I don’t think people don’t care for stories anymore. Just look at the success RPGs have these days. Entire fan sites and communities are created and dedicated to them. If the bishoujo game industry can market the stories to be almost as epic as RPGs have, you have a sure seller.
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Originally posted by Benoit:
I don't think people don't care for stories anymore. Just look at the success RPGs have these days. Entire fan sites and communities are created and dedicated to them. If the bishoujo game industry can market the stories to be almost as epic as RPGs have, you have a sure seller.
I don't know, I'd hate it if they did that just to make money. I hate that everything's become so commercial that people don't care about artistic vision anymore but only that they make a profit. But I don't know what you mean by market stories to be almost as epic as RPGs. Like do you mean make them in the RPG style like games like Final Fantasy or like Brave Soul or something. I like RPGs and all but it has to have a real good story like Lord Of The Rings or something that really moves you. Also in another post I remember ekylo explaining all this stuff about Fantasy element and all that
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Originally posted by Interzone:
(...)
I meant that plot often isn't of paramount importance in gaming and I believe that to be a fair position. Nor is a heavy plot necessary for a game to be moving, as I'm sure those who have played ICO on PS2 would testify.
Yes but see to me story often equals plot, I mean let's face it would Kana be as emotional and moving if it had little story, no plot and we could play it in half a daze with our eyes glazed over? I merely site the way I have noticed others playing less plot intensive, story intensive games.
Length of the cut-scenes? Well complaining about that speaks to me more of lessening attention spans and a want for the flashing mutli-images a second world that the media is starting to pander too then a true decrease in the like of plot/story intensive stories. It is still possible to win them back I think, but not if people continually give in to the demand for multi-images a second flashing on a screen. If it is unclear what I mean, watch most ads on television or any sports highlight show and you will see what I mean by that multi-image a second idea.
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Originally posted by Benoit:
I don't think people don't care for stories anymore. Just look at the success RPGs have these days. Entire fan sites and communities are created and dedicated to them. If the bishoujo game industry can market the stories to be almost as epic as RPGs have, you have a sure seller.
But that comes back to my question of why don't they care for stories anymore? I can think of several that might involve various school systems and other teaching methods, but that opens a whole new can or worms I don't think we should open at this time.
Also I agree with tiger_of_the_wind2040 if they change it to just have a sure seller then in a sense they are betraying those that have been loyal to them before the change. History has shown that if you betray those that are loyal to you before you become a household name it will in some way come back to bite you in the rear. Often this happens when a company gets pigeon-holed as a particular type, in this case, it would be that of RPG style games. Now even if they have great stories and even if those stories can be transfered easily in design say a 1920's Detective style line of stories (watch some of the old movies based on that style to see they are much more story driven and while it could lead to great story /plot based games we know it would not easily lend itself to an RPG style of gaming and stay true to the form), people link the company to RPG style story games. So since popularity in that type of RPG story game starts to fall, the company having already alienated its once loyal core while simply having to watch those bandwagon riders it changed to capture go to the next fad it will often go down in roaring flames.
Good stories should not be forgotten for the sake of a dollar nor should people pander to the masses simply to make money, they should try and draw the masses to them as they are in order to make money.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 03-18-2004).]
The difference between RPG’s and most bishojo games we’ve seen is gameplay, which was sort of my original point.
Would Final Fantasy sell so many copies if that complex fighting system and exploration were replaced by still images and text? I don’t know, but I doubt it.
I feel we need the occasional Brave Soul or Sakigake to compliment the better visual novels (Cresendo, Kana, etc) and open up the medium to new fans.
Hmmm… Am I the only one who feels Final Fantasy series has a lousy plot/story? Graphics and action wise, I would say they are probably the best in RPG genere; but FF has never struck me as having a plot to match up its heavyweight reputation. Pretty standard stuff… the story.
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Originally posted by Angry Gamer: Hmmm... Am I the only one who feels Final Fantasy series has a lousy plot/story? Graphics and action wise, I would say they are probably the best in RPG genere; but FF has never struck me as having a plot to match up its heavyweight reputation. Pretty standard stuff.... the story.
