for wizards, and most systems won’t require any particular requirement --e.g. magic school-- to become anyone of the other classes) in the best universities won’t grant you a better salary than not even going in the worst possible highschool”. The mere fact that magical studies are obviously more expensive than fighting studies (if only because of the cost of the ingredients --more expensive and destroyed at each try) should make it more interesting to become a wizard than a fighter.
People should start to learn that social and academic requirements are more bothersome than anything else. Just as IRL, really, balance isn’t in the obvious “power” features.
For a MMORPG, ignoring the life (merely studying longer, for instance), social and economical aspects is okay. For a RPG, it’s a nonsense.
In most Western “fantasy settings” the wizard is more powerful than the swordsman (the ever overused LotR-ish campaigns especially). However in most Eastern “fantasy settings” the swordsman is more powerful than the wizard (more so with Korean, but the Chinese and Japanese have their share). I think it goes more along the lines of what techniques and powers are learned in the training, that determine which are more costly. Common “Western fantasy” does not have Chi attacks or “Cutting Wind” techniques that the Korean and Chinese fantasies like to flourish. Indeed in some of the more somber tales, using such attacks kills the swordsman (as it drains his own lifeforce or such nonsense). Now I have no idea if the development team in charge of D&D4 had anyone on the staff who reads lots of Chinese/Korean/Japanese fantasy tales, of course.
Nonetheless, expensive wizard training is a cliche staple of Western fantasy IMHO - just like swordsmen with secret invincible bloodline and/or school techniques is a cliche staple of Eastern fantasy. When a Western wizard rains Hellfire from the Heavens, your Western master swordsman is classically screwed or find some way to avoid the spell. Yet when an Eastern wizard rains Hellfire from the Heavens, your Eastern master swordsman has special “secret training” that makes it far less effective than it should be (dodging the flames, or cutting them as they fall from the sky). What happens if a Western wizard meets and Eastern master swordsman then? That would be an epic battle, no?
For my part, when designing a 4th ed campaign, I will use flavoring from the East to mingle with the West, therefore bluring out the MMO balancing, while still keeping the MMO balancing. In short: finding a middle ground of the two fantasies.
Take a good Indurate with the dev points put where it should be, witht the good Background bonus, with Focus + Frenzy and some good stuff… And your caster will have only 33% chance of killing him (well except for class who got channel… This spell should be forbiden)…
Also RM have a special type of class : the Semi-Caster… who are Warrior or Rogue class with some Magic List and can be really powerfull (Warior Mage, Nightblade, Dervich and Monk can be an absolute pain in ass for a GM if the ppl play them correctly for exemple).
Even with all the edition that D&D get, it’s still have the same flaw and miss in the end : not enough class, not enough skill… It’s too “basic”.
I don’t agree at all… With a simple Background bonus your resisting like 10 level highter, with good Items made by Alchemist + Magus Rune :
Mentalist don’t even got a damn chance (well after the level 15/20 Mentalism direct spell suck like hell so…)… The only class who can be a pain in the ass : Prophet (and if he did some Adrenaline Evasion non-user/semi-user class before… It’s simply near the impossible for a Melee class, except for some overpowered MA based Class, to hit him)
Elementalist are mostly Damage Spell oriented (Well not all, but mainly)
Only Theurgist are a fucking damn pain in the ass… Especially class who have access to Channel/Black Channel
The real Spell-user Class who’re a pain in the ass for all the non-user are the Theurgist Hyrbrid based (Crystal Mage for exemple… What a powerfull spell-user Hybrid class… especially since it’s a “Battle mage” type who can put a decent fight, even a good fight in melee… I love this class :mrgreen: ).
A good Non-User have all this chance… I remember i was the full rune gate opener with my High-Warrior Monk… because of incredulity and also because we had a Magus in the group and a PNj friend Alchemist… I was resisting 75% of the Rune and spell (well…even from my friend… I was a pain in ass to heal… Our Priest was crying everytime :x )…
sighs
I won’t enter a discussion about rules: such quarrels are pointless. As a GM, I don’t agree with your statement (I only GM RM2). If you disagree as a GM, that’s fine --to each GM, his game-- and I’m willing to compare the way we play the rules --not quarrel, compare. If you disagree as a player, then I’d say that I don’t discuss rules with a player because they are wrong, no matter what, since it’s not up to them to decide on the rules.
