Mangagamer (Previously "Hell may have frozen over?")

It’s not a double-standard, it comes with piracy being illegal, since taking illegally a good would imply to have broken its protection/security.

Well, I was talking about the game part, but you could maintain one same virtual OS for all your games that need activation. Of course, depending on your Windows licence (I run under a Technet and MSDN partnership account, so I don’t have problems, but…), you may have to buy a second Windows licence, but…

Seriously, as far as the DRM is concerned, you guys are just whiners, turning a molehill into a mountain. Honestly, Narg, since you’re playing the Japanese games, how often do you replay one or reinstall it? You’re kidding me if you answer that you regularly replay most of them.

If were talking about your standard sexfest with little plot: just enough to finish the game and get all the endings. Maybe a second time, if I’m going to review it, to refresh my memory of it. Ordinarily I don’t even keep the game - trading it to a friend or reselling it to the used market in Akihabara (since I don’t go there often, I literally bring entire box loads).

However for thinking intensive titles with tons of plot twists - Sabae no Ou or Gore Screaming Show - I’ll play it dozens of times to catch everything. Titles that I think are pure win - for example the MinDeaD BlooD series - will also get the same treatment. Thing is, its really not how many times I play it the first time after buying, but merely having the opportunity to play it again later on. I actually found myself going through PowerDOLLS again several months ago, after finding the box in my storage closet. Had MegaTech used DRM on it - if it existed of course - that wouldn’t have happened. I keep games that I enjoy. And when my nostalgia kicks in, I’ll reinstall and play it. In the case of titles like MinDeaD BlooD, I’ve reinstalled it several times in the last year or so, due to people keep asking me questions about the plot.

It’s also the about the sense of ownership. If I have a hardcopy or non-DRM version, I feel safe in knowing its mine to use, even if the creating company goes away. Being dependent on “Company X” being around till the day I die, isn’t something I like (even more so for application software - there I times when I prefer the outdated unsupported versions). You’re right… I don’t replay all the games I own. I doubt its humanly possible. However being able to play those games anytime I choose, at any date in the future, is something I enjoy and will keep on enjoying. Insane as it might seem, I still even own old 3.5 floppy games. There’s still NOTHING like the original Master of Magic on the market. Where it applies to eroge: I own a few PC-98 titles… which I can still enjoy even today, long after the publisher (not to mention hardware and operating system) has died away and become forgotten.

We Otaku are a collecting sort after all. :wink:

I’d then bet it’d be in one pass or not too long between each, so you won’t uninstall it.

And? I doubt you would have even noticed.

It seems a very special case, though, possibly happening because you review games and especially talked about this one. So, yes, it doesn’t seem like you’re having an habit of replaying your games. Some? Sure, but then you wouldn’t just uninstall them; for instance, I never uninstall my Toraha games since I played them about 8 years ago. I moved them to another disks/partitions, but never uninstalled.

So you’d rather not own anything than own it in a dematerialized form? It gives you a wonderful sense of ownership, indeed!

In conclusion, yes, you’re all whiners turning a molehill into a mountain. Not wanting to buy the games because of quality? That’s a good reason. Of price? That’s debatable but a valid reason (most people tend to always consider that anything is too expensive). But DRM? “Swatty-sama, the games I always wanted and claimed I wanted and pretended I prayed for them to come arrived, I won’t debate about the price nor the quality because they’re so much not important compared to the fact I have to activate the games! Never mind the fact the companies expressed that they’d be willing to give me additional activation codes if I used all of mine, as long as I can still prove I bought it! Hell no! No way I’m buying any of their games, no matter what, if there’s a DRM system!”
There, my honest opinion about the matter. Won’t discuss more about it since we’re running in circles.

