Japanese Language

Visual Novel Community Anime/Otaku Discussions
#1

I have the good fortune to be traveling soon. In my spare time I have been working with software to learn Japanese. Now the software allows me to work in all three character sets but I am not sure which one i should be using. I thought sense I am learning the language just to travel I could take it one step futher and use it to enjoy some imported b-games too.

Does anyone have some tips? Should I go with hiragana only or should I do that first then run the course over in kanji. From what I can see Kanji is a lot more difficult and b-games seem to use a mix of characters.

Seether00

#2

Well, it works basically like this. Stuff for younger kids is usually mostly hiragana and it has lots of furigana (essentially, the kanji gets subtitled into hiragana). Things aimed at a more mature audience has very little furigana and a lot of kanji.

B-games are aimed exclusively at adults. Therefore, they are generally very heavy in kanji. If you only learn Hiragana, you might be OK for understanding spoken lines of dialog, however, most games do not feature VA for the protagonist (who generally has about half the lines) and in any case narration is almost never voiced. Only hiragana will get you able to understand most of half of the game, at best.

Depending on what kind of game you’re playing, this might work OK. If you’re into yarugee (lots of sex, nonstop, light on … everything else) then you might be just fine. It’s not like it’s very hard to figure out “iyaaaa, oniichan. Ecchi-ii – iiiiiii” or “soko – motto – motto hayaku”. But if you plan on being able to actually follow what’s going on in a complicated storyline, you need to study kanji.

#3

Then Kanji it is. Thanks.

Do you know Japanese by chance. Most people I have talked to say its a waste of time to try and learn such a ‘foriegn’ langauage. I took French and didn’t have that hard a time. Of course French is a romance language so is a totally different animal.

Bottom line, am I wasting my time?

Seether00

#4

Well considering there is thousands of Kanji, not even counting the compounds and there is only 46 Hiragana and 46 Katakana, and it’s not like you just stop using them. You need to know hiragana for function words and positive/negative endings of verbs. You also need to know Katakana to read most names, and any ‘loan’ word which more or less means you’ll be needing to learn both Katakana and hiragana to make proper sense of the Kanji it’s attached to.

After you learn Hiragana then Katakana, don't be afraid of Kanji, it only looks intimidating since a lot have many strokes, but I honestly find I am recognizing and memorizing the Kanji pretty quick if not easier than when I started hiragana.  I'm not trying to discourage you I'm just giving you my honest opinion that it's not worth it to just learn one alphabet since you more or less need all 3 to be able to have an effective grasp of what is written.  Japanese might seem difficult at first but just keep at it and you'll improve quickly.

I was raised on English, as well was taught some French and German when I was young but switched to Japanese later on, and I found the structure of Japanese is different from French and English, I wouldn’t say it’s a waste of time, unless you really don’t feel like taking a long term effort to continually use Kanji and improve your skill level, since if you stop using them for too long you’ll eventually become out of practice and that’s not fun at all.

However, there is people that have been speaking Japanese for years, and they still can’t recognize every single Kanji out there, not to mention people making custom compounds, meaning the Kanji list is more or less never ending.

So don’t get discouraged and learn it if you want to, since Japanese is a wonderful language that I honestly feel has been worth all the effort I put into it in my life.

#5

Yes, I just finished my third semester of class. I did well. As for whether it’s a waste of time … That depends. Define “waste”. People aren’t exaggerating when they say it’s a hard language to learn: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Language_L … h_Speakers

But see also: http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2050.html

The grammar is simple; it’s the characters that are the big issue. Problem is, to play games, you have to be able to read. This is the hard part. However, translation tools help a lot. WIth a good electronic dictionary (handwriting recognition) or something like AGTH (Anime Game Text Hooker) you can get decently far. I haven’t started yet, though I intend to pretty soon now.

I tried learning Japanese while i was still in college. This attempt failed miserably. I found that I have a limited capacity for learning, particularly memorizing new things; I’m very good at technical subjects like programming, because you don’t actually have to memorize all that much (you apply basic principles to problems) but I just couldn’t do Japanese and also do my other coursework and the part-time job. It just did not work. I couldn’t memorize the hiragana and katakana fast enough, so I had real issues. I bailed when the first test was coming up, because I was about to bomb it.

