Do you find sex objectionable?

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#1

Hmm, I don’t want to start something unnecessary, like another long flame thread here on Peach Princess, but does anyone else here find sex objectionable? If you are underaged and embarassed about it, I can’t defend you, but why do mature persons find it objectionable? A poster on MegaTokyo said

‘sex is objectionable’

to which I countered

‘why is sex objectionable’

and he says

‘it’s not, it’s the penetration that is objectionable’.

He further expounds his philosophy abstinence by saying

‘You can have fun talking about sex, but c’mon, don’t be silly.’

To which I counter

‘use the consumption of food as an analogy for sex, just seeing the food and smelling the food can whet your appetite and elicit drooling reflexes, but it is not the act of eating the food, so you don’t experience the satiating effects of eating the food.’

Well, I think it’s just a common defense to say ‘sex is ok, but please, no penetration’ so I didn’t delve much deeper into the issue. For all I know it could just be a parent who’s eager to defend his children, or a non adult Bishoujo fan that views sex as a detriment to the story development.

I didn’t go into the whole mosaic issue since that’s just another beast, and that he is unaware of the self-imposed ‘censorship’ in Japanese Bishoujo games.

I want this topic to be a calm, rational discussion. It pains me very much that these discussions often generate into heated shouting matches. So please, keep it cool.

Let me share my experience of how I got into Bishoujo games. I saw Himeya at a booth at Otakon 1998, and Eve Burst Error’s demonstration impressed me so much, that I thought it was an Anime at first. I looked at the games they had on display and expressed the same degree of curiosity as anyone else would have done, but the ‘No one under the age of 18’ instinctively gave me a start. My friends bought 2 games, and I borrowed Divi-Dead from him to check it out. I was willing to look past my first impression, and well, everything else is history. The story is totally mesmerizing, creepy atmosphere and gorgeous CG’s. Even the music entrancing. I never let the sex CG’s bother me, and I would be lying if I didn’t enjoy them or find them arousing, because I do. I think it’s part of the whole experience of enjoying Bishoujo games. Unfortunately, I think people confuse the ‘adult situations’ and ‘adult content’ with ‘sex and only sex’ exclusively, when in fact it is just an inclusive component of an adult Bishoujo games, along with mystery, intrigue, murder, adult relationships that aren’t just flowers and movies, but dinners and bedrooms.

#2

Well, my first thought would be that "that"
person is embarrest by his/her sexually.

Or lets there religon do there thinking for them.

#3

well im totally comfortable about talking about sex, but if there is someone i’m talking isn’t comfortable, then you can pretty much realize instantly and you’ll most likely feel uncomfortable.

#4

bokmeow, I always answered that question the same way: children aren’t born in cabbages, nor brought by storks.

#5

Well, I does certainly not find the sex objectionable… as I’ve said, sex is a part of life, it something everone have done when they’ve been in love with anyone and it’s also something that most people does enjoy, whenever they want to admit it or not… besodes, sex is there in books, movies, etc, so why should it be "wrong2 to have some sex in games, too? What pisses me of with the guys at Mega Tokyo, is that they call the bishoujo game genre “porn” when it’s not like that in most cases… For example, the sex in Tokimeki Check-In could perpaps be called a bit “hardcore”, but not porn not from my point of view at least… don’t know about Snow Drop, but the sex in there is from what I’ve heard from those who’ve played it a lot more “gentle” than the sex in Tokimeki Check-In… and from what I’ve heard of Brave Soul, that could hardly be called porn… Hmm, Kumiko, if you’re not taking a “break” right now, how about going to MegaTokyo nce or twice, perhaps, and give some bits of your wisdom to those people (after all, you’ve spoken a little to people at Annimenation, so why not speak a little to those at Megatokyo too?)? After all, most of those people doens’t seem to have all that much knowledge or experience of the adult bishoujo game genre.

But then, again, it mayt still be impossible to change their point of views, if they insist on seeing things from a so-called “pure-minded” perspective.

[This message has been edited by Spectator Beholder (edited 01-25-2002).]

#6

Spectator Beholder, don’t ever give up and say ‘perhaps it’s impossible to change people’s minds’. I think it’s one of the most defeatist thing to say, because you haven’t let others defeat you, you’ve defeated yourself by assuming people can’t change. It is a long arduous process though, and you need to take every little victory you can, because nothing is more powerful than the informal social network. An outcast is merely an individual who does not conform to the social normative, but if you can influence a handful of two or three, they can disseminate your ideology.

#7

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not giving up, I’m just saying that some people never change their views on some things, no matter how hard you try to convice them to do it… And this guy is most likely someone like that, someone who doesn’t want to change his way of seeing or think of some things.