Heh. I can see we’re clearly on two sides of the same battlefield here, and won’t come to a common ground of agreement. Which is good: I respect that. 8)

However I just wanna point out that I never said I wouldn’t buy anything with DRM ¬ñ indeed I’ve mention there are many occasions I have bought products with DRM. My beef was with the typos, remember? :stuck_out_tongue:

However I’ve been screwed by DRM as a legit buyer, so I know where these people are coming from. Therefore I don’t judge against them for not wanting to purchase. As customers we have a choice ¬ñ to buy or not to buy. What we don’t have a right to is steal (piracy). People don’t purchase products for a variety of reasons, and it’s their individual rights as consumers to make that choice: DRM included. It’s also clear we have different ways of handling our computers. By personal choice and nature of my work, I frequently zeroize my hard drives and reinstall a clean OS. Several of your ways are not acceptable to me, just as mine are not to you - neither are wrong or illegal. I’m sure each and every visitor to the forum has their own way of handling things. This is also what shapes our view of DRM.

As I said before: your money will talk for you. If MG is hugely successful in this venture, then this discussion will all be for naught. However if they fail, then it will behoove future companies to look over their failures and see why. Niche markets have this odd trait of also being incredibly opinionated: that’s what makes them niche. Do it wrong and you fail miserably; do it right and you find the loyalist buyers possible. Now we will see if MG is doing it right or wrong.

I’m in the same boat as you after all: I can already read Japanese fluently, so the success of MG doesn’t affect me personally. Would I like them to succeed? Of course. I’d love to have serious discussions about the darkest Liquid titles with more people. However would I pay 80 dollars - for what in my mind is a glorified rental fee? No. I wouldn’t. Partly because I can just order myself the Japanese original (cheaper too) ¬ñ but also partly because it goes against my lifestyle. Which is what these games merely are; another faucet of my lifestyle.

MG makes it more convenient for others; but we shall see if certain inconveniences make it worthwhile for them.

And yes… we have seriously taken this topic off the tracks: which technically rules that I should post massive amounts of twincest - but I don’t have my archive on this laptop… so you guys luck out this time. :stuck_out_tongue:

Keeping MG around, so they continue to translate and uncensor future titles. That’s really the key incentive to buying their titles. If the company is “worthy” for your money, is obviously a personal choice - but to say you hate a company for doing something unreasonable is one thing; to still use this “perceived flawed” product through other channels is not. It’s a matter of integrity… which sadly as you and many others have pointed out, is not exactly in huge demand these days.

Suckage. The download and registration company is still around though, right? You could always send them a polite email and let them know of your plight: especially if you still have the original order number/ticket.

Not to whine for the next few years about “why don’t Japanese erogame companies bring us acclaimed franchises”? As I write, fans should understand that they’re a starting, niche market. While not agreeing on anything for such a reason is a valid reason, wanting an access and conditions similar to massively popular and productive markets is unreasonable. Yes, pioneering fans in most markets usually have to compromise more (that includes paying more) than after the market becomes general audience, but it’s a condition for a market to open. Once again, I’m not talking about accepting to be fucked, but accepting compromises, and 5 activations with the promise to have a couple more as long as you can justify you bought the game is more than an acceptable compromise to me.
As for prices, the first anything in a country are usually pretty expensive.

OTOH, perhaps discount prices if you’re a regular buyer can be a good idea; or coupons. Or, since they may release merchandise in the future, limited offer/access to said merchandise if you have a customer ID? I think that could work: perhaps the Japanese companies could release limited edition merchandise that you could only buy if you bought a d/l game.

And yes: I agree with you on that matter. For those who REALLY wanted to own a translated copy of Da Capo, they will get it from MG - it probably wouldn’t matter if it had DRM, typos, or $80 to own. Simply put, these people want English Da Capo and will get it. Everything else be damned.

However if there are people who don’t want to own it due to limited downloads (or DRM) - that’s their right - and it doesn’t make them any less an erofan than someone who doesn’t care. For many its a matter of principal - and its perfectly legitimate to go against, just as its perfectly legitimate to support. Customers have a right to be picky: so long as they accept the consequences of their actions. I can tell full well you want MG to succeed. So do I. However for them to succeed, they will need to understand their customers. Expecting people to buy something, just because you make it available, is not how it works. They’ve done a wonderful thing in translating these titles; they’ve also made several mistakes.

DRM in of itself will not spell failure. Nor would limited downloads in of itself. DRM in combination with limited downloads causes more rumbling. Then you throw in additional factors: High price. Grammar flaws (verdict is still out; will know by tomorrow). Like a farmer once told me: “too much shit in the cart will make it stink, no matter how you dress it up.”

