Hentai and Bishoujo

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#1

So, the terms get thrown around a lot… I thought I’d stir the pot and see if I got some opinions…

Amongst the uneducated masses (at least the ones that have something of a clue), there is a prevelant idea that hentai and bishoujo are the same thing–shoot, I’ve even seen the word hentai get used on this BBS to refer to the games, and not the sex scenes.

One question that comes to mind is: are the hentai scenes really necessary to make it good bishoujo? For example, I’ve already seen the American production company, MegaTech, dissed because they tried to cater to a mass market by making R-rated games, and I read a scathing review of Himeya Soft’s Eve: Burst Error because there are no hentai scenes in it–just underwear shots, and the sex is all "off camera."

But I enjoyed playing my MegaTech games (as silly as it may seem), and the plot of Eve kept me riveted. I don’t think the hentai was necessary at all… just the bishoujo.

On the other hand, some hentai, even while “extreme,” can further a good story line… G-Collections’ Chain: the Lost Footsteps contains a brutal rape scene that truly bothers me–but at the same time, it makes the death of an otherwise fairly flat, insignificant, and otherwise unsympathetic character more poignant and dramatic. In other words, it lends impact to the story, rather than simply being a rape scene.

Ultimately, I’m a “middle-of-the-road” kind of guy. I personally don’t care if my bishoujo contains hentai (although, granted, I’d like to see the girl get naked…), although I think it would be kind of nice if the publishers could give the consumer some kind of indication of what they were in for. The only outcome I can ever be sure of is on a dating sim… at the end, if I get one of the girls, there will be a love-making scene.

As I said… feel free to comment or opine

#2

Hmm, we’ve sort of talked about this at various times over the years…

Well, that’s one of the purposes of this BBS, to help correct misconceptions. And I know some of the people here are quite anal about using the proper terminology. It’s unfortunate when terms from another language gets ported over into the English world and becomes something “a little off” in int’s meaning. Best we can do is help to correct when we can.

Now for the question. In my opinion, no, the H elements aren’t necessary for a good game. Kana is the game most people point to. I personally think it would have been just as good without the sex scenes. But as you say, sometimes it adds impact to the story. I felt Yuka’s storyline in Crescendo is also a good example of when it’s used to intensify the mood of the storyline, rather than being used only for tittilation purposes.

shrug It sort of depends on what’s your main purpose for playing the games. If you’re in it for the sex, then of course it’s going to be important that it’s in there. If you’re in it for the story, then the existance of a sex scene, in and of itself isn’t important, it’s in how does or doesn’t the scene flow and further the storyline.

#3

I actually thought that the sex in Kana–at least between Taka and Kana–kind of made the story a little more poignant. It also brought out the sort of “drag-me-into-it,” half-hearted relationship between Taka and… oh… what’s-her-name–I can’t remember the other lead female off the top of my head, it’s been too long since I ran through the game. As you say, the story could have been told without the sex, but I thought that Kana was a good example of good sex-use in a bishoujo game.

I haven’t played Crescendo, yet, but I think I’m going to have to, since I’ve had several people say that it’s pretty good–it may be worth a shot to give it a try, since it sounds like the story line is solid.

Sorry if I’m dragging out an old topic–hey, give me a break, I’m new to the list --but I’m not trying to give an education on terminology… If someone wants to call 'em hentai games, live it up! On the other hand, it will ultimately confuse some of those other people out there that everyone here seems to want to educate to the idea that we’re not all sukebe

#4
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
I actually thought that the sex in Kana--at least between Taka and Kana--kind of made the story a little more poignant. (...) As you say, the story could have been told without the sex, but I thought that Kana was a good example of good sex-use in a bishoujo game.

I fully agree with what you mentioned with Kana, and the other female lead is Yumi.

There are some games that come to mind right away that exist only because of the sex and less at least of those ported to English (is that the right term) that fall under the category Kana and some of the Crescendo endings fall under in terms of games that might not need these scenes to still be a great game.

I kind of think that is why some people don't understand they are not the same thing. There are not enough known and publicized examples of games where you can at least arguably take out the hentai and still have a good bishoujo game, more examples might allow people to see the two words as different. There are also perhaps far too many examples that are pushed to the public's attention of where the entire game, some might say, is basically one long sex scene, such as Secret Wives Club and Do You Like Horny Bunnies? 1 and 2.

At least that is part of my thinking on why in English the words are often confused in the translation, not enough time has been given to show why one is one and another is another through clear examples and people just don't get it therefore until told.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 06-21-2004).]

#5

Hmm, is there a new trend in the horizon? This is the second newbie who brings up this kind of thread.
…I was the first. You might want to read this:
http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001819.html

#6

Well, you’re the first that you know of. It’s been brought up a few times before.

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精神 の 神

#7
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
As you say, the story could have been told without the sex, but I thought that Kana was a good example of good sex-use in a bishoujo game.

