Just a few random questions

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#1

Okay… I’m about to ask a series of questions that might sound weird, but there’s a good reason for them: the info is for something I’m working on. It’s related to b-gaming, but it has nothing to do with Peach Princess or other commercial companies (Japanese or otherwise). Totally independent… :slight_smile:

I really can’t go into detail right now, because there’s some uncertainty to it all – but if all goes as it should, you might be happier having answered the questions than not. :wink:

#1: Dating Sim or Visual Novel
Which do you prefer more? A Dating Sim or a Visual Novel? I know the terms are often intermixed, but there is a difference between the two.

#2: Stat Points or Love Point
Do you enjoy keeping track/balancing/increasing/decreasing attribute stats - say like Physical Strength, Academic Intellect, Emotional Sensitivity – which influence how a the b-game pans out… or do you prefer the less math intensive “what I choose to say” causes events to happen.

#3: Standard Cast or Unique
When you see the cast of a b-game, does it bother you that occasionally there’s a cookie cutter nature? That is to say, how many titles always have: a girl next door who loves you no matter what, a tomboy, an unemotional girl, a girl with a loli body, etc. Or does it bother you when a title doesn’t do this, making it harder to “relate” to a template type before the story reveals their personalities and plights.

#4: Size of the Cast
Do games with only 3 or 4 winnable girls – although deeply detailed -bother you, or would prefer a larger cast of 6 to 8 – offering more diversity.

#5: Face or Faceless
Which do you prefer: a player character with a face, or a player character without a face (you know… with his eyes hidden and whatnot).

#6: Realistic or Magical/Technological
What kind of setting do you prefer: a setting where the laws of physics are realistic or a setting where magic and technology are more flexible (for example Sister Princess and Da Capo).

#7: Budget
If the budget was limited, and only one of the following could have the bulk of it, which would it be:

(A) Visuals - the paper dolls and CG illustrations.
(B) Audio - voice actresses and background music.
(C) Engine - how smooth it runs, size of download/installation, amount of features and gameplay gimmicks.

#8: Progressive or Get it Now
If someone were making a game… would you want them to make an announcement before it was completed, giving time to see it made – or would rather the announcement made when it’s ready for release.

#2

1: visual novel
2: stat points
3: unique
4: the more the better
5: Face
6: ergh… both? If I HAD to choose than magical
7: visuals
8: progressive

#3

1: no real preference but slightly prefer visual novel
2: love points; i personally dont see stat points as realistic enough for event triggers
3: no real preference as long as they all have oppai :stuck_out_tongue: but if done well, unique can quite overwhelming
4: that is a stupid question. as a consumer, who wouldn’t want more playable characters? :stuck_out_tongue: or do you mean more playable characters at the expense of relatively shorter/less-involved storylines? if that is the case, i would prefer concentrated stories more than diversity
5: no real preference as long as the guy doesn’t look ugly either way
6: i prefer a more realistic setting where things actually make sense rather than things just thrown in for no reason other than being “moe” etc…so in the end it really doesnt matter if it is magical/technological as long as it is coherent
7: i think you are missing D) story :stuck_out_tongue: but i would choose visuals of the 3
8: depends on how consistent your game development is. i mean, i dont think you will want to do what we did with little my maid which kinda took forever to release since its initial announcement, but you will want people to be aware of your game at the same time as well. so i’ll personally say “semi-progressive” where you announce the title when a decent amount of solid progress has been made already as supposed to announcing it too early

[ 08-15-2007, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Lamuness ]

#4

#1: Dating Sim or Visual Novel

I don’t prefer either, it depends on the game.

#2: Stat Points or Love Point

I don’t prefer either, it depends on the game.

#3: Standard Cast or Unique

… I do get tired of the cliches. I don’t mind using stock types for easy interaction, but can’t we mix it up a little bit?

#4: Size of the Cast

I’d probably prefer a smaller cast, since the larger one means that I’ll have to replay SO much and see the same thing SO much to get all the girls that I’ll get tired of it. Of course, if the cast is small and I don’t like any of the characters, I won’t play at all…

#5: Face or Faceless

Depends on the game. In most cases, the player-character HAS a personality and it doesn’t fluctuate that much, so he/she should have a face as well. It’s not ‘you’, it’s a particular character.

