Hmm, funny... or perhaps not. *hm, hm*

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#1

Not too long ago, there was a post at Megatokyo, where a guy said that he was feeling guilty when playing brutish adult bishoujo games, specially when he “hurt” the girls in the game… I wonder if some of the people here have had about the same feelings? I’ve had about the same feelings in the past, when I was reading lots of adult fan-ficion, but nowadays, I don’t feel any of that, even if it doens’t exactly feel all that good when bad things happens to the girls in a bishoujo game because of a decision you make (Ayumi is a good example of that ).

Also, one funny throught hit me about the whole thing… How come that we can feel soem guilt/shame/whatever about the girls in adult bishoujo games, but never feel anything about for example, people that you kill in shooting games and such? Technically, it’s worse to “kill” anyone, so when we kill someone in a game, why doensn’t we feel bad about it, but feel bad when a girl in a bishoujo game gets hurt because of your actions? Such a mystery…

#2

Well I typically don’t feel guilt during brutish elements on bishoujo games, guess I am a heartless bastard . But my guess as to why you feel guilt in these games and not first person shooters is A) Bishoujo games usually build up the characters alot more so you actually know the person your hurting, while in FPS games you are just typically killing “the enemy” and you know nothing about them. Kinda the same situation in war, you don’t really want to know your enemy because it makes it alot easier to do your job. B) Most FPS’ don’t have you killing cute girls .

#3

I pretty much agree with Bigdog-san. Plus there’s our conditioning for such things. Most of us are taught that doing those kinds of behaviors in a relationship are wrong and shameful. So we have guilt coming from doing them, even in a fantasy setting while we are taught to be happy and joyous about defeating the “enemy” that you see in the FPS. And also there’s the notion that anything related to sex, whether brutal or not, is shameful in itself and shouldn’t be talked about. Which just heaps guilt on guilt.

#4
quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
Not too long ago, there was a post at Megatokyo, where a guy said that he was feeling guilty when playing brutish adult bishoujo games, specially when he "hurt" the girls in the game... I wonder if some of the people here have had about the same feelings? I've had about the same feelings in the past, when I was reading lots of adult fan-ficion, but nowadays, I don't feel any of that, even if it doens't exactly feel all that good when bad things happens to the girls in a bishoujo game because of a decision you make (Ayumi is a good example of that :().

That's why brutish games will never appeal to me no matter what. That's why I thought XChange sucked. So I suppose the answer is yes :D

#5

I would also have to agree with Bigdog. In shooters, its a faceless enemy. They show no emotion, and neither do you. In brutish games, I feel really bad, because I feel like I’m actually hurting someone as a result of my actions.

Oh, ekylo if we here thought of anything related to sex as shameful that shouldn’t be talked about, we probably wouldn’t be here .

Doddler

#6
quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
Also, one funny throught hit me about the whole thing... How come that we can feel soem guilt/shame/whatever about the girls in adult bishoujo games, but never feel anything about for example, people that you kill in shooting games and such?

The answer is usually simple:
The shooting games set you up for killing them. They usually put you into a situation of self-defense: kill or be killed, so you have no need to feel guilt.

The raped bishoujo-girls are a completely other story: They are cute designed characters that become victims because of your actions. It's natural to feel guilt (or at least feel sorry for them) in such an situation.

#7
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
The raped bishoujo-girls are a completely other story: They are cute designed characters that become victims because of your actions. It's natural to feel guilt (or at least feel sorry for them) in such an situation.

Hmm, perhaps that's it. Still, in soem caases, the rape may be kinda "justified", which is shown in some games (there is for example cases where the girl which you "rape" in the game have been trying to killy ou, or something like that), but even in those cases, you may still feel sorry for the girls... Well, it's a good thing, I suppose; it educates people about the fact that rape and things like that ain't something good.

#8
quote:
Originally posted by Doddler:
Oh, ekylo if we here thought of anything related to sex as shameful that shouldn't be talked about, we probably wouldn't be here [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img].

Well, that's because all of us have overcome such cultural baggage through superior intelligence, rampant insanity or the influence of vampire lemons. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

Of course I always wonder how open most of us would be if this was face to face discussions rather than over a BBS. And talking about it openly doesn't mean you don't feel various psychological twinges within, you just don't let them overpower you. (Kinda like myself and whenever I have to do any sort of public speaking.)

#9
quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
Of course I always wonder how open most of us would be if this was face to face discussions rather than over a BBS. And talking about it openly doesn't mean you don't feel various psychological twinges within, you just don't let them overpower you. (Kinda like myself and whenever I have to do any sort of public speaking.)

Yeah, your probably right. I can discuss it easily with my friends, but it was pretty hard for me to discuss the topic with the local comic book store owner. That took a lot of courage to do, made me feel more embarassed than anything. Only thing that kept me from running off was the cool devices box set he had on the shelf told me he would atleast listen to the idea (it was sitting right next to the dragon ball z dvd's.. haha, I had to laugh at that). I'm kinda dissapointed he wasn't able to get them in, though. Stupid customs.

Doddler

#10
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
The answer is usually simple:
The shooting games set you up for killing them. They usually put you into a situation of self-defense: kill or be killed, so you have no need to feel guilt.

The raped bishoujo-girls are a completely other story: They are cute designed characters that become victims because of your actions. It's natural to feel guilt (or at least feel sorry for them) in such an situation.

