Download games

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#21

Look at ITunes. Everything they sell could very easily be gotten for free on the Internet (and not everyone lives in an area where they need to fear the RIAA). A lot of people still buy from them instead of pirating. I’m not saying Peach Princess would see anywhere near that success, but the attractiveness of downloadable content for some people should not be underestimated, especially if there’s money to be saved. There are always those who wouldn’t mind being able to afford more games than they are with the current offers.

On a somewhat related note, on this very day the Norwegian ITunes store opens. While there are many who don’t appreciate the DRM embedded in the files, others surely appreciate downloading hard-to-get albums at less than half the cost of store buying (from a few posts I’ve read on other forums).

[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 05-10-2005).]

#22

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
[B] If that were so, sites hosting BitTorrent links would disappear almost as soon as they’ve appeared. If the downloads were hosted as BitTorrent links, with the company providing a constant seed to keep the torrent stable, additional bandwidth costs would likely be comparable to the costs of simply maintaining the site and this board. The potential great reduction in prices would likely multiply current sales, maintaining sufficient traffic to keep the torrents active as well. A direct download alternative could also be provided for those who don’t want to fuss with BitTorrent, with a small additional charge to encourage most people to use the BitTorrent link.

Wbandwidth does cost money, home bandwidth is cheap, but then again, what is your upload rate? Try offering a produckt with 29kbytes per second upload. Sure t may be unlimited, but its slow as hell. File hostings costs money.

And you cannot compare a single print came or even 100 prints to what you would make with a run of a b-game. Prces will be off by a long shot.
A t1 line is also way insufficient to offer downloadable software. You basically need to either rent server space at a warehouse with a connection to a backbone, or rent space for your own server on it.

[This message has been edited by smog (edited 05-10-2005).]

#23
quote:
Originally posted by smog:
[B]
Wbandwidth does cost money, home bandwidth is cheap, but then again, what is your upload rate? Try offering a produckt with 29kbytes per second upload. Sure t may be unlimited, but its slow as hell.

Hah, I can download over a GB in a day with BitTorrent. Hardly "slow as hell." My upload rate generally matches or exceeds that.

quote:
And you cannot compare a single print came or even 100 prints to what you would make with a run of a b-game. Prces will be off by a long shot.
A t1 line is also way insufficient to offer downloadable software. You basically need to either rent server space at a warehouse with a connection to a backbone, or rent space for your own server on it.

I should point out that gigabyte-sized files are frequently hosted on sites via BitTorrent links...and the sites provide the service for free! In this case the only draw on the site's bandwidth is the tracker, which can take up as little bandwidth as 1/1000 or 1/10,000 of the total bandwidth being used for the file transfers.

#24
quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
Look at ITunes. Everything they sell could very easily be gotten for free on the Internet (and not everyone lives in an area where they need to fear the RIAA). A lot of people still buy from them instead of pirating. I'm not saying Peach Princess would see anywhere near that success, but the attractiveness of downloadable content for some people should not be underestimated, especially if there's money to be saved. There are always those who wouldn't mind being able to afford more games than they are with the current offers.
Exactly. It's a matter of cost/benefit. If the cost is substantially low for the enduser, then the benefits of pirating go down and the risks of being caught go up. Supposably also the servers are more reliable than a torrent link.

As well there are people who want to get legitimate copies to support a company, but aren't willing to shell out $50. Most of those are people who buy games when they are in the bargain bin or close to it.

#25
quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
[B]Look at ITunes. Everything they sell could very easily be gotten for free on the Internet (and not everyone lives in an area where they need to fear the RIAA). A lot of people still buy from them instead of pirating. I'm not saying Peach Princess would see anywhere near that success, but the attractiveness of downloadable content for some people should not be underestimated, especially if there's money to be saved. There are always those who wouldn't mind being able to afford more games than they are with the current offers.

On a somewhat related note, on this very day the Norwegian ITunes store opens. While there are many who don't appreciate the DRM embedded in the files, others surely appreciate downloading hard-to-get albums at less than half the cost of store buying (from a few posts I've read on other forums).

I respectfully disagree. I think the iTunes situation is unique in the sense that iPod is a device that fans will revolve their schedule around. I don't own an iPod, but my understanding is that you can only input songs downloaded from iTunes store, rather than an another download site. People open their wallets for iTunes only because they love their iPods. I highly doubt they would pay to download a song to input on another music device.

