ATTACK!
I have to agree with ROMeo:
quote:
To each their own, I’m not one to judge as we all have our own “guilty pleasures” (regardless of whether the guilty pleasure is actually bad or not, all it takes is society to stigmatize it as “lame”, “nerdy”, or otherwise “evil” for it to become taboo). HOWEVER…
* You don’t discuss black metal in church.
* You don’t discuss videogames with your run-of-the-mill nerd-o-phobic highschooler circle
* You don’t discuss windows in a Linux convention…well, I think you get the idea by now. Mere logic, discusing a subject that’s considered taboo in front of the masses (especially strangers) calling on their understanding is the quickest way to instead be ostracized. Just watch Otaku no Video.
Evil? Yes. Xenophobic? Of course! Prejudiced? You bet! But then so is life, so might as well get used to it and play by the rules.
…next time why don’t you rather try to introduce us to the theme slowly instead of just bringing it out? Preferably with a URL that’s not a violation to forum rules.
I realize your intent was simply to spread the word, but I think a little subtlety would have gone a long way here. Instead you posted a direct link to a site centered on adult content on an all-ages board.
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
Placing a warning makes it their [kids’] own responsibility.
Actually, legally speaking, it doesn’t. Adults are responsible for what they allow kids to be exposed to. You could argue that it’s the parents’ job, the board moderator’s job, or the posters’ job to keep kids away from inappropriate material on that site, but it’s NOT the kids’ job to choose responsibly for themselves.
Overall, I think you would have more luck posting at adult anime-related boards, Benoit, rather than posting in more public areas where you’re sure to draw flames. And if you’re going to post about bishoujo games on all-ages boards, it would probably be best to be a little more prudent about it.
[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 05-01-2005).]
I agree with dark shiki, WHERE and HOW does matters in this case…
I don’t care. That’s not what it’s about at the moment.
It’s about Brave Soul. It’s not a game where women offer sexual favors, dammit!
[This message has been edited by Benoit (edited 05-01-2005).]
You’re preaching to the choir. But if you’re going to go out there and try to convert others to bishoujo gaming, you should first consider whether they care to be converted. I’d stick to friends and adult-oriented boards, myself.
Also, it might be helpful to make distinctions between the various subgenres of bishoujo. You started running into problems when people began lumping all the English market games together, and then making the reasonable summation that they’re all sex romps. Make clear distinctions between the subgenres. Say “I prefer renai games,” and explain what “renai” entails. You’d probably have more success pitching the renai subgenre than simply bishoujo in general. Don’t try to argue that dark games (or lolicon games for that matter ) are ok too. That just weakens your overall argument unnecessarily. Keep your argument focused and it’ll be easier to defend.
[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 05-01-2005).]
I can’t just drop it. This LaconianShot guy accuses me of playing a sex romp. And I know that what he claims about Brave Soul isn’t right.
Since I know I’m right, I can only continue.
I just wish I could get my ideas accross better. It sucks to have autism in that regard.
You did fine Benoit. But when your audience isn’t receptive, you’re going to have a rough time regardless. That’s why you should always choose your audience carefully. Actually, I agree with LaconianShot: just let it go. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.
If I did fine, why am I being accused of splitting hairs, mincing words, and being inconsistent?
Because you’re human? Because you had a hostile audience, perhaps? People have strong convictions about such subjects, and when arguing an opposing viewpoint they’ll be inclined to see faults of logic that aren’t even there, or that could be attributed to differences in perception. It’s human nature, and we all do it. It’s best not to get too worked up about it. You also had people that took your side, and that’s always heartening.
[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 05-01-2005).]
When words fail, grab a shotgun and shot till they understand…
Interesting. I was going to register there and make some posts until I saw links to kj1980’s posts on Animesuki, and AG3’s posts. There’s really not much I can add to that. I always argue for bishoujo games, but it’s often very difficult to discuss it outside of our known circle of players. Why? Because we can defend the games themselves easily enough, but the sterotypes about the players are no untrue in general, especially in Japan. The games are marketed toward the “otaku” population. Sigh… Perhaps you have a game without sexual scenes and a really good storyline. Even then, it’s still a bishoujo game. In this respect it’s not any different than the most graphic yarigee. Bishoujo games are about the girls, and the players like the games centered around the pretty girls. Even with their clothes on, bishoujo games are still pretty anime girl fantasy stories. Selling these things to the otaku population means that they are being sold to many people who don’t have healthy relationships with women in real life. Of course this is not true for everyone but it’s not untrue. What kind of person plays GTA? Any normal person could. That’s a hard part to argue. Personally, I am no longer concerned about being in any kind of a “group.” I don’t worry about “what kind of people” play a certain type of game. But it is a concern for new players. There are somethings that you can’t argue against.
That does have a ring of truth to it…at least for the English market. The majority of English bishoujo fans, I think, are either anime otaku or are looking for porn (or both )…neither of which makes you look particularly good. However, I don’t think this is the case in Japan. The games are so popular that the otaku population alone couldn’t account for all of the sales. Essentially, they’re as mainstream as GTA over here. So I think the English market’s tendency to draw certain crowds is more a result of Western attitudes, rather than it arising from some unambiguous, universal quality of the games themselves.
Hah, but I do kind of wonder about people that play a lot of games like GTA, especially kids. The kids I know that like to play such games non-stop also happen to demonstrate an alarming tendency towards violence…
[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 05-02-2005).]
What still amuses me is how people feel they are “protecting” their children from something. Perhaps we do not wish our children to be exposed towards violence, this I can understand. Violence at a young age can traumatize someone who does not fully understand it, and/or isn’t mature enough to come to terms with it.
But sex…is normal. It’s merely due to custom that we feel this strong urge to “protect” minors from it. Blegh, just my $2.
quote:
Originally posted by Schnugget:
Violence at a young age can traumatize someone who does not fully understand it, and/or isn't mature enough to come to terms with it.
And can't the same be said for sex? What if a minor got ahold of even a rather benign yarugee game like Tottemo Pheromone and thought that the situations in it represented a realistic portrayal of a romantic relationship? I don't think such a circumstance is even as crazy as it sounds, expecially if you don't have any personal experience with relationships. I won't even go into the dangers of sexual intercourse without protection, which are notably neglected in the vast majority of b-games. Thus I believe that some degree of restriction of sexual entertainment is necessary in our society. How much is arguable.
I don’t see how it can traumatize someone, either violecne or sex, unless its inflicted upon them, which is a crime.
I myself grew up exposed at the “tender age” of 4 watching horror films and violient shoot-em-ups, etc. Watching Hellraiser or Terminator did not give me nightmares.
I got nightmares from watching the entire Twin Peaks series at the age of 12-13. Not that it made me a psycho or anything (not yet).
I think young children shouldn’t be exposed to either extreme violence or very graphic sex. Both are meant for adult consumption, and debating which is the bigger evil when children are exposed to them really shouldn’t be an issue, since it shouldn’t happen in the first place!
[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 05-02-2005).]
Welcome back Benoit! I agree with what has been said here. You did a good job with a rough audience. I would have put more emphasis on giving suggestions of the strong story games that the genre has to offer. That the board members could enjoy these games and how they are very different from the perceived notion of what the industry is like. Trying to defend the entire genre was too big of a bite to take in one forum. Focus the board on a few strong examples of what the genre could be with the support of spending dollars on such strong titles would seem the best shot at getting some converts.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
And can't the same be said for sex? What if a minor got ahold of even a rather benign yarugee game like Tottemo Pheromone and thought that the situations in it represented a realistic portrayal of a romantic relationship? I don't think such a circumstance is even as crazy as it sounds, expecially if you don't have any personal experience with relationships. I won't even go into the dangers of sexual intercourse without protection, which are notably neglected in the vast majority of b-games. Thus I believe that some degree of restriction of sexual entertainment is necessary in our society. How much is arguable.
Eh I discovered my fathers porno stash at age 9 and It didn't mess me up! (says the man posting on a board dedicated to animated Japaneese sex games [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/eek.gif[/img] .
[This message has been edited by Laslow (edited 05-05-2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Laslow:
Eh I discovered my fathers porno stash at age 9 and It didn't mess me up! (says the man posting on a board dedicated to animated Japaneese sex games [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/eek.gif[/img]
So, your journey down the path of the dark side started at the age of 9, huh... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
I can’t really blame the guys on the other board for their line of thinking with regards to bishoujo games.
Let’s face it: majority of these games (those translated in English anyhow) are in fact sex romps, and very few people (even in Japan) play these games for the story. They’re in it for the fantasy aspect and the sex.
It’s idiotic games like Pick Me, Honey! that make me want to stop playing these games altogether at times.