Hentai and Bishoujo

Interesting comments. Our opinion is, whenever a word is imported into another language, its meaning and nuance will change. The Japanese use the English word “claim” to mean “complaint” (it is similar, but a little wird). They use anime to describe Disney animation, which we would never do. We use manga to describe only paper comics, but in Japanese manga can also describe animation. And so on.

Hentai means “perverted” in Japanese, so we tend to try to describe the games as interactive dating-sim games instead. This can get a little long, and there are keyword/Google issues to consider, so we occasionally use the word hentai as well. Bishoujo (Bishojo) is the “best” term but again, very difficult when our goal is getting new people to notice our games, people who are very different from the fans here. Once I was interviewed and the person asked me, “So tell me about your bushido games?” I almost peed myself.

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Once I was interviewed and the person asked me, "So tell me about your bushido games?" I almost peed myself.

LOL!
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I agree... America is one of the most un-lingual countries in the world, in my opinion. I'm one of the "lucky" ones

And Europe is one of the most multi-lingual countries in the world. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] Well, not a country, but still...
I'm lucky because I was born in a family that speaks French while this part of the country speaks Dutch. Boum, I know two languages. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img] In fact, I didn't know any Dutch when I started going to kindergarten. But I picked it up pretty quick.
Then because of the influence of video games and TV, I started picking up English. The Internet and computers perfected this skill. And since some years, I'm learning German, but I'm not that good at it.

So this makes me tri-lingual, with a fourth language in process. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by Wolfson:
Heh... well, proper people don't discuss such things as s-e-x. One of the fundamental problems that I see with our society is that we edify violence (the most logical outcome of which is death), and villify sex (the most logical outcome of which is life). As far as western attitudes towards sex go, I kind of think that, you know, it's the 21st century, guys... let's get out of this Victorian mindset

I have always found it strange people villify the one thing that allows them to be here to villify it. It's what I said though I think we are turing more 'Victorian' rather then less as time moves on and that is just strange way to move in 'development' as you add more ways to become 'enlightened' from different cultures such as these games, various photobooks, various animes, etc.

Well another way I guess to see how the U.S. changes words, or at least how they are pronounced, look at the difference between "British English", "American English" and "Australian English". Having heard all three at once one time was kind of funny, everyone was speaking English but at the same time it was almost like speaking three different languages.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 06-24-2004).]

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Originally posted by Peter Payne:
Interesting comments. Our opinion is, whenever a word is imported into another language, its meaning and nuance will change. The Japanese use the English word "claim" to mean "complaint" (it is similar, but a little wird). They use anime to describe Disney animation, which we would never do. We use manga to describe only paper comics, but in Japanese manga can also describe animation. And so on.

Well, while I'm no expert on Japanese, I've noticed that they have no problems with doing things like making minor alterations to a word (even their own words) to facilitate communication. They seem especially fond of shortening words (anime being a good example). Another problem that arises in English-Japanese translation is that they don't always borrow from American English (witness the use of handobaggu for purse--nobody that I know of in America calls them "handbags"). And, of course, there's the Japanese propensity to just use English words for the sake of sounding "cool"--especially in song lyrics an on t-shirts--where the words don't
necessarily carry any coherent meaning in English.

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Originally posted by Peter Payne:
Hentai means "perverted" in Japanese, so we tend to try to describe the games as interactive dating-sim games instead. This can get a little long, and there are keyword/Google issues to consider, so we occasionally use the word hentai as well. Bishoujo (Bishojo) is the "best" term but again, very difficult when our goal is getting new people to notice our games, people who are very different from the fans here. Once I was interviewed and the person asked me, "So tell me about your bushido games?" I almost peed myself.