#26
quote:
Originally posted by smog:
And you cannot compare a single print came or even 100 prints to what you would make with a run of a b-game. Prces will be off by a long shot.

How big a production run do you think a GC or a PP makes? The cost of printing doesn't go down unless you're order at least 1,000 copies. But that's still gonna cost 1500, excluding inserts. Then you got employees like Vagabond on the payroll to localize the game. And then the wholesaler (PCR) needs his cut, and then the retailer as well. If the retail price is $40, the retailer is paying $20 wholesale, and the game company is probably getting 1/2 that from the wholesaler, that's $10 per FoH sold that GC is getting back, meaning that they need to sell at least 150 copies wholesale to recoup the printing cost alone.

The point is that it costs a lot of money to produce a game for release in the English market.

#27
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
How big a production run do you think a GC or a PP makes? The cost of printing doesn't go down unless you're order at least 1,000 copies. But that's still gonna cost 1500, excluding inserts. Then you got employees like Vagabond on the payroll to localize the game. And then the wholesaler (PCR) needs his cut, and then the retailer as well. If the retail price is $40, the retailer is paying $20 wholesale, and the game company is probably getting 1/2 that from the wholesaler, that's $10 per FoH sold that GC is getting back, meaning that they need to sell at least 150 copies wholesale to recoup the printing cost alone.

The point is that it costs a lot of money to produce a game for release in the English market.

It depends really on several things you've not mentioned. How much advertising you do, how much cost goes into packaging and label, salary staff and other expensidtures, etc. Now the biggest markup is sually at the retailer's end and a lot of that comes from two things: shelf time and they know poeple will pay it.
#28
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
I respectfully disagree. I think the iTunes situation is unique in the sense that iPod is a device that fans will revolve their schedule around. I don't own an iPod, but my understanding is that you can only input songs downloaded from iTunes store, rather than an another download site. People open their wallets for iTunes only because they love their iPods. I highly doubt they would pay to download a song to input on another music device.

Actually, you don't need an iPod to buy music from iTunes. And iPod is not all that popular here in Norway. Music bought from the Norwegian store can be burned right on to CDs or simply stored as files on the PC or Mac, and it can be streamed from the computer to a stereo set. In fact, the Norwegian iTunes site is geared mostly towards being a legal way of downloading music, and less towards actually using an iPod for it. According to the site, the music you download can be transferred to and played on an infinite number of iPods and up to 5 PCs/Macs, and you can burn them to as many CDs as you want (for personal use only, of course). I don't know how the other iTunes site work, but I'm guessing it's somewhat similar to ours (barring any differences due to Norwegian laws).

Anyway, a downloading option would probably increase the number of sales for a number of reasons already mentioned earlier (cheap, no "compromising" boxes, no shipping time/taxes etc, no chance of Australian customs raiding the house, and more). Whether that would be enough to improve the net result... I don't know.

[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 05-10-2005).]

#29
quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
Whether that would be enough to improve the net result... I don't know.

You don't know? You don't know?! We want baseless speculation, not some lame cop-out like that! [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 05-10-2005).]

#30
quote:
Originally posted by Jinnai:
It depends really on several things you've not mentioned. How much advertising you do, how much cost goes into packaging and label, salary staff and other expensidtures, etc. Now the biggest markup is sually at the retailer's end and a lot of that comes from two things: shelf time and they know poeple will pay it.

I didn't mention advertising, etc. in order to SIMPLIFY the math. As for markup, the wholesaler is charging 1/2 the MSRP. The retailer may offer a discount on the MSRP, but you'll still end up paying roughly that amount when you factor in cost of shipping.

Let's backtrack a bit on the printing issue. Some of you may be thinking to yourself, "I've got a dvd burner. why not just burn the games inhouse instead of sending them out to the printers?" There are a number of problems with doing it inhouse. First, equipment. How many computers would be needed to burn out 1,000 copies in, let's say, a month? And you would still need labor (i.e. someone sitting in front of the computers to insert/take out the copies). Then you gotta have the discs printed. Those do-it-yourself printed CD stickers/labels are cheesy and unprofessional; but let's say you still do it that way. What about inserts? Do you have the equipment to print them? What about cost of ink replacement?

Second, quality control. What if the disc you use to make a copy on has a flaw? It gets ditched because it's useless. And if you're printing in-house, you have to make sure that each copy is burned perfectly, with no flaw. Otherwise, you would end up replacing it for the customer, and eat some shipping cost in doing so.

Third, packaging. Still gotta get them shrinkwrapped, somehow. And it'll cost money to do so.

