Gender Issues and Princess Waltz

Warning - massive spoilers, stay out of this thread if you haven’t played the game.

Me, I’ve actually only seen one ending so far. I badly need to get Suzushiro’s ending to check if anything along what I’m about to discuss is covered, although I doubt it. I also haven’t quite managed to read ALL of the general PW thread, but I’ve seen enough comments from different angles that I wanted to raise a thread specifically for discussing sex and gender.

Namely - Is Chris a boy or a girl?

Physically, it’s obvious what set of equipment she’s got.
Mentally, he makes it clear that he does not have any secret traditionally-feminine personality hidden underneath his princely persona. He is not in disguise. Chris is Chris and always has been.
Emotionally/sexually, it’s extremely unclear. E does kiss Suzushiro (and dammit, I really wish there’d been a CG for that), although eir mind is more on Arata at the time. E is fighting in the waltz to become a ‘real’ boy, and then presumably to marry a girl and have babies with her. E does have sex with Arata, but appears highly conflicted about it.

It’s not just fear of being weak that makes Chris reject a female persona, because there are plenty of ass-kicking princesses in this game. Chris simply isn’t a princess.

As a bisexual with an interest in genderqueers none of this is a problem for me, and I even wish the game had played more with the ambiguity. This may be an issue of translation, but once Arata finds out he exclusively refers to Chris in his narration with female pronouns, even when talking to people who don’t know, and never seems to worry about slipping up. Or about whether the female pronoun is the correct one. And yet Chris is masculine enough that it caused problems for some players, and Arata doesn’t seem to struggle with the attraction in the way that the players do - the conflicting thoughts of Chris-girl in his bed and Chris-guybuddy at his side, or to deal with what would have happened if there had been no plot twist and Chris had won the Waltz and become a physical boy.

There’s also the issue of how Suzushiro feels about her boyfriend turning out to be physically female. I haven’t done her path, but she appears to be still devoted to Chris. What are her expectations of a future there? Do her feelings change at all, or is a prince in a girl’s body still a prince?

Then there’s the matter of Demon Dude possessing a body which is technically female, and I don’t think that was brought up at all… No one referred to HIM with female pronouns even though the body he was in was female.

(Plotwise, if they’d expanded things a bit, I would have liked there to be an option to back off and stay Best Buddies after the initial accidental sex (which I would have rewritten because it was an awful scene) and to be able from there to progress to proper romance with the other princesses, but hey, can’t have everything.)

So - is a girl a boy if he acts bishonen enough, despite the body? Is a boy a girl if she dresses the part? Is it “gay” for a guy to have sex with a girl who acts like a guy?

(I tend to fall into ‘your gender is what you say it is’ so if Chris says he’s a boy, he’s a boy. But then, I don’t CARE if someone’s a boy or a girl, so my opinion on the matter is different from some of you players out there…)

If this subject is too touchy for a full discussion here I’ll take it off to wacky feminist blogs. :slight_smile: Do try to be polite for the GLBT readers!

[color=green]Bokukko[/color]. Example: Souseiseki from Rozen Maiden. Do want.

[color=red]Trap[/color]. Example: Bridget from Guilty Gear. Don’t want.

Now in real life, hetero males are usually freaked out and turned off by males who are indistinguishable as girls (bishonen for lack of a better word), because it pops their sexual comfort zone and damages psychological ego. See the common place revulsion to traps. However even the most hardcore hetero male would continue an intimate relationship with a guy who looks female, for as long as the “bishonen” can maintain that illusion and the relationship stays healthy. It’s all psychological after all.

In most cases: Actual Physical Sex > Presented Sexual Personality. However until actual sex can be determined, presented sexual personality can supersede until revealed. That’s why tomboys are sexy, even to manly men.

Good examples of real life traps would be Mana, Hizaki, Miyavi, and Teru: who can be as pretty as any real girl when put in the right dress and makeup.