It’s been 10 years since i’m mastering RM (first and second) and about 15 years sonce i’m playing it.
It’s obvious that we don’t use the same rules (i’m using about 80% of the Arms Companion and for MA i’m using RMC7 (well, in first) rules)
And like i said a good (and lucky) Non-User with incredulity + some good +Resistance Item… Will resist 3/4 of the time.Just look at your Casting table against a +10 level … You’ll see that it’s really difficult to not have your spell resisted… Even with the basic rules… Well, in case, the player is lucky enought for getting it (in general player don’t want it since they planing to change class after 15 level or sometime less and becomming a spell-user)
After, it’s depend, also of the world where your playing… If, it’s Shadow World… well, that’s true that’s Spell User rules.
Anyway, in the end, a pure non Spell-User level 15+ is rare… Since Magic is so damn usefull in RM.
If all of your PCs have Unbeliever, IMO, your game is broken. Also, at average level, its effects lower a lot since the RR table would give the defender a mere +1 per level higher than 15. Then, if you you give all of your characters a “good + resistance item”, why don’t you give your spellcasters the equivalent for their spellcasting (for instance, increasing the base spell casting, which can a -55 without an UM, and that’s not taking into account enchantments replicating the Wizard’s spells, nullifying the “good + resistance item”, reducing the RR bonus [up to 60%], etc.)? Obviously, if you make it one-sided (accepting any trick in the book increasing RRs and general spell resistance, but not applying any trick increasing spell effects), sure, a character will “resist 3/4 of the time”. But it’s a will to make the game one-sided, it’s not a feature of the rules “as they are”.
Also, there’s no RM1 to speak of. There’s RM2, RMSS and RMFRP. RM1 never really existed.
I don’t give it of course… It’s up to the player chance… and i don’t give a lot of Magical item… Generally a level 15, with me, have 3 or 4 Average/good magical items (and i found it’s still too much).
And since i’m putting restriction on the class choice… (Some class are too overpowered, especially Semi-Spell User using Martial Arts and some class are too “heavy” and take to much play time like Alchemist for exemple)
So? What’s the problem? If your point was that you can powerbuild and powerplay, well, sure you can, but even then it’s easy to find counter-measures in RM2. My point was that, as an average, a non-spell user’s main weakness lies in his spell resistance. Obviously, since magic spell-user relies on their magic, any forceful try to make useless (lots of magic cancelling items, lots of magic resistance items, etc.) would lower the power and usefulness of spell casters. But it’s hardly an “average”. The main aspect of the RM2 system is that the RR bonus don’t increase with level while the Basic Spell casting bonus does: since the RR table is based on the difference between the caster and the spell recipient, it means the basic score on the RR table remains the same as one levels up if the caster levels up just the same. On the other hand, since the caster’s Basic Spell casting bonus increases with level (even the mere +1/level of most), the negative modifier caused by the spell roll increases as an average. Therefore, the basic RR roll needed increases, as an average.
Of course, the spell recipient can find ways to increase his RR bonus (items and stuff), but the spell caster can equally find ways to either increase his spell casting abilities or lower his targets’ RR bonus. As an average, both are equal and nullify each other.
There are only two stopping effects to this phenomenon: for most spell casters, the Base Spell casting bonus is +1/level, therefore halts when they reached level 20. Hybrid spellcasters, on the other hand, with their +2/level bonus see it increase indefinitely, making them the most dangerous spellcasters at high level. The second stopping effect is of course the fact the spell roll table is limited… but having the insurance of the -55 modifier is good enough. I won’t mention the +3/level professions because the Archmage and the Arcist are total hacks.
Bah, give me a Noble Warrior anytime to mÍlÈe.
According to ICE, the most powerful RM2 professions were the Warrior-Mage (able to perform just about everything, either similarly to a Magician or to a Fighter --and even considered a Warrior Type in the Arms Companion!) and the Paladin (thanks to his zillion base list). Of course, the elemental professions (from the Elemental Companion) are third, because of the PEM.
In my games, there’s no need for a “restriction on the class choice” because I’m the one selecting the profession, not my players. My position about a game system is that it’s sub-servant to the world, and not the contrary. In other words, my players define/describe their characters (in literary terms, not game terms) and I’m the one proposing them a profession matching their character concept, tweaking the base profession as needed (altering base spell list or skill cost). The game system is just an abstraction representating the laws of the world, it’s not a rule system bending the world to itself: base the system on how the world is, don’t base your world on how the system is.