Heh... well, it goes back to the comment of many Americans being language deficient--whether by choice or design. Still, I don't think that using a word like hentai in place of bishoujo is justified simply by the fact that more people might know the word [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] Better to educate them in my opinion... after all, there was a point in time where no one would know the word bushido, either [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by SCDawg:
I have always found it strange people villify the one thing that allows them to be here to villify it. It's what I said though I think we are turing more 'Victorian' rather then less as time moves on and that is just strange way to move in 'development' as you add more ways to become 'enlightened' from different cultures such as these games, various photobooks, various animes, etc.

In many ways, I think many members of our society still behave exactly like Victorian English society: it is improper for adult material to be accessible, but at the same time, I suspect that many of them want access to some form of sexual stimuli, even if they have to pay for it. The real problem occurs in the nature of humanity to be prejudiced--the "if your sexual fantasy is different from my sexual fantasy, it's wrong" mentality. So someone will happily equate hentai to "pervert," call us all perverts, and then go out and hire a prostitute. Funny... we didn't exploit anybody...

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Originally posted by SCDawg:
Well another way I guess to see how the U.S. changes words, or at least how they are pronounced, look at the difference between "British English", "American English" and "Australian English". Having heard all three at once one time was kind of funny, everyone was speaking English but at the same time it was almost like speaking three different languages.

Yeah, I used to work with a couple of South African guys... it was always interesting to hear how they would use English, and they were always giving us a hard time about our usage of words [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by SCDawg:
On the other hand each time it is possible new people see this and the knowledge pass on to new people. Given that not sure if I will avoid this topic in the future or present.
Blah. I've been repeating the very same things for the past 7 years or so... No, change that: I've been arguing about the exact same things for the past 7 years.
My opinion is my own, but as far as I'm concerned, the casual English "bishoujo" gamer is as obstinately ignorant about the games he loves so much as the one who truly doesn't know a thing about them and talk from hearsay.
I didn't expect to leave the BBS that way, but for the same reason I became a lurker some months ago, I am now definitely leaving this BBS, as the English "bishoujo" gamers definitely lost my support this time (for a reason not directly linked to this BBS, but...). A good timing as far as I'm concerned, probably.
See you all... about other matters. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/mad.gif[/img]

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"What is love if not painful and tragic? It's just boring."
- Elaine Barlow -

[This message has been edited by olf_le_fol (edited 06-24-2004).]

What?

Apparently someone who is bitter over something. Just for the record, I’m an “English bishoujo gamer,” so I have no idea what they really refer to them as in Japan. I personally don’t care, since what matters is how the American public perceives the games. As far as I’m concerned, anyone can call them anything that they want, if that’s what makes them happy–if you call them hentai games, I’ll know what you’re talking about; if you call them bishoujo games, I’ll know what you’re talking about; if you call them b-games, dating-sims, or ren’ai games, I’ll still know what you’re talking about. As I said at the front of this post, I’m not so much interested in the “what” as the “why.” We all have our opinions on what we think they should be called, and can argue them until our fingers fall off from typing, but very few opinions are going to change. It’s more interesting to me to look at the trends in the actual types of bishoujo games that are being selected for marketing to the American public… for example, Peach Princess started off with Chain and Kana–two very story oriented games with dark undertones–but they have leaned away from those types of games. At any rate, I’m sorry to ramble, but I kind of hated to see someone take umbrage and feel the need to leave the board just because of this message thread(although I get the impression it had more to do with other things in the long run).

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Originally posted by Wolfson:
In many ways, I think many members of our society still behave exactly like Victorian English society: it is improper for adult material to be accessible, but at the same time, I suspect that many of them want access to some form of sexual stimuli, even if they have to pay for it. The real problem occurs in the nature of humanity to be prejudiced--the "if your sexual fantasy is different from my sexual fantasy, it's wrong" mentality. So someone will happily equate hentai to "pervert," call us all perverts, and then go out and hire a prostitute. Funny... we didn't exploit anybody...