#8

you actually hit on my biggest problem trying to promote bishoujo gaming to others…as soon as you add sexual situations to the mix, everyone (almost) in America immediately goes "oh, it’s porn"

for example, a discussion i had with my friend dan last night:

Dan: What’s this game, Mel?

Me: Oh, that’s Snow Drop, one of my bishoujo games

Dan: Bishoujo? What’s that?

Mel: well, it means pretty girls…it’s really a wonderful game…it has an incredible story and the artwork is amazing

Dan: Pretty girls…kind of like fan service in anime?

Mel: Well, sort of…the characters don’t really dress sexy too much of the time in Snow Drop, they do in other bishoujo’s sometimes…there’s occasionally a sex scene with the ‘pretty girls’ though, during the course of the story, butit’s not the point of the game

Dan: So it’s porn.

Mel: No, it’s not. It has a great story, kind of like a fairy tale. It’s just that when the character’s relationship develops to a point when most people have sex, they do, too, and it just isn’t blanked out. It’s like a romance where the screen doesn’t fade out after the first kiss. There’s sex, but it isn’t the point of the story.

Dan: Come on, Mel, don’t bullshit me. It’s porn, just admit it…


And so on and so forth…sadly, this conversation mirrors just about every conversation i have tried to have with anyone concerning bishoujo games…the only one i got through to was my friend Herbie, who really likes games of all types and after a long conversation and a peek at some demos, he finally got it He plans to buy Brave soul by the way

but isn’t Ameroca’s ignorance and stereotyping really sad? We all love sex, we should just admit it…it doesn’t make you a bad person

#9

Well, while it might be hard to get people to “accept” the adult bishoujo games, it’s far from “impossible” to do so… I mean, there’s millions of people in our world, and to get at least ten thousand of them to buy some adult bishoujo games shouldn’t be all that hard, since most people loves sex in one way or another anyway .

And if Peach Princess manages to get their gmaes out through shops or stores that sells adult material, they might get the success they need to stay in bussiness .

#10
quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not giving up, I'm just saying that some people never change their views on some things, no matter how hard you try to convice them to do it... And this guy is most likely someone like that, someone who doesn't want to change his way of seeing or think of some things.

But we're foremost writting in the MT board for all the others who read the thread, not only for Omoikane...
Why would you want absolutely Omoikane to change his way of seeing? Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, as long as they don't bother other people with it. And he had said that he doesn't mind people liking h-games or calling it whatever they want to. He just himself call them "porn", though he's not forcing anyone to call them "porn"...
Anyway, Beholder, we're three from here on the MT discussion (not a bad thing all things considered; I was getting weary being the only one vs. all [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]), even if we can't persuade our respective speaker, the main point IMHO is that at least we spoke our point, to the rest of the MT readers who can then make their own opinions, having all the facts presented to them.

OLF, who thinks the main point isn't to win any discussion, but to inform people of the existence of th different points of view.

[This message has been edited by olf_le_fol (edited 01-28-2002).]

#11

I can’t BEGIN to say how objectionable I find sex. I mean, when I played through Snow Drop the first time, I was so unbelieveably disgusted I had to play through it AGAIN to believe it. Then after that, I had to play it once more, just to drive my disgust into my mind… the fourth, fifth, and sixth times totally made me lose hope in mankind.

Honestly though, I don’t find it objectionable, I find it enjoyable. However, living in a college dorm (where the question isn’t “do you have porn?” but “how much porn do you have?”), I have noticed many people aren’t opposed to the idea of sex, so much as the idea of sex conveyed through the animated medium. Many of these people are the very same ones who would classify all anime (like Magic Knight Rayearth, Sailor Moon, and Ah! My Goddess) as porn worse than their own.

The important thing about advertising through the adult industry isn’t that there will suddenly be a huge market, but that it will be willing to accept the product at all. The market will then at least be given the opportunity to grow, and the English-speaking market may possibly grow to accept it. We won’t ever know unless it’s out there. At least, that’s my theory… I’m a German major, not marketing or public relations.

#12

I need a little bit of feedback: Omoikane on the MegaTokyo has repeatedly taken refuge behind the argument that the separation threshold between tasteful portrayal of sex and porn is the ambiguously defined criteria which he dubs ‘explicit portrayal’. So, it seems he renegs on his original objection to sex and maintains that sex is ok as long as it is ‘not silly’. He cites Kare Kano as an example, describes the sex scene as an abstract pencil drawing, which he has ‘no problems with.’ He then renegs again, and stands fast on his original conservative stance when Muto mentions that Romance novels have long had lots of sex scenes, to which omoikane counters, ‘Do they have pictures?’