#6: Realistic or Magical/Technological

Don’t care, depends on the game.

#7: Budget

While most of us won’t care about the engine having Super Cool Wow Features, I suggest that unless the engine has a certain basic level of functionality that many players take for granted, people will not play at all. Everybody’s going to pick Visuals, because they’re not thinking about it. But if you ship a game without things like ‘skip already read text’ or working save/load or not able to run on many systems… if you ship a game that is as annoying to play as the hirameki interactive DVDs, then it won’t matter how great your visuals are, it will still suck.

#8: Progressive or Get it Now

Do it my way - make quiet comments that you’re making a game, but don’t talk much about it until it’s nearing completion…

#5

Hey… nice there Papillon. Careful… I might kidnap and drug you. I know what country you live in. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

#6

i tend to agree with most of what papillon said; very nice insights

thank god i didnt bother showing you my stuff :stuck_out_tongue:

#7

I’ll be the bitchy one here and say the say the first choice doesn’t make sense if you use the “English” take for the expressions (since neither is used in a way that makes sense anyway and often thrown together with “bishoujo games” and “hentai games”), and make little sense if you use the Japanese meaning (since both are completely different gameplays, therefore are proabably played for different reasons). Of course, even if you cannot compare apples and orangesn you can still ask whether people prefer apples or oranges, but… For my part, I prefer story to gameplay so I tend toward AVGs rather than SIMs, but i don’t really prefer AVG to SIM per se.

For the second question, I assume we’re going with SIMs since, as far as I know, AVGs rather use a “flag event” system than a point system. For SIMs, I’d slightly prefer a “pure” stat system over a “pure” love point system, since it’s more the basis of a SIM, meaning the reason why I’d be playing the game anyway. OTOH, I think most games rather use a mix of both, with explicit stats and hidden love points (and even flag events), so I’m not too sure about how a “pure” system would work.

Don’t care at all about questions #3, 4, 6 and 8 (meaning either is just fine with me).

For #5, I prefer a character with a face and story for AVGs (for better integration in the story) and I don’t care as far as SIMs are concerned.

For #7, my order of importance is: A, C then B. In fact, I’m in the side of people considering a good Visual Novel is better unvoiced.

[ 08-15-2007, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]

#8

1): Visual Novel
2): Love Points
3): Standard
4): The less the better
5): Face
6): Unrealistic
7): Visuals
8): Progressive

#9

#1: Dating Sim or Visual Novel
Visual Novel

#2: Stat Points or Love Point
Love Point Get!!.. I… guess?

#3: Standard Cast or Unique
Standard if done well
Unique if done well.
I mean there’s no point in just throwing in a unique character or five if there’s nothing to them. Ho Ho I’m quirky, isn’t enough eh?

#4: Size of the Cast
I personally like smaller, I suppose, as you get more CG shots of em. I mean its fun having lots now and then but I feel a little down if they have loads but only one or two CG moments for them because of it.

#5: Face or Faceless
Don’t care, honestly.

#6: Realistic or Magical/Technological
Doesn’t matter. The setting doesn’t really effect me too much. If it is magical/technological/whatever though, I’d like it to be there in the story. Not like Here’s a magical city! now watch as everyone goes to a school and do things that could just make the setting your local school and not make any difference.

#7: Budget
Visuals -
Tis what I want and love.

#8: Progressive or Get it Now
I enjoy progressive stuff but it can be a little frustrating.

#10

#1 visual novel
#2 no points
#3 unique
#4 more = better
#5 faceless
#6 more fantasy-like i think
#7 visuals
#8 progressive

#11

  1. I don’t even KNOW the difference

  2. I choose what to say. In the ones where your stats influence what events happen, it’s (to me anyway) far from clear what you need to boost in order to trigger what event – and “choose what to say” is easier to progress in via trial-and-error.

  3. It somewhat bothers me when b-games are cribbed from the cliche list. Strong writing, good graphics, good hscenes … All of these can overcome this. It definitely does NOT bother me when it’s new and different (unless it is ALSO bad). Generally, as long as you do something to differentiate your characters from other games featuring similar characters you should be fine – but don’t go the Tsukushite Agechau 4 route and (for example) just toss an assassin into a lighthearted game seemingly just because (it does NOT mesh well; it turned the game serious, but wasn’t prepared to go the whole 9 yards and actually deal with that plotline. Having opened up that can of worms, trying to ignore it doesn’t really work).

The game gets bonus points for including the supernatural, even if it’s a stereotype. Especially if said supernatural parts involve cat ears. Or bunny ears. Or a cute tail.

  1. That depends. In a game like Do You Like a Horny Bunny, only having 3 bunnies would be bad. In contrast … Private Nurse, Snow Drop, Heart de Roommate, all were perfectly fine with a small cast.

  2. With face. Without face makes it too obvious I’m being pandered to.

  3. Supernatural is better, but either work just fine.

  4. None of the above. Hire a good writer. There is a reason people still play Tsukihime and Nocturnal Illusion. There is also a reason people do NOT still play Paradise Heights or Ring-Out.

As for the actual options you provided: Better to have no voice acting than bad voice acting (ask Type-Moon or Key about that). The engine – you ought to be able to find people to work on it cheap, programmers do that. Graphics will require some expense, but better to have a good writer with mediocre graphics than gorgeous graphics with “Oh my god … It’s SO HOT in here … are you HOT? Cause I’m REALLY HOT. I guess you’ll just have to take all my clothes off.”

  1. Foreshadow much? I think you just did announce it meself … Keep it under wraps for a bunch of reasons. Basically, you can refer to Peach Princess’ ancient history to see EXACTLY why keeping things under wraps very early on is a GREAT idea.

8a) Little My Maid. 'Nuff said. It is not to your advantage to announce a game right at the start of your company’s existence, only to have it come out 4 years later.
8b) Slave Bazaar and Yu no Hana. 'Nuff said. People get really pissed off when you hold something up in front of em, go “Won’t this be awesome?” and then yank it away. [Yes, I know it’s not exactly what happened, and they didn’t have a lot of choice. Still.]
8c) If your project undergoes major changes / revisions, people don’t compare what actually was completed with what was publically announced 2 years ago.

[ 08-16-2007, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Nandemonai ]

#12

#1: There is a difference? Please elaborate! Everybody else who could make a decision here please feel free to do so too!

#2: Both - with Love Points (understood them as the usual “flags” in ADVs) being more significant than the stats.

#3: Standard cast with some unique characters added

#4: IMHO, Cast != amount of winnable girls. It actually adds to the game’s realism if only a few out of a big cast are really winnable - with other male characters alraedy having a claim on some of the girls themselves - and perhaps there is a path where the player’s character breaks up one existing relationship and gets the girl from there for himself while other relationships are unbreakably stable.

#5: Depends on the kind of story: if it’s ren’ai then a face for the player’s character would be fine, while in all kichiku games in which the player’s character had a face it somehow was… creepy! And I really thank the bishoujo-goddess Ladyphoenix-sama that Gore always wore that mask!

#6: Either could be nice, but ifg I had to make a choice I’d tend to prefer the more fantasy-driven path.

#7: nods As others said here before: [D] - story and characterization. besides that, you may want to [E] - hire a lemon-exterminator! :wink:

#8: Get it Now - no doubt about what harm does a continuous report of progress that starts with 10%-steps in the first months, then at the point of 60% it slows down to 5%-steps and at 80% to 2%-steps until at 90% the reporting stops with the project going into a hiatus. Neither the waiting people would be happy about that nor the making people who will be at this point constantly be bothered with questions about the release-date to the point that that they would be annoyed enough for dropping the project.

[ 08-16-2007, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Unicorn ]

#13

#1: Dating Sim or Visual Novel
It depends. Sometimes i want to play a Dating Sim; Sometimes i want to play a Visual Novel; Yet sometimes i want RPG. Either one, i guess.

#2: Stat Points or Love Point
Again, it depends what i want to play at the moment. Either one, i guess.

#3: Standard Cast or Unique
I have nothing against a Standard cast, but is better they ‘surprise me’ somehow. So i’d say Unique is a little better.

#4: Size of the Cast
For great, profound Visual Novels, a little cast will help the story. For a Dating Sim, a bigger cast is better. So it depends what i am playing at the momment.

#5: Face or Faceless
A player character with a face is better.

#6: Realistic or Magical/Technological
Sometimes i want to play Realistic scenarios, and sometimes i want to play more Magical/Technological scenarios. So either one, i guess.

#7: Budget
The Visuals are the most important, but a great story helps a lot, sometimes more than the Visual. Even if there’s no good Audio and/or shitty Engine, i can simply turn off the speakers and see the great visuals or read the good story.

#8: Progressive or Get it Now
Progressive.

[ 08-16-2007, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Peter Gilis ]

#14

Hmmm… I wonder if I should put up a disclaimer for OLF, before making a definition? :wink: :wink:

As for timeframe… In commercial game development, you’re typically given a window of 8 to 12 months once everyone is in place. I am strongly encouraging the enforcement of such a model on the group. Furthermore, we’re sorta cheating since everything up to the beta release will use a premade game engine: and that removes a massive crunch in game design. Might reduce the window… or it might not: the others are doing this for as much reason as being fans to b-gaming, as they doing it for experience in actually making one.

Significant slowdown during game development is normal, and I think people don’t seem to understand that: even in commercial gaming (just ask Obsidian or Blizzard :wink: ). Most common cause is revision of something fundamental like the plot or game mechanic. Ironically the more time you spend on trying to prevent such a thing, the more likely you’ll be unprepared when it inevitably hits… so it’s best to tackle the matter when it comes. What I’m trying to get at is: slowdown doesn’t necessarily mean work has slowed down… it might be because an overlooked mistake has grown in to a lethal one, and “forward progress” is halted to repair it.

Knock on wood that it doesn’t happen of course.

#15

Dating sim, but I like the narrative, just not the structure of visual novel. Very few exceptions to this, generally there has to be an extremely good storyline, aka Divi-dead or Eve Burst Error.

There are so very few English dating sims out compared to visual novels…i’d actually like to see a quality one… I don’t buy visual novels much anymore…occasionally, but not often because their are so many as so few good ones, but dating sims are so few and so even those aren’t top notch are worth more to me imo.

Keeping track, but I prefer soft, less clear, descriptors like “Very Low,” “Low,” “Below Average,” etc… However a choice between hard numbers and not at all, i prefer to see them. Maybe it’s from playing so many RPGs?

It bothers me when they are all sometimes, but it generally bothers me more when your relation is also cookie cutter defined that you’re suppose to go for 1 or 2 girls default (usually just 1), but they still offer more girls as standard choices (and not really as hidden characters either).

In general, it doesn’t bother me either way, though it’s nice to have a variety of both…maybe a bit more unique than chiche, just i don’t like having the “this girl is the one you’re suppose to end up with” thing.

As large as you can without sacrificing too much for character development. This can be a bit larger for dating sims than visual novels imo. 4 is really a minimum though.

However, the more developed characters there are, the better (As Lamuness pointed out) :stuck_out_tongue:

I do like replayability of more characters, so as long as they have a fleshed out storyline, even if it’s not going to quite as in-depth as if you knocked out 1 character, i’d prefer more. However, i don’t want to see the Chrono Cross phenomia.

If he has a voice, a face. If not, not particularly. Or if you show their face avatar during dialogues, yes.

Either way, make them look good.

As i’ve said before a dark magical/sci-fi world. Well, magical more than sci-fi generally (but usually a combination is best) and by dark i mean occultish (specifically Japanese occultist) or generally dark (like Berserk).

However, i want mechanics of the world to make sense.

Engine, though it would be nice in “features” then to allow us to edit our own graphics, for those like me who can.

If you can’t do that…visuals, as long as the engine doesn’t suffer to the point that it’s unplayable and music isn’t very long midis (which take hell of a long time to load in XP)

Progressive, as long as what is being said doesn’t take that much time from development. However, don’t post until you know you’ve gotten something and don’t post just to post.

[ 08-16-2007, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Jinnai ]

#16

The problem is that the expression “dating sim” is one created by Western fans, which has no real value since it’s mixing together the genre (“dating”) and the gameplay (“sim”), which doesn’t any sense nowadays (if it ever did). Even when the “dating” part may allude to “romance”/“ren’ai” games, it’s a huge misnomer since “dating girls” is hardly the purpose of romance games; it’s just as wrong as saying that “Gone with the wind” is a dating movie because its main point is a love story. As for the “sim” part, SIMs never were that popular, but they really marginal nowadays, compared to AVGs – and anyway absolutely not reserved to romance games (e.g. slave SIMs) so strongly associating the two is once more a huge misnomer.