The bottom line is that it'll cost money whether the printing is done inhouse, or with a print shop. But with the printer, they can get it done much faster, and professionally too.

[This message has been edited by Ecchifan (edited 05-10-2005).]

#31
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
I didn't mention advertising, etc. in order to SIMPLIFY the math. As for markup, the wholesaler is charging 1/2 the MSRP. The retailer may offer a discount on the MSRP, but you'll still end up paying roughly that amount when you factor in cost of shipping.]
I have seen some of the wholesaler pricelists. They aren't exactly 1/2 the MSAP. Hourglass of Summer FE was wholesaling at $14.81. Retails for $29.99. True its close, but it'd be closer it it was $29.49.
#32

I guess I’m old school in that I want the tangible product in my hands. I like having the art work from the box & manual. Plus, when I finish playing a game, I remove it from my computer. Not really wanting to have to get it off a hosted server when I get the urge to play it again and I do replay the games.

Now playing - tunes for a wood elf and lemons to dance to.

#33
quote:
I don't own an iPod, but my understanding is that you can only input songs downloaded from iTunes store, rather than an another download site.

I talked to a classmate today who owns an iPod, and what you say isn't true. You can put songs from other places on it too.
#34
quote:
Originally posted by woodelf:
* Dance *
* Dance *
* Slip Crash *
* Pain -- blood -- *
No that's lemon Juice ...
The lemons broke my fall ,
never play elf tunes again while I'm in my tree.

But it was fun, wasn't it? Now where did I put that music again.

#35

lets take a quick look at the problem of piracy , sure downloads will make it easier to pirate the game but they will also lower the cost potentially attracting people away from piracy , although some would like to demonize them many pirates do so out of genuine distaste for pricing or lack of funds , both groups have potential conversion through this method and those who still feel the item is overpriced or dont have the money or even those who just pirate for the sake of it , they will still pirate the product sure but they’d never have bought it so whats the loss ?

In the case of bishoujo games I seriously doubt many additional buyers would be gained from the sudden dissapearance of piracy. However what are the realistic chances of limiting piracy of peapri products? No matter what is instituted be it V-mate or CD protection its almost zero , if one player has access to a working bought copy he has access to all the input and data required by the game to function correctly , and whilst we retain full control over the output our computers produce it will always be possible to replicate these inputs and the game data on another computer , even if the game seeks internet verification whilst the game receives no actual content online (i.e. an MMORPG) this external input can be mimiced requiring the original user has access to an example signal which they must.

Basically however hard you make it to pirate it will still be possible and if its possible it will probably happen soon enough as with V-mate and all it takes is one dedicated computer scientist to put in a little spare time to make it available to everyone.

Basically Piracy sucks but fighting it , particularly on the scale PeaPri can manage will only hurt them , if they give up and go for a private bittorent type distribution , sure pirates will love it but many of the pirates with morals (believe it or not their the majority many just like reading proudhon) will lose what they saw as thier justification and support something they like for a reasonable price at a convenient access point , without the embarrassing risk of someone you’d rather not find out about your bishoujo habit collecting the mail.

#36

I am very much against the idea; I want to have it “physically,” as well; I want to own the game.

Utilisation of this system for demos, would be a great idea, though.

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#37

I’m going to state my opinion simply. If it boosts the market for the games, I’ll support it, as long as they also sell actual CD’s and DVD’s as well. I’ll always buy a hard copy. Downloaded software is a risk that I am not willing to take yet.

#38

well, if you’re willing to try a demo… grin

http://www.hanakogames.com/summer.shtml

my stupid short “Look, it’s NOT hard to make a b-game engine!” project is finally finished-ish.

As mentioned before, gameplay is similar to Snow Drop - you will NOT get a girl your first time through, you will have to pay attention to who is where when and slowly figure out how to find your roommate’s path. However, you’re almost guaranteed to run into SOME character at every time period, so the more you play, the more you know…

Now, back to work on my RPG!

#39

You actually made a Bishuojo game?!

"claps hands"

Bravo! I should give that a try. Though I would not buy it unless it was physical. Personally I never buy anything that’s downloadable unless the quailty was obviously so good and I could never get a hard copy. As someone that actually has bought a lot of shareware “remember the old term!”

Seeing this actually wants me to make a game o_O Though I have NO artistic sense and no programming skills.

#40

Well, you can buy one of papillon’s games, and then burn it on CD-R. That’s your physical copy.