I do agree that it was a good sex-use. I am rather curious to see how the non-adult version comes out though. I have enough faith in the writers that they'll still do a good job.

quote:
Sorry if I'm dragging out an old topic--hey, give me a break, I'm new to the list [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

I was just teasing you Wolfson-san. There's about a half-dozen topics that pop up every so often. Piracy, mosaics, characters ages, etc... It's good for the newer members to talk and discuss and hopefully pick up something. Plus, there are times that a completely new point or idea that comes up. Sometimes, I just get a little tired of going over topics again and again... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

#8

Yeah go get cresendo the story and plot is very good, especially if you like first love stories and high school agnst.

#9
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
I fully agree with what you mentioned with Kana, and the other female lead is Yumi.

Thanks... I don't know why I couldn't remember that, it's one of my favorite names--it always reminds me of "yummy." But then, after enough games, there are so many names that I tend to only remember my favorite characters...

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
There are some games that come to mind right away that exist only because of the sex and less at least of those ported to English (is that the right term) that fall under the category Kana and some of the Crescendo endings fall under in terms of games that might not need these scenes to still be a great game.

I'd have to agree with you in terms of the types of games that are being picked for the English market... I guess someone figures that Americans are all perverts [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Of course, I'll be the first to admit that, if it weren't for the fact that I was getting to see nudity, I wouldn't have been lured into bishoujo in the first place...

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
I kind of think that is why some people don't understand they are not the same thing. There are not enough known and publicized examples of games where you can at least arguably take out the hentai and still have a good bishoujo game, more examples might allow people to see the two words as different. There are also perhaps far too many examples that are pushed to the public's attention of where the entire game, some might say, is basically one long sex scene, such as Secret Wives Club and Do You Like Horny Bunnies? 1 and 2.

Again, I agree... of course, again, I've got my share of mindless hentai that I enjoy, so I can't claim pure motives. But, at the same time, what actually made me a fan of bishoujo was that the first game I played had a story, and only through playing the game could I unravel what was really going on. The sex almost became secondary, and in some cases, I found myself mouse-clicking my way through sex scenes just to get back to the story.

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
At least that is part of my thinking on why in English the words are often confused in the translation, not enough time has been given to show why one is one and another is another through clear examples and people just don't get it therefore until told.

Well, perhaps... Americans are also just horribly dense when it comes to foreign languages sometimes, and don't bother understanding what words really mean. And in the case of bishoujo, it might actually mean dabbling into a taboo area for some people to understand what is going on. In short, there are just plain some people who don't want to see the difference.

#10
quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
I was just teasing you Wolfson-san. There's about a half-dozen topics that pop up every so often. Piracy, mosaics, characters ages, etc... It's good for the newer members to talk and discuss and hopefully pick up something. Plus, there are times that a completely new point or idea that comes up. Sometimes, I just get a little tired of going over topics again and again... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Not to worry... I'm mature enough (or is that old enough--I can't remember anymore [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] ) not to take umbrage at something trivial like that... I was still going to say my piece [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Many of the topics you mentioned are interesting to me, and, of course, are new to me, since I just discovered a whole nest of like-minded people who have been discussing these things for a while now. So, if the list looks like it's getting slow, or if I'm sitting around bored, you'll have to put up with me for a while expounding on my thoughts about... whatever. I figure some people will just ignore it, and some people will jump in and offer me their opinions--even if they have discussed it before--and heck... occassionally, there might be some other newbie on the list thinking about these things who isn't as outspoken, but would be interested in the topic. What ever... as long as there is air, philosophers will be wondering why it's there [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

#11
quote:
Originally posted by wanfu2k1:
Yeah go get cresendo the story and plot is very good, especially if you like first love stories and high school agnst.

It's on my "To Do" list... Although sometimes I have trouble with high school stories--but that's because it was soooo long ago [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] On the other hand, it brings back memories [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

#12
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
I'd have to agree with you in terms of the types of games that are being picked for the English market... I guess someone figures that Americans are all perverts Of course, I'll be the first to admit that, if it weren't for the fact that I was getting to see nudity, I wouldn't have been lured into bishoujo in the first place...

It's not just you. The reason the games are like $80 in Japan is because there's sex in them. Key's latest game - Clannad - is non-adult; because of this they reduced the MSRP. (Key = creators of Kanon and Air.)

#13
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
Well, perhaps... Americans are also just horribly dense when it comes to foreign languages sometimes, and don't bother understanding what words really mean. And in the case of bishoujo, it might actually mean dabbling into a taboo area for some people to understand what is going on. In short, there are just plain some people who don't want to see the difference.

Well this all goes back, I think, to the fact the U.S. is one of the few countries in the world that does not start teaching a second language before High School in almost all cases and then after Freshmen, first year, of college/university, it is rarely mandatory to continue taking the language or using it for that matter.

I have a good friend that moved to Canada when she was younger and some of her classes from the start were taught in French, some English, (okay she moved to a predominately French speaking area of Ontario but still they taught classes in English and French) so from about 4th or so grade on she was learning two languages. Meanwhile my school is trying to teach us all the different names for the Civil War, War Between the States, War of Northern Aggression, War for Southern Independence, and whatever else it can be called and never once mentioning other languages.

That is why I think a lot of Americans are horrible dense about foreign languages and some have the "Calvin idea" from the old Calvin and Hobbes strip which is something along the lines of "Everyone should speak English or just shut up". Perhaps starting to teach a second language sooner, even if it is not one where a question like this comes up, Americans would be more open minded and a lot more willing to learn a new word's meaning while not being so quick as to just go with the easiest path of drawing labels that might not be true. I think with more examples those maybe combined with this love of learning a new language they would be quicker to learn it since they have a wider range of examples in terms of the games the terms would apply too in this case.

Also perhaps since it would be a new word in another language this urge to find the true meaning would even extend into a taboo area such as this seems to be to many people. Though I still find this a strange taboo area since without it none of them would be here to label it taboo, I often wonder if they see that irony.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 06-22-2004).]

#14
quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
Sometimes, I just get a little tired of going over topics again and again... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
I am just the same... Won't bother truly replying to this thread because I answered to such a question hundreds of times...

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
I guess someone figures that Americans are all perverts.
If "loving sex" equals "is a pervert", well, according to this article, "Americans ranked No. 1 at 124 times a year" (in the frequency of sex) when "Japan ranked dead last" with "the average Japanese (having) sex just 36 times a year". ^_-
(Wait... Isn't sex supposed to be evil? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img])

quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
The reason the games are like $80 in Japan is because there's sex in them. Key's latest game - Clannad - is non-adult; because of this they reduced the MSRP.
No, Nande, you got it reversed. $80 is not the price of such games in Japan, because there's sex in it; it is the normal price for games. "Clannad" was first intended to be released to a similar price; however it got a lot of protests/complaints because it doesn't have adult scenes... and not even voices. Just think about it. There will be a console port; that console port will be non-adult (since it's on console), voiced, with additional stuff (omake, stories or characters)... and less expensive (since console games are less expensive). Usually, PC gamers (who support the game in its initial release) ONLY have over console gamers that their game is... adult. And perhaps is released sooner. Considering how long "Clannad" was expected for, buying it at normal PC game price wasn't such a deal. So fans complained.
And Key lowered the MSRP.

[This message has been edited by olf_le_fol (edited 06-23-2004).]

#15
quote:
Originally posted by olf_le_fol:
I am just the same... Won't bother truly replying to this thread because I answered to such a question hundreds of times...

On the other hand each time it is possible new people see this and the knowledge pass on to new people. Given that not sure if I will avoid this topic in the future or present.

#16
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
It's on my "To Do" list... Although sometimes I have trouble with high school stories--but that's because it was soooo long ago [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] On the other hand, it brings back memories [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Haha probably not as long ago as me [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Yeah and it did bring back memories of HS well at least some of the story lines did. Too bad I didn't have a hot sister [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

#17
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
It's not just you. The reason the games are like $80 in Japan is because there's sex in them. Key's latest game - Clannad - is non-adult; because of this they reduced the MSRP. (Key = creators of Kanon and Air.)

Hmmm... That would seem weird to me, considering the American prices on things like adult DVD's, although some are a little expensive by "normal" standards. On the other hand, olf_le_fol seems to have a different story on the matter...

#18
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Well this all goes back, I think, to the fact the U.S. is one of the few countries in the world that does not start teaching a second language before High School in almost all cases and then after Freshmen, first year, of college/university, it is rarely mandatory to continue taking the language or using it for that matter.

I agree... America is one of the most un-lingual countries in the world, in my opinion. I'm one of the "lucky" ones who has an innate love of languages--and even then, my ability with other languages is pretty poor, all things considered. But at least I try [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

#19
quote:
Originally posted by olf_le_fol:
I am just the same... Won't bother truly replying to this thread because I answered to such a question hundreds of times...

As I've said before: That's your prerogative. On the other hand, looking at the link that Benoit posted, I can see that the discussions vary with different postings, so it's not actually all that repetative. For example, the thrust of this discussion was the nature of sex in bishoujo as opposed to Benoit's discussion on the usage of hentai.

quote:
Originally posted by olf_le_fol: If "loving sex" equals "is a pervert", well, according to this article, "Americans ranked No. 1 at 124 times a year" (in the frequency of sex) when "Japan ranked dead last" with "the average Japanese (having) sex just 36 times a year". ^_-
(Wait... Isn't sex supposed to be evil? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img])

Heh... well, proper people don't discuss such things as s-e-x. One of the fundamental problems that I see with our society is that we edify violence (the most logical outcome of which is death), and villify sex (the most logical outcome of which is life). As far as western attitudes towards sex go, I kind of think that, you know, it's the 21st century, guys... let's get out of this Victorian mindset [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

#20
quote:
Originally posted by wanfu2k1:
Haha probably not as long ago as me [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Yeah and it did bring back memories of HS well at least some of the story lines did. Too bad I didn't have a hot sister [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

Hard to say... I was class of '80. And, sadly, I didn't have a hot sister, either... mostly she was just a pain in the ass [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]