I am uncertain what his position is on Bishoujo games, but I think it can be fairly summarized as 'The Bishoujo game is respectable, and not a ‘hentai’ game if there is no explicit portrayal of sex (read: ‘penetration’ in his own words). If it fails to meet this criteria, it is porn, no other description for it. He won’t even evaluate the game, since he considers the sex scenes as glaring demerits.

olf_le_fol, Beholder, I think what we are carrying on at MegaTokyo is a good thing because omoikane offers a perspective that you and I would rarely understand unless we were, like him, standing on the outside looking in.

[This message has been edited by bokmeow (edited 01-28-2002).]

#13

Well, didn’t quite say that I wanted Omoikane to change his views. He’s allowed to have his own opinion about bishoujo games, but that doesn’t mean that I agree with his calling Bishiujo gmaes porn, since in my opinion, porn is something complettly different from most bishoujo games.

#14

one of the problems i have run into as well is, as mentioned above, people seem to think it is really sick to be attracted to drawn characters instead of real people

whenever i get a physical crush on a bishoujo or anime character, whenever i ask someone “Isn’t he/she hot?” , the most common response is “Um…it’s a drawing, Mel” or "She/He’s not real, Mel"

what is it with americans who think it’s terrible to be attracted to an artwork? I mean, right now, I have a crush on Seymour from Final Fantasy 10 (i love that spiky off-the-wall hair) and everyone i know thinks i’m nuts

#15

A bunch of gamers were totally head over heels over Lara Croft, so you are not in the minority ladyphoenix.

#16

I think it might also have to do with the fact that when some people think of drawn characters, they’re thinking more along the lines of Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse. (Think of the Garth’s question to Wayne in Wayne’s World about being attracted to Bugs Bunny when he dresses up as a girl bunny.)

Or if you want to go into a more socialogical viewpoint, you could get into the trend towards a less romantic idealism. (I hate when I put together a sentence that doesn’t even make sense to me.) Um, how people are encourage to stop looking for “Mister/Miss Right”, that the “perfect one” doesn’t really exist and to have a more realistic outlook in there search for a mate. Being attracted a drawn character would be against this idea (Since it’s easier to reach idealism in a drawing). That it indicates you’re still looking for “perfection” instead of grounding yourself in “realism”. (I suddenly feel like I’ve turned this into a psychological profile of Minoru from Snow Drop. Okay, I’ll be quiet now… )

#17

A large part of the flak that the anime fetish receives, I think, comes from the misconception that if you like drawn characters, you don’t like real people. I cannot deny this is sometimes the case (having known someone like that…) but I believe it to be the exception rather than the rule.

Still it gets awfully annoying when you constantly have to take a lot of hassling from those around you. At least in my situation, guys get on my case, but these are the same guys who make more than enough lewd comments and have large enough collections of live-action pornography that in the end, while they may not have secret toon fetishes, they aren’t too much different.

So I take it all with a grain of salt, and don’t get overly troubled about it.

#18

You know what? I think that Kumiko is right here. Everyone I talk to about bishoujo just says the same things, like “It’s a drawing”, “Why don’t you just get some real porn?” etc. It can become quite frustrating that they don’t understand what bishoujo gaming is about, despite all of my efforts to explain it to them. They just see it as “Porn for weird people”. One of the most extreme problems I have with the this is my brother, he’s constantly saying that I only buy the games “because they are porn” and that they have no story, and it’s weird to like “hentai” as he puts it, he won’t even accept me telling him that the games are geniunely popular in Japan and just thinks that “They’re only bought by loads of old perverts and pedophiles in Japan and that’s why they’re popular”, however I did recently catch him browsing a “Pokemon hentai” site and another “hentai” site a couple of months back on seperate occasion, and I even found a stash images from the sites hidden in one of his games directories on my PC. I know that he’s played all the way through True Love at least three times (There’s 100% CG for all characters) and Kotobuki once, yet he claims that he had no interest in the games and claims that it was “Novelty value of a new type of game”. It just shows that what Kumiko said is probably true anyway.

The truth is that if any of his friends found out about the sites that he’s been browsing and the games that he played, they would probably think he is weird in the same way that they think I am, and while I can deal with it, I don’t think he could.

#19

“pokemon hentai” site? Say it isn’t so!

Okay, I’m kidding. Though I think it’s interesting that people aren’t being “outcast” for porn itself but for “toon porn”. And what happens as computer animation becomes more and more life-life? (I havn’t seen any myself yet but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are, er, risque images of characters from stuff like “Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.”)

#20
quote:
Originally posted by Kumiko Kamiyama:
No - that's nothing. You guys are not staying current with the adult industry! [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

You gotta play catchup now and see where things are really happenin'!

http://www.cyber-date.com/

Everyone should remember that Kumiko said this would happen... she just didn't know that it was already in development when she said that!

Okay, now that site disturbs more than it should and I'm not really sure why. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]