Well yes a lot of this falls under the idea of "freedom of speech for all but death unto he that does not think as I do". We are encouraged to open our minds, to think freely to explore our world, but if it treds into the "adult area of life" then we are suddenly evil people that must be ploting to destory the very moral fabric of society. Oddly it often seems, as you said, it is by the very same people that two days later might appear at a "charitable fundraiser" (their justification and way out of the possible hypocrisy) which is hosted by a magazine looking for the "Girls of the (Fill in your college teams conference)".

I saw this on my old college campus a few times, those crying out loudest against "adult products and actions" were the first to push for that magazine to come photograph some "Girls of the SEC" on campus. The free press student newspaper had a fun time with these people and perhaps justly at their expense slightly mocked them for this 180 turn on this issue. Are irony and hypocrisy becoming foriegn concepts to most people?

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Originally posted by olf_le_fol:
Blah. I've been repeating the very same things for the past 7 years or so... No, change that: I've been arguing about the exact same things for the past 7 years.

Yes but seven years ago this market was not as known as it is now and even if limited growth has grown. Now might be the time to educate the new arrivals to this industry and hopefully they will start to pass this knowledge on to others they get involved in the industry.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 06-24-2004).]

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for example, Peach Princess started off with Chain and Kana--two very story oriented games with dark undertones--but they have leaned away from those types of games.

Don't you mean G-Collections? Kana - Little Sister is definitely from G-Collections, and Chain was from Himeya or something.
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Originally posted by SCDawg:
[B}Well yes a lot of this falls under the idea of "freedom of speech for all but death unto he that does not think as I do". We are encouraged to open our minds, to think freely to explore our world, but if it treds into the "adult area of life" then we are suddenly evil people that must be ploting to destory the very moral fabric of society. Oddly it often seems, as you said, it is by the very same people that two days later might appear at a "charitable fundraiser" (their justification and way out of the possible hypocrisy) which is hosted by a magazine looking for the "Girls of the (Fill in your college teams conference)".[/B]

Our society is full of double standards. The other problem that we run into with bishoujo games is the tendency for our society to run down anything that we don't fully understand--I had the same problem with RPG's back in the day, when they were first coming out and I was first getting into them. Because of bishoujo's relatively small market, and the (generally) adult nature of the material, many people have a tendency to make gross assumptions about the product and the people who buy it.

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Originally posted by SCDawg:
Yes but seven years ago this market was not as known as it is now and even if limited growth has grown. Now might be the time to educate the new arrivals to this industry and hopefully they will start to pass this knowledge on to others they get involved in the industry.

I agree. And what seems to be unfortunate--and I have no idea of how prevelant this attitude really is--is that he is expressing a mindset that those who were not around at the time are posers. The simple fact of the matter is that the English Market wasn't really in existence until fairly recently, so anyone who got into bishoujo games was pretty hardcore about Japanese, and got the games from Japan, in Japanese, and played the Japanese games. A lot of the new players are being introduced through the English market, and--like myself--have no clue about the Japanese market. It's not for lack of interest... it would simply be silly for me to spend $80 on a Japanese game just to look at the pictures and only understand a handful of words that were being spoken, and even fewer words that were appearing on the screen--I can count the kanji characters that I can read on my fingers. The fact of the matter is that, as the English market (hopefully) expands, there will be more and more newcomers to the genre who only know the English bishoujo. I admire the people who can go out and get and play the Japanese titles--they have a broader scope to choose from, and perhaps a deeper understanding of what can be done with bishoujo. I would hope that not all of them feel absolute contempt for those of us who are kind of stuck in the English-speaking world for the time being. As you say: it would be better to simply educate and pass on knowledge--I have already learned about several Japanese titles that I otherwise never would have heard of... whether I will ever be able to get them is another story, but at least my horizons have been broadened a little.

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Originally posted by Benoit:
Don't you mean G-Collections? Kana - Little Sister is definitely from G-Collections, and Chain was from Himeya or something.