I’m not so sure about “usual”, which is why I brought it up. :slight_smile:

I’ve seen a number of people, both here and elsewhere, say that they’re perfectly willing to accept a ‘trap’ as a girl, while considering themselves to be heterosexual males. (There’s the “Everyone is gay for Bridget!” fanclubs if nothing else…) And I’ve seen a number of people put off by Chris because she acts like a guy, beyond even the standard bokkuko*, and that makes the relationship FEEL homosexual to them… and others protesting because Chris doesn’t immediately put on a skirt and “accept her fate as a female” just because you’ve shown interest in her.

But for other people, it’s ALL about the penis or lack thereof. I don’t think there’s a real consensus on this.

Certainly, the story we hear most in the news is when some guy finds out his girlfriend isn’t 100% female (although honestly many people aren’t 100% male or female and don’t even know it) and violently freaks out. There are plenty of cases where someone finds out and doesn’t freak out, but this doesn’t make the news because why would it?

  • Okay, I don’t know every bokkuko out there, but I’m largely comparing Chris to Utena, who has some similar issues. But even when she’s a prince, Utena is definitely a girl. She’s just a girl prince. Very different feel to her character than Chris’.

Yes, that’s it for me. I may have or not have affinity with a girl/guy basing on her/his personality, but I don’t think I would ever be able to have a sexual relationship with a guy. And I don’t think I would be bothered by a girl dressing or acting like a male (although I wouldn’t probably come to like a girl too masculine). In the end, the most important factor for me is the physical one.

I think I was more disturbed by Chris than by the trap in Moonshine (great VN that I recomend to everyone).
So just like Narg, I think it’s more psychological… “it” has to look like a girl. When Chris is naked, it reduces the “wut ?” feeling at least.

Speaking as a heterosexual male, I didn’t have any problem with the sex scenes with Chris or the prospect of a relationship between him/her and Arata. I found the reactions of the classmates who thought they were in a male/male relationship to be pretty amusing. In my relationships, I’m usually one in the more stereotypically feminine position, ie, my girlfriend is the one who ‘wears the pants,’ to use a somewhat sexist expression, so a girlfriend who acts a lot like a guy is not really an issue for me. I would note that Chris does not act particularly ‘masculine’ during sex, which is one more reason that I didn’t have a problem with it.

I’m not sure where I fall on this. If Chris had had a penis, I would probably have mentally marked the game as yaoi and quit playing, or at least skipped the ero-scenes. IRL, however, I can’t say that finding out that a girl I was dating had a penis would be an automatic dealbreaker for me. If she looked like a girl other than that and identified as a girl and the rest of the relationship was good, I don’t think I’d have a big problem with it.

I think there’s something in Suzushiro’s path were she says that Chris’ gender does not matter to her, although it’s possible I’m remembering something from the summary of the radio drama someone posted here awhile back. There is a picture in the art book of Suzushiro and Chris lying on a bed together in lingerie, though I don’t know whether you can draw anything about the characters from that or whether it’s just fanservice. FWIW, Suzushiro looks a lot happier about the situation than Chris.

I wonder about what’s going to happen after the ending too. It seems clear that Chris and Arata intend to remain together and rule together. Does this mean that they’re going to get married? Is Chris going to ‘accept’ being a girl and begin identifying as one? If not, what will happen to their relationship? Eventually at least one of them is going to have to produce an heir with somebody. I would have liked to see these questions addressed. My assumption would be that Chris and Arata get married, as that seems like the most ‘fairy tale’ ending to the story, but realistically, I think it would have to be more complicated than that.

But what if you discovered the cute girl you fell in love, was never a girl, but actually an ultra effeminate guy? This scenario generally has a more lasting “negative” psychological impact on heterosexual guys. More so than a scenario if they discovered the muscle head they watch football with and get drunk on weekends after watching a boxing match, was actually a girl, and still wanna hang out as best beer buddies. In the case of the former, it becomes a real psychological test if you’re willing to pursue a homosexual relationship in the name of true love ¬ñ thus making you bisexual. Of course it’s hard to know what’s real or faked, but Jerry Springer covers this sort of stuff. A very hand few turn out positive, but these two are the usual results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQ_SJc9FlU#t=4m00s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BYIZKhBvrY#t=4m30s

Obviously, not pretty to witness. Makes good ratings though. :expressionless:

Again, careful with the ‘general’! Jerry Springer is not demonstrative of average mainstream people! :slight_smile: The bad results definitely happen. Good results definitely happen as well. I don’t know if there are any studies showing what the actual percentages of acceptance are.