I am not sure lousy but I do think they are very much repetative from those I have played. Yet that is part of what I see too, people often give up plot for action. However, with a good story, with a good plot, the images might be still, as words are in a book, but you 'see' the action in your mind, you see the movement without having to watch the movie version to understand dash to the corner of the room as shots are fired, means run crouched dodging behind various objects for cover. It requires more imagination, but it is often richer then seeing the pictures move for themselves.
I have played a few of the Final Fantasy and no offense to those that live by them, but I don't get it, replace character A with character B and you basically have a new old game in that world. I don't see massive differences in overall stories or plots. Yet no one could ever mistake Kana for Crescendo or Crescendo for Come See Me Tonight because the stories hold so much more depth and don't relay on action sequences to move the story forward. Sort of, in terms of movies the difference between any Bond picture and The Maltese Falcon as an example of one that is known for and lives for action, and one that has a rich story plot, in my opinion.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 03-19-2004).]
With cut-scenes being too long, it’s less of a video game. A video game lets you interact with the world. Too long cut-scenes take that element away. People want to play a game, not watch a movie.
I think you misunderstood my point. I didn’t mean to make more RPGs or anything of the sort. What I meant was that we have games with great stories and plot, and that if we could market that great aspect about them, just like RPGs do nowadays (marketing their plot and story), we would have a sure seller.
People ARE interested in story. Again, look at all the RPG fans. Not all RPGs are focused on action.
But by definition RPG’s are not as much story/plot based as a textual based game. Most if not all RPG’s have fight scenes, most of it all have more action sequeneces then plots/stories. It is not getting people to market them differently that is the key I think, it is getting people away from the idea that you have to have total control over your character, you must have more interaction with the world, as you said which I still think text based games allow since you can choose which path to take in the story.
As to cut-scenes being too long, I am still not sure I understand why that is an issue, if you enjoy the game you should try and enjoy all aspects of it and not say, well it’s great but, then you don’t truly like everything about the game and should stop supporting those releases by not buying them hoping to force a change that way.
If people are interested in a story why do they go for the shoot-kill-shoot-kill move to next scene game, which from my experience is what most (note I did not say all) RPG’s are anymore, more then these types of story based games? Is it because the pictures move, for if they love stories then the only thing those story games do not have is the continually moving pictures, if they truly love and are interested in stories.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 03-19-2004).]
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Originally posted by SCDawg:
As to cut-scenes being too long, I am still not sure I understand why that is an issue, if you enjoy the game you should try and enjoy all aspects of it ... [snip][This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 03-19-2004).]
I don't quite understand it either, but it's a common sentiment. This is the biggest complaint about Xenosaga episode I, in fact. The game's cutscenes are really long, and in fact "interaction" at times consists (I am being totally literal here) of "watch cutscene - walk down corridor - watch cutscene" where each cutscene is like 10 minutes. Apparently people weren't happy with this plot-to-gameplay ratio.
[This message has been edited by Nandemonai (edited 03-19-2004).]
All of which continues to tell me at least, and yes this is pure opinion so please no one take any direct offense, that they don’t have the paitence to sit through a story/plot anymore even if it serves to make the control and action of their RPG chacaters more meaningful. Sad really since most of the games here, the bishoujo games are textual and not the type people seem to clamor for, which was known from the start of this conversation, just sad to have it continually proven, or at least seemingly continually proven to be true.
Actually, many (not all) RPGs have basically the same if not less interaction than text AVG. RPGs tend to convey the perception that you are making decisions for the main character, but most of the time your path is simply dictated by the prescribed storyline. Most of them have single endings or multiple nearly ‘similar’ endings.
As I said many, but yes that is also part of the lack of story or plot, they limit your choices, within various games mentioned previously there are at times 6 or more different, vastly different, possible endings, and routes that might at times end the game before you get to the endings which I think is one of the differences between having a story/plot, and action with a small story or plot to back it up.
Gah… I don’t see why it is so difficult to understand.
Video games are about playing a game and having fun. Interaction. During a cut-scene, no interaction can be made. So if there are too many of them, you don’t have much interaction, and then it’s more a movie than a game.