I haven't played any brutish games, but I have played plenty of kill-everything-that-moves games...so I'll open my mouth.

It also comes partly from the fact that brutish b-games have *characters* that get abused. You are supposed to relate to the game's *characters* as if they were real; at least, that's a big part of my theory of what makes really good fiction worth experiencing. In an FPS, they're just red shirts and you aren't supposed to emotionally attach at all.

#11
quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
Hmm, perhaps that's it. Still, in soem caases, the rape may be kinda "justified", which is shown in some games (there is for example cases where the girl which you "rape" in the game have been trying to killy ou, or something like that), but even in those cases, you may still feel sorry for the girls... Well, it's a good thing, I suppose; it educates people about the fact that rape and things like that ain't something good.

In that case, I still find it disquieting and unsettling but I can understand it more and be less...repelled. (Critical Point is a good example of this with the Wei Long-and-Maretta ending.) But it still grosses me out.

#12
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:

In an FPS, they're just red shirts and you aren't supposed to emotionally attach at all.

Another story is not in an FPS, but in an RPG, if it comes to the final opponent.
My favourite example for this is Final Fantasy VII:
After Sephiroth killed Aerith, I was struck by rage and wanted to see his head on a silver plate. All the chance-encounter-monsters in Final Fantasy are comparable to the "red shirts", but Sephiroth was a character with a personality and I was very obsessed with finishing him.

#13
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
In that case, I still find it disquieting and unsettling but I can understand it more and be less...repelled. (Critical Point is a good example of this with the Wei Long-and-Maretta ending.) But it still grosses me out.

Yeah, the Lai Wong/Marietta case is a good example (but perhpas not the best) example of where rape may be "justified". Hm, reminds me of a thread at Animenation that I was taking part in for soem weeks ago. In that thread, rape in adult anime were discussed, and most didn't mudn it. One of the guys there said that in some cases, especially if the girl that was raped was something of a jerk, then he trought that that rape was justified...

#14
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
Another story is not in an FPS, but in an RPG, if it comes to the final opponent.
My favourite example for this is Final Fantasy VII:
After Sephiroth killed Aerith, I was struck by rage and wanted to see his head on a silver plate. All the chance-encounter-monsters in Final Fantasy are comparable to the "red shirts", but Sephiroth was a character with a personality and I was very obsessed with finishing him.

Hmm, ok, on that point most seems to agree: "real" characters that you get to know and love in a game are those we care for, and feel bad for when they are killed/raped, but characters with no kind of personality, like an enemy soldier, for example, are those we could care less about if they are killed/raped... Correct?

[This message has been edited by Spectator Beholder (edited 09-05-2002).]

#15

shrugs
I think we discussed that point in 2 threads in MT, Beholder-san: one about killing “monsters” in RPGs and one abour playing kichiku games.
I don’t play FPS. Mindless killing just bores and disgusts me.
I (used to) play to (computer) RPGs. But I never like the fact you have to kill “monsters” to advance in levels. I don’t enjoy/like mindless killings, whatever the reason, whomever it is. In fact, that part is what bores/annoys me the most in (computer) RPGs.
I don’t play kichiku games. Once, when I was in a very very very bad mood, I tried one (“Darcrows” IIRC, which even isn’t AFAIK as hardcore as some are… shivers) and stopped at the first “brute” scene, sick. Never touched again any kichiku games, even with a 10’ pole, even if I consider that when in really bad mood. But only considering it would make me sick and stop my bad mood…
Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not a non-violent person. I believe sometimes killing is justified and/or necessary (war, criminals, food, etc.). I just don’t like mindless killing or brutality without a valid reason (and anger or hate is never a valid reason in my book)

[This message has been edited by olf_le_fol (edited 09-05-2002).]

#16
quote:
Originally posted by olf_le_fol:

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not a non-violent person. I believe sometimes killing is justified and/or necessary (war, criminals, food, etc.). I just don't like mindless killing or brutality without a valid reason (and anger or hate is [b]never a valid reason in my book)
[/b]

So, you might have liked "Metal Gear Solid", that was not about killing off all visible enemies, but instead sneaking infiltration and saving your ammo for the situations, when fighting was unevitable.

#17
quote:
Originally posted by olf_le_fol:

I don't play kichiku games. Once, when I was in a very very very bad mood, I tried one ("Darcrows" IIRC, which even isn't AFAIK as hardcore as some are... *shivers*) and stopped at the first "brute" scene, sick. Never touched again any kichiku games, even with a 10' pole, even if I consider that when in really bad mood. But only considering it would make me sick and stop my bad mood... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img][This message has been edited by olf_le_fol (edited 09-05-2002).]

Then why not play them just for curing your bad moods, then? :P

#18
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
So, you might have liked "Metal Gear Solid", that was not about killing off all visible enemies, but instead sneaking infiltration and saving your ammo for the situations, when fighting was unevitable.

Or he might have liked "Hitman" where it's sneaking skills that counts, not firepower.

#19
quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
Or he might have liked "Hitman" where it's sneaking skills that counts, not firepower.

or Thief : The Dark Project where the object was the stealing not the killing.

#20
quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
Then why not play them just for curing your bad moods, then? :P
Just considering playing to them cures my bad mood... ^^;;;;