(And as far as guys not being that upset to discover that their ‘buddy’ has a female body - seen Boys Don’t Cry? Again, I don’t think that’s a NORMAL reaction, but these things happen…)

But then we also come back around to the initial question - what defines someone being a girl vs being a feminine guy?

In anime, magic can change your sex and turn you into a guy in a girl’s body, or vice-versa. (Although oddly, I can’t think of many cases in anime where someone undergoing an involuntary sex-change tries to HIDE it and pretend to be their ‘real’ gender as opposed to adopting a new persona temporarily. I may be missing the obvious though.)

Is Shichiou in Chris’s body a girl? No one calls him that.

In the real world, you can be born with a variety of conditions that make you less than completely male or female to begin with, and you can undergo various medical procedures to change the equipment you have. The dividing line is a lot fuzzier than many people think it is. If a person has some male bits and some female ones, isn’t it only personality that determines their gender?

True.

I don’t think there’s any acceptance studies, but attempts to see sexual orientation across the population has been tried.

Psychologically I’d say it’s up to the individual interpreting. If I think a person is woman enough to be a woman, then she’s a woman to me until I think otherwise. What is a man? Dracula thinks we’re a miserable pile of secrets. :wink: Biologically there’s a whole field of study - but what people believe, and what science tells them, obviously don’t have to be the same for people to do what people do.

Personally for me: I can’t see myself loving another man sexually. I find the idea repugnant to do. That doesn’t mean I find men who like men to be repugnant (in fact I support it all the way - more women for me :wink:): just that for me, I can’t willing do that kind of stuff. Of course there in lies the hypocrisy, because I’m into a threesome with bisexual twin sisters. I find sisterly twincest sexually stimulating, but brotherly twincest the total opposite. It’s all in my screwed up head. :o To me a woman is a born normalized XX chromosome person. All other chromosome mixes are everything but a woman and not for me. Persona isn’t an issue with me. It’s about the physical body (no male parts on that woman at all; and that’s how she was born). I admit that’s vapid and hallow… but that’s my interpretation.

EDIT
tl;dr - It’s not gender roles that is important to me (tomboys are sexy), but rather the actual gender (no doods plz).

Man, I’m over with bokukko nowadays. Only orekko are enough for me.

Unfortunately I’ve only found like 3 in all the eroges I’ve played, which is pretty depressing!

While we are talking about PW, I’d like to say that that game definitely puts the female side at the backseat.Angela, who has been the strongest princess, gets defeated by the baddie in just a few moments, who goes on to to abuse her. Chris seriously pissed me 1 thing-He keeps on implying a woman can’t rule over a kingdom,or more generally woman cant control
Anyway, for me a person has to be genuine. I’d have no issues with people having their styles or belief systems, although I have to admit, somethings are quite “amusing”.

Oh! That one is neat, I never noticed that. I guess it was because he never had a chance to do anything else besides showing how terribly crazy he is or how pathetic he is to lose things at a point where, even Joker can defeat Batman.

Disagree strongly. If a person has a dick, he’s a guy unless we are talking about exceptions.Today medicine has progressed so a person can choose his/her sex. There are 3 situations

  1. When a person feels he is in the wrong body
  2. When a person has a sort of inclination or an infatuation towards the other sex in more than just sexual interest.
  3. When a person has to act like the opposite sex due to circumstances. Joan Of Arc used to dress up in traditional knight armor.
    So depending on what kind of a personality a person has, his actions should be seen that way. What’s lame is rejecting what a person is, for example a woman who looks,acts and dresses like a guy 100% of the time and complaints that people don’t see her as a female.
    Anyways its not something that I care about how other people think or act. Thats just my perspective on things. The society is how it has evolved.

Well, gender and sex are, of course, two very distinct things. You can be one sex and identify - and be identified - as the other gender … not even so uncommon. Mind you, this is not the same as homosexuality.