(as an aside, it’s a pleasure discussing RM2 because the ICE boards are pretty dead and most RPG boards are all about D&D)
No problem with the Noble Warrior since this class are like Knight and have a code of honor.(i Know it’s Warrior Mage derived class, but as a GM, i can handle easily a Noble Warrior because of it’s code :twisted: )
And i agree Warrior Mage and Paladin are the most powerfull class… With Monk.
Elemental Class are totally forbiden with me… They’re too powerfull.
As a GM, I especially like the Paladin ===> army of linked Paladin ==> Sacrifice ===> Nuclear Blast on the players :twisted:
But it still let player play this those class… because they’re not easy to handle and have a lot of subtilities… Most of the Player don’t even know how and when to cast a Direct Damage Spell with the Warrior Mage… and most of them skip the most interesting and powerfull List of the Paladin.
You can also said, that’s Player who like Semi-User… usually look if the class have adrenaline evasion… Because they don’t like to put Dev Point in transcend Armor and to have to do another Skill Test before the casting Roll… That’s why you see a lot of Monk, Dervich or Nightblade.(well in my case ^^)
Actually, it’s a variant of the Paladin, not of the Warrior-Mage. The Warrior-Mage variants are the Elemental Warrior (EC) and the Elementalist (RMCVII).
I don’t agree with that: Adrenal Defence is offset with elemental spells and projectile weapons (Yadomejutsu is foremost useful versus one or two projectiles but with the Lightning Draw skill of the Arms Companion, an archer can easily fire thrice in a round; well, I guess you can say a Monk has his Dodging spells). Compared to him, the Nightblade is IMO more dangerous since he can Spell Dodge the elemental spells, Deflect the physical attacks and choose either to go low armoured (he has a very low Adrenal Defence cost) or heavy armoured (he’s a Mentalist so doesn’t suffer much spell penalty). Then, of course, you have the Adrenal Focus spells, that allow him to not need to develop much his weapon skills. Fearsome.
They are, but their “balance” lies in how they are played and interact with the world. I wrote it once already in a previous RPG thread, but true balance doesn’t reside in raw power alone: scarcity and social aspects are also very important. If you make all classes equally accessible to a player, you create unbalance. OTOH, if the most powerful classes are also the hardest to acquire/justify, that balances them. No one would deny that a king is “more powerful” than a peasant. It doesn’t mean you should disallow the existence of kings in your world because the balance exists in the fact in a kingdom there’s only one king and millions of peasants.
The main problem with the Warrior-Mage is his development cost: you cannot make a good one with little dev. points because you need to focus on both the physical and the magical aspect. The thing is that his skill costs are too high, due to a mathematical error (they regress toward the mean because he was created by taking two diametrically opposite sets of skill costs, combining them, and halving the resulting numbers). Of course, it compensates for his power level, but the drawback is that you can only be an awful or an excellent Warrior-Mage, with no in-between.
Mentalist spellcaster rule for the matter, since they don’t suffer (too much) from armour penalties. OTOH, Channellers got it good at high level because they’re representative of their respective gods: when you’re the High Priest of the main religion in the capital, you don’t care about having raw power or not, the fear of your god is your best weapon. As for the Essence spellcasters, they have the spells with the widest areas of effect (even if you don’t take into account the broken spell lists of the Arcane Companion, such as Barriers, Matter Shaping or Friction Mastery).
Its ethe ArmsMaster (RMCVII) who’s a Mentalist variant of the Paladin.I’m pretty sure that’s Noble Warrior are a Mentalist Variant of Warrior Mage (who can also be played with Mentalist instead of Essential)
You can’t overcome some of the AoE spell with Adrenaline Move Spell Overdance.
The fact,also, that Monk have acces to powerfull list (especially in the Initiative section) and can overcome some of the damage with his Regeneration List.
The fact also, that Monk have access to MA School of the Arms… Which can give some Freaking Bonus.
As for the Nightblade, is really the most Powerfull Rogue Based Semi-User… It’s even a better Assassin and Rogue than thoses two classes.
The must with a Nightblade is to change class for a Mystic… And you become an Awesome Assassin/Spy.
After for the balance thing… I forbid some class at the creation.
If the player can find a Master willing to teach him, then he can change class for it (if he got the what it take of course)… But Master for Powerfull class are hard to find and hard to please