I don’t know which way you understand the way erogamers use the term “flag”, but I think you’re getting it wrong. It’s just not a flag as a boolean value, but an “event flag”, meaning a flag raised after a certain event is seen – more a Win32 flag if you prefer. In this meaning, it means the ending would only opens if certain events were seen – contrary to a pure stats system were the ending would be rather conditioned by the stat values.

[ 08-16-2007, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]

#17

While I totally understand where you’re coming from, I’m using the more generalized definitions as interpreted by Western gamers. This is after all, a Western produced project for Westerners: and the whole nuances of “b-game categorization” is a beast I really find more amusing than worth the trouble of enforcing: everything is twincest or not twincest. :slight_smile:
I’m just saying it still applies to things outside of b-gaming: the whole “event flag” method. It’s more used than some people make it sound, and the programmer in me always sees it as a given.

#18

Hm… it’s been a while since I’ve posted.
In any event, yay polls.

1- If by “dating sim” you’re referring to the AVG-style games, then I prefer that. I have nothing against things like ToHeart(love that series, actually), but that style of gameplay isn’t my preference.

2- I like flags. Makes more sense to me. Having to keep track of stats is annoying.

3- I don’t care either way, so long as the cast is good. I’ve seen awesome casts consisting of nothing but the cookie-cutters, and I’ve seen garbage that tried to be original. It’s all about how you do it.

4- Size of the cast doesn’t really matter to me, though with more characters, there’s more of a chance of finding one in particular to latch onto as a favorite. Four’s pretty much the bare minimum, though. I will say that I like seeing an extra character or scenario that opens up after doing the other paths, though. Gives me more of an incentive to play through every character path.

And red herrings are a Bad Thing. I’m sure you can at least understand the frustration of all the Sacchin fans. :stuck_out_tongue:

5- Face. Makes the protagonist seem more like an actual character.

6- I like the fantastical stuffs more, but it’s not really an issue either way when I pick a game.

…well, not entirely, now that I think about it. Things like Eternal Fantasy attract me more than the usual school things. But I’m still not going to complain about the setting.

7- My computer is a piece of crap, so flashy things just make it die faster. Visuals hook me the most.

Though I will say that voice makes the frustration of “AGHAGHAGHAGH HOW THE HELL IS THIS KANJI READ!?!?!?!?” much less.

8- I like seeing progress. Being able to check Alcot’s site obsessively to see if FairChild has a release date already is far more satisfying than wondering when the hell 130cm is going to make an game announcement, for example. ^_^;;

Though I don’t expect anyone else to know what I’m talking about there.

#19

And I’m still saying you don’t understand it the way it’s supposed to be. A “flag event” isn’t just the conditions of an “if” being being filled but really tied to a game event. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen in games other than erogees (obvioulsy), but I wouldn’t say “it’s a given”. For instance, a RPG may test for the presence of a certain item for a certain ending (such as being able to hurt the final boss at all), but most wouldn’t make it a prerequisite. Testing a route feature is a “flag event”, testing for a stat isn’t, neither is, for instance in a RPG, testing for the presence of an common item (say, a key) when testing for the presence of a certain unique key would be.
Som the programmer in you may see it as a given, but I’m still maintaining you’re wrong and a lot of games don’t use flag events. :stuck_out_tongue:
For instance, a pure SIM may test for some values of some stats at a certain moment, thus would have no use for flag events. Does it mean it doesn’t have events? Not at all, just that the events are the consequences of the stats therefore no “flag events” are actually raised. No, obviously, you can use booleans in order to memorize the stats were a certain value at a certain moment, but the story proceeds according to the stats evolution¬ÅAand not the events happening (i.e. even if some events must happen in order to see an ending, they’re just indications of the stats having reached a certain value at a certain time, rather than the basis for the story evolution – remove the events and the game/system would work the same; in a “flag event” system, OTOH, the decision-tree is event-based).

You’d be wrong. Following “fair Child”? you lolicon!!! :stuck_out_tongue:

[ 08-17-2007, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]

#20

That’s what I was trying to say i’d like to see. A stat-based system that triggers storyline events, sometimes requiring certain dates and going to certain locations, sometimes (ala True Love).