This is pretty much my reaction. If I knew the person as a girl, she behaved and identified as a girl, looked like a girl when dressed, then the penis could be an obstacle - maybe - but probably not a deal breaker. (there are certain requirements, physically, I would have, however, such as the female keeping herself hairless … as a hairy penis is common to the “manly” image and would turn me off … but, on that line of thought I’m rarely fond of pubic hair on women either) It would be important that she maintained that gender role even after the discovery and it isn’t something I’d probably be comfortable talking with her about at length. (conversations on the matter, if they came up, would be short - especially early on)

Keep in mind that I am heterosexual, but do not believe that having sex with a female gendered penis owner would make me otherwise. I am comfortable enough in my sexuality to accept that there are circumstances where questions of gender vs sex are acceptable for debate. (in fact I’m so comfortable in my sexuality that it bothers some of my male friends … I like to tease “If god hadn’t wanted to account for the possibility, men wouldn’t have a prostate.”)

In the real world I can be attracted - non sexually - to people entirely for psychological and intellectual reasons. This has got people believing me homosexual in the past, because when psychologically attracted to a guy I will behave in some ways as one would around a girl - behaving flirtatiously, doing things for them, behaving as though I were looking forward to their company … yet these are people I would never consider having sex with because they are men and - in all but the one situation we are discussing here - I don’t find men sexually attractive. (I could never hold or kiss a man - it wouldn’t turn me on … and as a healthy person I have considered and wondered as any healthy person does as their sexuality matures … I’ve even watched male porn, curious if it would turn me on … and the answer has always been, no.)

In PW, I was actually less fond of Chris when he started trying to be a girl … he lost his confidence and became much less attractive a person, male or female.

It is, doubtlessly, a complex issue.

I also was a bit disturbed by Chris and the sex scenes with her. But then Lun-Lun came along and I forgot everything about it. :slight_smile:

And that’s all I have to say on this subject, not really a fan of gender-related discussions. :mrgreen:

Greetings everyone. I consider myself heter, but I really have no problem with gender issues being a part of the storyline. For me, my interest in such games as found on JastUSA usually revolves around the storyline…the plot. Plots that interest me, such as found in Crescendo, I will get, plot lines that don’t interest me, such as Water Closet, I wont purchase… I’m a story driven person. The characters, the development, are prime important…

Of course, as with Water Closet, the very plotline that is found there…eh, just isn’t my type…the scenes are…well…blah.

Now, I will admit that what I have purchased tends to be hetero/harem storylines…but it isn’t due to some heterosexual fear toward gays…plenty of gay friends…but this discussion kind of makes me curious as to the response toward Cat Girl Alliance…futanari being a part of the storyline. Of course I dont think I wont purchase this story due to the futanari portion of the storyline, the art work looks great, the story is interesting…ergo…I’ll get it…

I’m coming from a different place than most. I’m a gay male, not the least bit bi. I have in the past met a few female to male trannys and found them sort of attractive. I like to think I’m open minded, but if hypotheticly, I fell in love with a transman I really don’t know how the sex would go. I can imagine the relationship being good if he was really identifying as a guy but if there was sex I wouldn’t want to see any lady parts lol
I actually had an ex who talked about wanting to maybe have a sex change to be a woman. He had a lot of identity issues so who knows if he was really trans or not.
I didn’t know that much about Princess Waltz but the gender stuff makes it sound interesting. Maybe I can get somebody to buy it for me for my BDay

Well, we run into a question of definitions here. What makes someone an ultra effeminate guy, as opposed to a girl with a penis? Is someone who identifies as a girl and looks like a girl a guy just because she has a penis? To me the answer is no, but it’s obviously a grey area. I would not get into a relationship with anyone who identified as a guy in the first place. If I had a crush on someone who looked a girl but I found out was a guy, that would be the end of the crush.

To me, it comes down to two things. On a psychological level, it’s crucial to me that she identify as a girl. On a physical level, she has to look (to me) like a girl, except for the penis, otherwise I’m not going to feel any sexual attraction, and that is a sine qua non for a romantic relationship to me. This is inevitably going to be in the eye of the beholder. I might think someone looks like a girl with a penis, while you might think the same person looks like a man with breasts. No way to be objective about this. I wouldn’t call this hypothetical relationship a homosexual relationship, nor do I identify as bi, but if you disagree, I’m not going to say you’re wrong. As I said, this is a huge gray area.