If MG fails, of course its the customer’s fault… but then, its also MG’s fault as well. Business requires opportunities made on both sides, and a compromise on a company making money and a customer getting the most for their buck… with a huge helping of expectations and a massive crushing of reality.

Looking at the main page of MG it appears they are releasing two games tomorrow and have lowered the price of Edelweiss to €24.95.

Aye. As well as Which girl should I choose? for €19.95 (same price as before), which supposedly I only own the beta of. I will repurchase it to see if this is so.

If the typos are gone, then they have found a customer in me. If not? I will bitch and moan again. OLF might wanna “auto ignore” my posts for a few days. :stuck_out_tongue:

You’d be wrong: I don’t give a damn about the matter. I just can’t keep out of a discussion (where i could debate) where I see people whine for no good reason.

I wrote repeatedly that I agree with any complain about quality, or even price though it dropped to ¬Ä25, so you cannot really say “Swatty-sama! It’s laincursed expensive!!”

Yea, but inevitably my anger will make me hate the DRM and limited downloads even moar. Narg takes his twins seriously… even the fraternal kind. :wink:

Also the price thing really isn’t that bad for this twin title (price was always ¬Ä19.95) - which is why I picked it for experiment. The ones that made me balk, are the Circus titles.

Edelweiss
and
Which girl should I choose?

now on sale

everything else has been pushed back to August 10.

Did anyone download or know a place i can view the promotional movie on the website?
‘Boshojo talks about Bishojo Games and MangaGamer.com Promotion Movie’

It’s been inactive since i first saw it about 5 days ago.

Edit:
I purchased both games, and later on tonight i will tell you if theirs any improvements from the pictures originally posted.

One look at the Winny/Share/Perfect Dark network and you’ll see just about every single Japanese product known to man from 1980-2008 available for download. Part of what makes that network so popular is because it’s not like BitTorrent where 3 years after something is released, the torrent dies. In this case, it’s always available, it also hides your identity and hides what you’re downloading. It’s a pirate’s paradise. I am rather distressed the Japanese companies view us foreigners as a bunch of thieves and pirates.

The Japanese have overlooked their own piracy because they’ve done a good job of hiding it, much like they don’t pay attention to their crime rates and blame foreigners as the #1 cause of crime. But seriously, when the #1 piracy medium for Japanese internet users hides your identity and encrypts your uploads/downloads the only reasonable amount of data you could ascertain is quantity of users and existence of files. How many said files are being downloaded by how many users is likely unknown unless I overlooked something.

Finally Japan has always been more of a control oriented society, even if there might be a bit of a double standard on DRM, I don’t believe free-market forces dictate demand there, otherwise Wal-Mart as a company wouldn’t have failed there. This is a society that passively accepts any decision made by those in power, from the shaken test conspiracy between government and automakers, to the legal system that guarantees a guilty sentence if the police press charges. When the Plutocrats ask Mr. Ken Nihonjin to jump, he’ll bow and respond with “How High?”. In the Japanese corporations’ minds the customers don’t dictate how they do business, the corporations tell the customers what they want, and how they will buy it.

For me DRM is just one of those inevitable hoops we’re going to have to jump through to get access to something Japanese as foreigners, because we jump through similar hoops when it comes to buying property in Japan, renting apartments, obtaining visas, selling something there, starting a business there etc. They just don’t like sharing anything no matter how much money we throw at them. Not unless you count office products, machinery and vehicles; however even then they still keep the good stuff for themselves.

MG is taking a terrible risk here, I wouldn’t be surprised if the straight arrows that hang out in this forum take to piracy just because of the DRM. We’ll just never know about it because no one would admit to such a thing. I believe that rampant piracy of a product is a failure of the company to make one worth paying for, not a problem of the users and their morality. There’s no guarantee locking up games in an elaborate clusterfuck DRM scheme that fries your hard drive when tampered with will ensure people stop pirating. If the figures say that 80,000 copies of game X were downloaded in the past year, does that really constitute 80,000 potential customers that turned to piracy? There is NO guarantee that those 80,000 downloaders would have bought the game if the piracy alternative didn’t exist. Adding DRM to arrest that piracy statistic only causes the unskilled to simply abandon the product because now not only are they paying 80 dollars for a gimped product, but they have no piracy alternative to either. In the end, it’s a lose-lose situation for the company.