My bad--both titles were published by G-Collections. I have a tendency to think Peach Princess because I am on their BBS, but that is what I meant. You can still find both titles at the G-Collections web site, way down at the bottom of the list, underneath all of the recent fluff that they've been publishing.

Hmm…so what crawled up Olf’s ass this time? Someone wanna give me a rundown, since I’m too lazy to read all these posts right now

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Originally posted by Wolfson:
...

At any rate, I'm sorry to ramble, but I kind of hated to see someone take umbrage and feel the need to leave the board just because of this message thread(although I get the impression it had more to do with other things in the long run).


That's only sort of the whole story. It's not JUST this thread, it's a whole bunch of threads that came before it; he's been a fan for a very long time. He also went through the same 'perennial newbie introduction' bit back when anime was the size we are. Finally he had some sort of personal crisis about 2 months ago that he doesn't want to talk too much about.

As I said, I figured that there were other factors at play than this discussion–especially since this discussion has been fairly innocuous compared to some of the others that I have looked at. For some reason, he just chose to vent steam here. I’m trying not to take it too personally, although his shot about the “English bishoujo gamers” kind of left me in a bit of a snit. But in any hobby where there are old-timers and newbies, there are two types of old-timers: those that have patience with the newcomers, and those that don’t. I hope things work out for him, what ever they are.

Now I know why Olf left and was angry. He was posting in OptiGamer’s bishoujo games thread, as “anonymous”.
He was being an ass about our behavior of not wanting to call these games porn, and evaded our points, while they were pretty clear. Then I accused him of trolling, and then he became angry and revealed himself.

Yet again I have to see that the worshipped people aren’t all they seem.

So yes, it’s my fault. Shoot me now, I don’t care after the fact that he ridiculed me because I wasn’t a veteran and hardcore debater like him.

[This message has been edited by Benoit (edited 06-25-2004).]

Well, not to stir up a debate, but technically speaking some (but not all) bishoujo[i/] games qualify as “porn,” assuming that your definition of “porn” is the graphic depiction of nudity and sex. But it seems kind of ludicrous to walk around banging a gong and saying, “Dammit, I’m into porn, and proud of it–and you’d better agree with me!” As has come up on [i]bishoujo/hentai threads before, some people are proud of the fact that they can call it hentai, or porn, or whatever. More power to them. I’m into the bishoujo (pretty girl) aspect of the games (and to some degree the ren’ai (romance) aspect), and to a large degree, the stories that are being told. But I also realize that not everyone is playing the games for the same reasons that I am, so I’m not going to force my views on anybody. If asked for an opinion, I’ll give it, and if someone wants to know what games I like, I’ll tell them. Ultimately–and this goes back to the top of the thread–the sex in bishoujo games is almost optional. The fact that games have been published without it testifies to that fact. Where sex is involved–and this is just my opinion–I prefer it to enhance the story, rather than simply be there for the sake of being there.

Yes, I know they are pornography by definition. But what we were debating about is that we want to avoid calling them porn (porn, not pornography), because of the connotation that goes with it. The connotation implies that it’s a typical porn flic, and that can’t be said for all of these games.

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Originally posted by Benoit:
Yes, I know they are pornography by definition. But what we were debating about is that we want to avoid calling them porn (porn, not pornography), because of the connotation that goes with it. The connotation implies that it's a typical porn flic, and that can't be said for all of these games.

In part I agree, we cannot always go by strict definitions and that is what people want to do all the time. For example if they tried it the lottery is gambling but most states say gambling is illegal so technically the lottery is illegal, yet no one looks at it that way.

Though with this argument they say these games are porn because they fit the definition. However, it is because of the negative connotation that goes with the definition that makes me say these games do not fit the definition. So perhaps in partly agreeing it is like saying, these games might technically fit the definition but that is not to say the definition should be used to describe them or perhaps in all fairness can be used to describe these games.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 06-26-2004).]

Exactly my point. This conversation is going on at the Optigamer board right now.