While I didn’t find Chris attractive in the least, I didn’t really have any problem with her relationships with any of the characters. The reverse, a guy masquerading as a girl, would be rather repugnant. Key here I guess would be whether the guy was making/accepting sexual advances (to guys) in the guise of a girl. To me, that seems deceptive and wrong. On one hand, going halfway and clearly being a guy dressing like a woman would be creepy. On the other hand, playing the part so well that you’re indistinguishable from a woman would be less creepy–until you start making/accepting sexual advances from those that aren’t aware of the guise.

For whatever reason, I find myself much more tolerant of lesbianism than male homosexuality, when it comes to sexual display. The former merely doesn’t interest me, while the latter I find repugnant. Social programming at work, I guess. Overall, I don’t really care about either in the “don’t ask, don’t tell” sort of way.

True story…got a guy who comes to the store, transvestite…all of us roll our eyes when he comes in…not because we are intolerant toward sexual p.o.v.s…but because the man looks like Sylvester Stallone in drag. Now, my philosophy is that if you really don’t look like something…as this chap doesn’t at all look like a woman…then I really cannot take it seriously. Then again, there’s a lot of things these days I dont take seriously.

I haven’t got a problem with a person having a sexual identity. As a heterosexual, I really do not find myself interested in any homosexual or bisexual activities. Know plenty of gays as friends, but to each their own, so to speak. In terms of English Bishoujo games, I am of course not interested in Yaoi titles. Then again, as stated before, dont care much for titles like Water Closet. I didn’t care much for X-Change simply because the games are too short…

I guess my thoughts is that “how is the situation being played out in the storyline?” In what way is the situation being developed? As in the Cat Girl Alliance, this is a title that is centered around futanari…and if I am correct, one of the main villains in the Bible Black series could be considered “futanari.” This futanari isn’t bothersome to me simply because the storylines of both are engaging storylines that have much to be interested in.

In a healthy relationship both parties owe it to the other to inform them of any ‘secret’ that they know might cause the other to have huge regrets, BEFORE things get really serious. Anything that can’t be told by looking at you.

Whether that secret be “I’m pregnant by someone else”, “I’m actually your boss’s mother/sister/daughter”, “I’m half-alien” (in a culture where being alien is a big deal), “I’m very anti-abortion so if there’s a pregnancy we’re keeping it (or the reverse)”, “I am deeply religious and therefore cannot love anyone who won’t convert”, “I’m trans”, OR “I am repulsed by trans people”… a good relationship ought to clear this stuff up while there’s still time to back out, not spring it on you at the last minute.

(Of course, much much drama in fiction comes from people NOT doing this and dealing with the consequences.)

In older-period fiction there used to be huge dramatic scenes for a character to shamefully reveal that they were actually one-fourth black passing as white. It was a big deal then, and something a partner could feel betrayed by if they didn’t know…

Oh, speaking of gender issues, there’s a fanfic I’m fond of which has a plotline involving a girl currently in a male body (magic) and a girl disguised as a boy. And they’ve both been flirting with each other, passing themselves off as gay men while thinking of themselves as girls who like guys. Then after a traumatic incident they get carried away in the moment and end up having sex… and are then shocked and horrified afterwards as they learn the truth and basically end up killing each other in an ANGST-TASTROPHE. Beautifully messed-up.

(What can I say, I dig angst.)

Chris, is a “bad” reverse-Trap… I mean, it’s so obvious that “he” is a Girl.
I didn’t look at screenshot or review about Princess Waltz before playing it (Spoiler Avoidance Mode On ^^), and i knew from the very beginning that “he” was a girl.
And seriously she act like a Girl a lot, a Boyish Girl but a Girl.

In contrary, Shizuma from Hinatabokko totally fooled me.I never suspected one bit that “he” was a girl, when i entered her path it was like that

  • Yaoi Route, in a “Bishoujo” Game?
  • errr…Not interested… Oh well for the sake of Full Save CG…
    5 minutes later
  • WTF “HE” is Girl???!!! :shock: