Hentai and Bishoujo

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#41

There is another part of the definition of pornography, at least how I choose to use it. Porn is without other artistic, literary, or social value. Evangelion, for instance, is NOT pornography. Neither is Good Will Hunting despite the fact that both contain sex scenes.

Yarugee games ARE in fact just porn (yarugee = the b-game subgenre of games like Tottemo Pheromone and Kango Schicyauzo = lots of sex whenever there’s any (quasi) plausible way). But Snow Drop isn’t just porn, and neither is Private Nurse.

#42

I’ll accept that, although I think there are some people on the Religious Right who would argue with it. There are simply some people who feel that any sex is porn. But, like I said, I can see the artistic merit thing–it would be like calling Boticelli’s “Venus” porn. I, personally, have no problem with nudity and sex, and don’t feel that I’m indulging in pornography… the main issue for me is that in bishoujo games, no one is actually getting exploited. I’ve known girls in the “sex” industry, and they get really screwed up in the head after a while. Animated characters are only as screwed up as the writers choose to make them.

#43
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
Yes, I know they are pornography by definition. But what we were debating about is that we want to avoid calling them porn (porn, not pornography), because of the connotation that goes with it. The connotation implies that it's a typical porn flic, and that can't be said for all of these games.

I think part of the problem is gross over-simplification. It sounds like the assumption being put forth is "All bishoujo is hentai, therefor all bishoujo is porn." The problem is that not all bishoujo is hentai. There are games being published without the sex--heck, I've got at least one game that was published without the nudity. It would be stretching the imagination to start trying to call those games hentai, let alone, porn. To start lumping all bishoujo into the porn category is to do a diservice to the genre on several levels. Of course, I'm pandering my opinion again [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

#44

Hey, wait a minute… assuming that your definition of “porn” is the graphic depiction of nudity and sex. Uh, well no, it isn’t. Every definition of “porn” I’ve seen includes the phrase for prurient interest which, according to Merriam-Webster, means marked by or arousing an unwholesome sexual interest or desire. Wolfson’s definition fails on two counts. It’s too inclusive, describing everything from Master’s & Johnson to a classical painting. It also overlooks the prurient aspect - though that’s a matter of opinion. I don’t find bishoujo games ‘arousing’ in the same sense as a live action event. I also disagree that it should be called unwholesome [excepting kichiku]. To me, b-game girls are pretty, but they don’t arouse sexual interest or desire. I realize it varies from person to person, but for me bishoujo never equals porn.

Yes, I know they are pornography by definition. Argument by definition is a logical fallacy. See above for problems with this ‘definition’.

These games might technically fit the definition. Not true for everyone. For a term this loaded, I think the most you can say is porn is in the eye of the beholder.

#45

I agree with you in terms of your definition–that’s why I used the word “assuming.” Unfortunately, there are people out there that want to lump everything from Masters and Johnson to classical art into pornography. On the other hand, I’d also have to assume that there are, in fact, people who derive sexual pleasure from the graphic depictions in hentai bishoujo. I could be wrong, but you never know…

But personally, for your reasons, as well as several others which I have listed in above comments, I’d be disinclined to lump bishoujo into the classification of porn.

#46
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
I agree with you in terms of your definition--that's why I used the word "assuming." (...) On the other hand, I'd also have to assume that there are, in fact, people who derive sexual pleasure from the graphic depictions in hentai bishoujo. I could be wrong, but you never know...

Though you might not be doing this, the only problem even using the act itself, rather then those involved in the act taking part in the act, to say if people derive sexual pleasure from seeing the graphic depiction of the act it is porn, is you cannot link it to just bishoujo games. Such an idea then has to be made part of the entire definition and doing so means every 'R'-Rated movie might end up being called porn since those people might find the sexual acts seen in those movies to be a source of pleasure thus using that to say if the games are porn means not just the games but many other things become porn. Basically a similar problem to what already exists.

Perhaps if you combine the people/characters with the act only where the act occurs almost every other scene, such as both of the Do You Like Horny Bunnies games, that could be considered porn since they are along the same lines as what Nandemonai was mentioning. However this is different since the act is continual and considering the people or characters involved realizes that might not be exciting to people with different characters involved.

So to apply the definition I think you have to keep the people/characters tied to the act, and see the frequency rather then just universally apply the definition to any game with nudity or sexual depictions, which it seems you are not doing at this time, but which is being mentioned in this thread.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 06-27-2004).]

#47

Right… part of the problem here is that we’re kind of singling out bishoujo and asking “is it porn or isn’t it?” As I’ve said before, not all bishoujo is created equal. On the one hand, many of the games feature acts that are far more graphic than–to pull from your example–your standard R-rated movie. On the other hand, they are usually just static graphic pictures on the screen accompanied by text, and there are plenty of examples of literature that is considered “classical” that containes just as graphic descriptions as a bishoujo game. An equivalent comparison might be to go out and buy a copy of the Kama Sutra. However, be that as it may, no matter how rational we may be in our interpretations of what constitute porn, there will always be someone who wants to classify bishoujo in that category. If I understand correctly, part of what had Olf_le_fol frustrated was that the board he was messaging on wouldn’t accept his arguments that bishoujo was, in fact, porn. If someone who plays the games feels that way, it’s without a doubt that people on the outside will feel that way.

#48
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
(...)An equivalent comparison might be to go out and buy a copy of the Kama Sutra. However, be that as it may, no matter how rational we may be in our interpretations of what constitute porn, there will always be someone who wants to classify bishoujo in that category. (...)

I was thinking Lady Chatterly's Lover which at one time was classifed as porn and still is in some very conservative areas. Anyway, that is why it is critical that those of us that play this that think in this manner, that realize that definitions cannot always be fixed or tied to all things they seem to fit, have to make our voices heard. The more opinions out there perhaps the greater chance of getting rid of this stigma from more people.

#49

Lady Chatterly’s Lover had also come to my mind… I chose the Kama Sutra because of the illustrations in order to make a comparison to the graphic nature of bishoujo games. I definitely agree that a concerted effort needs to be made to “get the word out” to people in order to raise the level of understanding, and to raise the bar, as it were, on where bishoujo games stand in the mind of the average person.

#50

By mentioning the novel I was thinking the images that come to mind, which can always be more graphic then most still pictures even if the wording to support such images is not fully written.

Perhaps the question then becomes, how quick to accept new ideas is the “average person” and through what means will they be quick to accept a new idea.

#51

That depends on how it’s portrayed… that’s why I’m a little appalled to think that there are those who are walking around and banging a gong, saying, “I’m into porn!” That is going to give the average person exactly that kind of image–that bishoujo is porn. Whenever I have discussed it with people who are unfamiliar with it, I have usually loosely equated it to anime with mature themes–mostly because there is usually a story involved, and because of the nature of the graphics. The response I usually get is, “Oh.” and that’s pretty much that.

#52

Personally I think that description is better at least for some of the games like Kana, Crescendo, Private Nurse, and Heart de Roommate. Those are much closer to “anime with mature themes” then they are to porn, despite the definition.

Is it a good “Oh” or a bad “Oh”?

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 06-29-2004).]

#53