Much later, I enrolled in a community college and headed over after work. After another several years of watching subtitled anime, I had picked up a surprising amount just listening to the dialog with even a few weeks’ basic training. And taking the class by itself, without any other coursework competing for my attention span helped immensely. (As I mentioned) I made pretty good progress. But I seem to have a decent aptitude for languages; if you don’t, then Japanese is going to be problematic.

This is kind of a bullshift answer, but I can’t tell you if learning Japanese is a waste of time. To really answer the question “is it a waste of time”, first you have to answer another one: Do you like anime, and manga, and Japanese games enough to spend years learning? Because that is what it takes.

Your situation basically has four outcomes:

  1. You decide not to expend the effort, and you don’t care all that much. (You answered “no”, and you were right)

  2. You decide not to expend the effort. Now you’re 80 years old, still regretting that you never found the time. (You answered “no”, and you were wrong)

  3. You expend the effort, only to discover you fell victim to “the grass is always greener”, and find that the stuff you spent so much effort learning to read bores you to tears. (You answered “yes”, and you were wrong)

  4. You expend the effort, and spend a few years learning Japanese. (Unless you have no aptitude at all, you will eventually succeed. Unless you give up – see 1) or 2) Forevermore after that, you can simply go read any Japanese RPG or bgame you want. You think this is awesome. (You answered “yes” and you were right).

Since I don’t know you all that well, I can’t how strong your interest in this stuff genuinely is, or how hard it would be for you to learn Japanese. But my experience was that almost immediately after becoming an anime fan (I’d been a JRPG fan for a long time before this), I tried the first time to learn. Six years later, I eventually said “I’ve continued to regret not knowing Japanese ever since. Obviously this means I honestly care strongly enough about it”. Well, “eventually” never lasts; it either becomes “now”, or it becomes “never”. So I signed up. I figured I’d rather be 80 and regret having wasted all that time learning Japanese, than to be 80 regretting having not done it.

If you’re prepared to invest the time, then you’ll eventually be able to read the things you want to read. There are only 2 ways it can be a waste of time: 1) you start, get partway there, then give up; or 2) you get there, and decide what you find wasn’t worth the cost of getting there.

#6

Due to your description, it sounds like you are using something like Rosetta Stone software. From what I remember of the demo for it, it gives you the option to display the word for the picture in romaji, kana only (that is, hiragana and katakana), and kanji and kana. I highly suggest learning kana from a fluent speaker of Japanese first before using software. However, if you insist on using only the software then I would suggest going through the program in kana mode first, or at least until you have down hiragana and katakana. After that, start from the beginning again in kanji and kana mode and go through at least the parts of the program where you need to read.

#7

You are correct I am using Rosetta stone. I wish I had access to classes or a fluent speaker, but I don’t. I am just using what tools I have availible and so I can learn at my own pace.

The three options the software has are Kanji/Furigana, Kanji, Hirgana, and Romaji.

I also, have a copy of the complete Azumanga Daioh(favorite anime) dvd set and that has Japanese and English subtitles. So I am trying to use that as a gauge of my understanding and hearing spoken words.

Lame, yes, but you have use the tools you have.

#8

To be honest I have found something that in my opinion is better than Rosetta Stone. My Japanese teacher pretty much told our class we all needed to grab a copy. It’s called Instant Immersion Japanese v3.0. I have tried both RS and this and I prefer IIJ. This along with taking actual classes can improve your Japanese ten-fold. IIRC there is a NDS game out that allows you to learn how to write in kana and kanji, I believe.

As for the people who told you learning Japanese makes no sense and is a waste of time, they’re morons. Since most companies you will work for in the future do have ties to Japanese manufacturers and it helps a great deal if you’re able to speak and understand the language of your suppliers.

#9

Myself? Well did 2 years at university. Then moved to Japan for work, then realized everyone in my area speaks kansai-ban. After about 2.5 years living here, my hearing has naturally adjusted itself and now I can understand most daily conversations. Though I will never be able to speak kansai-ban properly, I just feel like an idiot when I try. (It’s quite amusing to my friends). Honestly though the fastest way to learn Japanese, is to come here and get a girlfriend. :wink:

Oh and hello again everyone, I’m not dead yet.

#10

Hah, yea, I’ve heard this is the easiest way.

#11

Wow, I didn’t know that they had finally implemented kanji with furigana. Back when I tried the demo, that wasn’t an option. Since that is available, choose that. Eventually you’ll be able to turn off having the furigana.

Hmmm, I may have to check that program out. Hopefully I’ll be starting formal classes again this semester. As for Nintendo DS software, you are right, and J-list sells them here.

Maybe one of these days I’ll be over to come over and find someone…

#12

I haven’t decided whether to give the DS game a try yet or not. To be honest it does seem like it would work quite well.

#13

Well…I’ve been studying Japanese for awhile without making much headway, but I ain’t giving up. But I don’t expect now to ever become fluent. Spoken Japanese is just as unintelligible to me as it ever was. I’m slightly better with written Nihongo, so lately I’ve been putting all my efforts into that. Kanji is a must, I’d say, and actually a lot of fun. I have a Japanese friend who said that when she was in grade school, they made her memorize one new kanji a day. So that’s what I’ve been doing, too. Of course, that means that ever day I have to also re-memorize all the kanji I memorized on previous days so that I don’t forget them. So that means I have these long lists of kanji going on and on in my head. But there are some advantages to that. If I’m out shopping with the wife, say, I can do my kanji while she’s trying on clothes. Or if we’re at home and she’s jabbering on about something,I can drown her out by doing kanji. It’s also a great sleep aid. If I start my kanji the minute I hit the sheets, I sleep like a baby all night long. Also, I understand that if you know kanji you can also get a broad idea of what a line of written Chinese means, as well.

#14

I think, the last time someone tried this with a chinese text, he ended up with a curse that turned him into a Panda whenever he came in contact with cold water… :wink:

EDT.:
looks at bamboo’s avatar image
Ah, I see - you probably don’t mind that happening to you at all - or is it already too late anyway? :stuck_out_tongue: :lol:

#15

[color=red]As taken from a language forum I frequent:[/color]

Quick test: ???

For those who can read Japanese and do not know Chinese, do you totally understand the meaning of the above Chinese sentence?

I’m afraid the answer is no. The reasons are:

[list]1. There are many Chinese characters that are not used in Japanese at all. For example, the word ?? above is not used in Japanese. Japanese people who have no knowledge of Chinese may not understand what it means.

  1. The same kanji may have different meanings in Japanese and in Chinese. For example, the character ? above has completely different meanings in Japanese and in Chinese.

  2. The grammar between the two language is completely different. For example, verbs are often put at the end of a Japanese sentence, while it is not true in Chinese. In the above sentence, for example, the last word ?? is a noun, not a verb. Not to mention there are many other differences in grammar between the two languages.[/list]

However, I have to admit that Chinese people without Japanese knowledge can guess the meaning of a Japanese essay to a certain extent, let’s say 30% of the meaning (the % here is arbitrary), and vice versa, because of the similar meaning of certain characters in both languages. For example, the word ?? in the above sentence has exactly the same meaning in both Chinese and Japanese.

So, I will rewrite the hypothesis of the first post as:

If you can read Chinese, you can guess the meaning of written Japanese (to a certain extent) - and vice versa.

#16

I would love to be able to learn japanese, not just for anime/hentai/manga and job purposes, but because I am really interested. I took few hours lessons last semester, and altough I thought I was okay, my knowledge is really pathetic.
So I am going to find a good place to learn and enroll. Any other suggestions?

#17

I have one classmate in my Japanese II class who is crazy enough to be learning Chinese at the same time. So far she’s doing pretty well as far as I can tell, and it is interesting listening to the little discussions she has with sensei.

As for suggestions (to Sid and anyone else trying to learn), I can’t stress enough how helpful immersion can be in learning a language. If you like listening to music, get a bunch of songs and make a playlist of nothing but songs in Japanese. When you’re first starting out, try and pick out individual words in the songs. As you progress you should be able to pick up more and more of what is being said. Same thing goes for anime. Either close your eyes occasionally and just listen, or turn off the subtitles. This also goes for translated eroge. On the reading side of things, if you like manga, consider getting bilingual manga. For instance, there is a bilingual version of Ghost in the Shell on J-List I’ve been thinking about getting. As your reading ability progresses, you can start trying to read untranslated manga. Thankfully, (from what I understand) a large number of manga have furigana above many of the kanji. Another suggestion that also is part of immersion is to see if there is a Japanese community near where you live. If so, get involved with them. For example, I’ve volunteered my time in various ways the past couple summers to help out with the local Sakura Matsuri. One of the things I’ve helped out with is making manju, and let me tell you, trying to keep up with the rapid Japanese the old ladies speak to each other is a real challenge. I guess what all I’ve said boils down to is that you need to be proactive in trying to learn the language. Just because it is hard and takes much effort, doesn’t mean it can’t be fun as well.

#18

Alright, Harigato. Okay time to set things in motion.

#19

If you are traveling and I’m assuming you are going to japan, then its much easier to pick it up once you are there. The japanese language, for all its differences to English, is not that difficult to learn. Its not tone senstive like chinese where you might insult someone if you pronounce a word in the wrong tone and you don’t need to learn too much kanji. The hardest part might be their sentence structure since its very different from English. Aside from that you have kanji, Katagana and Hiragana but with the exception of Kanji, the other two is like the English alphabet, they are set in stone, just memorize them. Kanji to me anyways is easy (then again I’m chinese) and you only need to learn 2000 or so (if that) vs 5000-7000 chinese characters to read a news paper. You also have one advantage over Chinese students, if you don’t know how to write a Kanji but knows what is sounds like, you can always write Hiragana down in its place, Chinese has pingying but I have never seen any Chinese who would write that in place of the actual Kanji. Chinese its either the actual character or nothing, japanese you can use Hiragana instead (though people would be more impressed with you if you write the actual Kanji)

One other thing, although Japanese uses Kanji, they are somewhat different from Chinese. The PRC has simplified Chinese characters, Japan has done the same to an extent but not to all of them, the result is that some Kanji is still in traditional form. For example Japanese version of end in Kanji ??, the PRC version (which is the official one used by the UN) ? noticed the difference of the left radical. There are others of course, bottom line, you can probably read some chinese characters if you know japanese but you will have a harder time reading simplified chinese and many chinese characters don’t have japanese kanji equivalents. You might be able to read a japanese article if you know chinese BUT that depends on how the article is written, some use a lot of kanji while others like children books, use a lot of Hiragana which obviously makes it much harder for you to read. Lastly, if you see two kanji’s together in japanese, they generally retain their original chinese meaning IE ?? means the same thing in Japanese as it does in chinese (well they have different connotations but the general meaning is the same).

That depends on the line but its generally untrue IE ??? (roughly, for a person living this world, it is difficult to avoid death. ) isn’t a phrase that make a lot of sense if you just known japanese. Or the phrase ?? (mortal realm) isn’t a japanese phrase.

As for if its worth learning or if its a waste of time, my answer is this, Knowledge is power and ignorance is sin, its always better to know more than to know less or in my favorite (and damn difficult language to learn) Et ipsa scientia potestas est.

#20

After 4 quarters of college Spanish I can translate text almost word for word. After 3 quarters of college Japanese, I couldn’t even understand a single sentence in a paragraph. I’m marginally better now, but there’s two big barriers. First, with Japanese I have to learn every word from scratch; many Spanish words however have equivalents in English. Second…kanji. Not only do you have to learn each kanji’s meaning (which varies depending on context), but you have to learn how to pronounce them (which again, varies depending on context). And unfortunately, the most important parts of a sentence (subject and verb base) are almost always written in kanji. So for every Japanese word I learn, I easily could’ve learned several Spanish words. Nandemonai dismisses the grammar as simple, which may be true…but I’m still not at the point where I can look up every kanji in a sentence and accurately piece together what it’s saying (also, see “varies depending on context” above >.>).

Link for relevance: http://pepper.idge.net/japanese/ (So you want to learn Japanese?)

I still don’t know how to say “crystal tiara,” but I can recite the opening song for the anime Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien almost word for word, which I’m sure will be infinitely more useful should I ever visit Japan.

Japanese female: Konnitiwa.
Me: Kimi ga nozomu eien. smiles
Japanese female whacks me with her purse and runs for the nearest exit.