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Originally posted by Benoit:
Gah... I don't see why it is so difficult to understand.Video games are about playing a game and having fun. Interaction. During a cut-scene, no interaction can be made. So if there are too many of them, you don't have much interaction, and then it's more a movie than a game.
The reason it's puzzling is simple enough. RPG players are accustomed to the style of "play for awhile, sit and watch cutscenes, repeat". That's the basis for the entire genre. In fact, games that are very lightweight on plot get criticized because their plots are sparse and weak. This is why it's unusual for an RPG to be criticized for too MUCH plot - usually it is the other way around.
When someone says video games I think of what is still in mall arcades around here such as Pac-Man which is back as is Mega Pac-Man Ultra or something along those lines. When someone says RPG, I think of an action story, not as heavy on story as the Choose Your Own Adventure (hereafter CYOA) type but still more story then Pac-Man or a video game.
So yes maybe video games like Chop-lifter or whatever is popular in that realm nowadays are about simply playing a game and having fun just playing, but RPG’s are a different world from video games as are the CYOA from both video games and RPG’s even if sometimes people place them under the common name video game for easy reference.
So I agree with Nandemonai it is strange to hear of a game and confusing to hear of a game that is partly based on plot and story to be told to have less plot and story, after all it is not the same as the drop money in and play in the arcade type of game.
It’s not a video OR an RPG if it the interaction factor is limited to just walking down a corridor or a couple of rooms. Cut-scenes also shouldn’t hinder the interactivity of the game. Play some old-school RPGs and you’ll see what it should be.
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Originally posted by Benoit:
It's not a video OR an RPG if it the interaction factor is limited to just walking down a corridor or a couple of rooms. Cut-scenes also shouldn't hinder the interactivity of the game. Play some old-school RPGs and you'll see what it should be.
Well a video itself is a movie that is on disc, or VHS tape, or did you mean video game?
Old-school? How old-school are we talking about how many years back? My old-school might pre-date yours so I truly desire to be clear on what is meant by old-school.
From my knowledge and experience if people display what few have in this world, paitence, then those scenes will not hinder but enhance the game play experience by making the enjoyablity of the plot richer throught bringer more life to the characters.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 03-21-2004).]
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Well a video itself is a movie that is on disc, or VHS tape, or did you mean video game?
I meant video game.
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Old-school? How old-school are we talking about how many years back? My old-school might pre-date yours so I truly desire to be clear on what is meant by old-school.
In the console video game industry, an old-school RPG is an RPG from the 16-Bit era, or one with the same look and feel of that same era.
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From my knowledge and experience if people display what few have in this world, paitence, then those scenes will not hinder but enhance the game play experience by making the enjoyablity of the plot richer throught bringer more life to the characters.
There's a limit to that. Might as well just watch a move if the cut-scenes take 15 minutes each.
[This message has been edited by Benoit (edited 03-22-2004).]
J-list have the game up for order and have links to some really nice desktop wallpaper too.
Not the sort of thing you’d want your wife/girlfriend/mother to see though…
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Originally posted by Benoit:
There's a limit to that. Might as well just watch a move if the cut-scenes take 15 minutes each.
As I said for those with paitence this is not an issue, but if I am thinking of the same 'old school' RPG they were not 'true' RPG by today's definition and were heavy on the story and hidden 'in jokes'. Such examples include many of the Kings Quest poking fun at the old myths and fables, and Space Quest poking fun at any and all Sci-Fi that has ever appeared on the Silver Screen or the small box, and each had a story and a rich plot that allowed you to tell one from the other with some ease. They were moving toward the more cut-scenes when some of them continued to advance. In truth I don't think you can look at this in isolation, you have to look at the evolution and see why it is where it is now to understand partly why there are cut scenes of that length.
RPG's today for the most part, once more I did not say all, but most lack that story, those in-jokes expect against themselves because people are impatient and won't sit through it or the cut scenes to develop a plot and are easily offended and quick to sue if you make fun of their product. See since lots of text and set up is going out, I see cut scenes as being the avant garde way of doing the plot advancement and setup so even people that might not be able to read all of the language can at least get a sense of what is ongoing in the story, and if it takes 15 minutes people must learn paitence to wait if they truly want to play the game.
J-List already has the Horny Bunnies 2 up for pre-order??