This industry needs to embrace Stardock’s system of simply not bothering with copy protection at all. Think about how much money they save not even having to invest in that DRM crap? Think about how much lower the prices are as a result? Unfortunately, H-games don’t have a long life. Stardock wins on having no DRM because the people who buy their games spend a lot of their time playing it online and downloading regular updates that their serial key enables them to obtain.

Finally to Olf:

If you think that people installing and re-installing their games constitutes a myth, you’re sorely mistaken.
I have a 270gb and 120 gb hard drive. On BOTH drives I’m CONSTANTLY shuffling the remaining 8-16 gigs of space I have left as I uninstall and reinstall various games and programs. You’re stacking theory only works so long as there is space, but eventually people start doing the shuffle until they either buy a new machine with larger disks or just upgrade their existing drives. I for one refuse to spend money on another computer. I spent over 3000 on this one 4 years ago and I have no intention of spending another 3000 just to keep up with the specs. Racing with the hardware manufacturers is destroying my money that is better spent on other things, like a PS3 and the games to go with it.

So when do I expect to see these kind of games on Steam? :lol:

All this DRM talk makes me wonder if it’s inevitable for people to buy the japanese games and then have them patched with english translation and uncensored CG just to avoid the DRM. Nah, that’s just too much work, right?

The DRM is usually centered around the install program or the EXE. A smart coder can just cut out the DRM and make a crack. You don’t need to go through all that other crap. A potential patch to escape the DRM issue can be as small as 250 kilobytes. In 2 seconds 20 dollars of the 80 dollar price tag for these games goes bye bye. Which is why we’re all trying to make the point that DRMing a product only inconveniences the legitimate consumer, pirates can get around it in a real jiffy.

Full-game reviews eagerly awaited from those who purchase! (Since I’m awfully picky about what I like in a game, their webpage info is scanty, and their fake translations of titles make it even harder to find anything out.)

I’m going to be busy with YMK for a while though. :slight_smile: Just got through my first h-scene and I must say I was impressed… that’s possibly the first h-scene in a game that I didn’t frantically skip through rolling my eyes at its awfulness. It was actually well-written. :slight_smile:

hopefully this company will get games like the shuffle trilogy or happiness delux

And this is precisely my complaint. I never got screwed, however, because I looked at the mere possibility they could decide to screw me and said “no way”. Hence my ten year rule. It isn’t that I definitely WILL; in fact, I probably won’t. But for the things I DO want to replay, I will not tolerate deliberate sabotage of something I bought.

Copyright owners do not get to dictate anything to me. Their rights AND my rights are important. Simply saying that me insisting on my rights is “not compromising” then saying I should just go along with anything the companies say is just as one-sided as freetards who cheerfully hoist the Jolly Roger.

Furthermore, I was less making demands than pointing out the obvious. Whether Olf thinks it’s a valid point or not, it IS a valid point, because large numbers of the potential audience WILL take it into account. As they will the lack of physical product and the price. That’s my honest estimation of what is likely to happen.

And yes, the Japanese makers do need us. If what I’m hearing about the overseas market is right (and it easily could be wrong), the Japanese market is in trouble. And the companies responded by releasing MORE games, to try to avoid loss of cash flow. All of this means there is a risk of a bottom-falling-out in the future. G-collections had serious backing of a big conglomerate, that big conglomerate almost went under.

Mangagamer is not cheap, not if they’re releasing so many games so quickly. If mangagamer fails, there will be real fallout from this. And as I see it, mangagamer is like to fail. Every single company that has ever gotten into this market has died, except for those run by Peter Payne, and this is only because he runs J-List. And MangaGamer proposes to do less for more money? And they actually expect this to work? I’m sorry, but the history just won’t support that conclusion.

Furthermore – what does Peter do when there is controversy? He listens, like the time he backed down from putting V-Mate on Doushin.

It is good to see the price has gone down. Very good, in fact, as that was one of the chief reasons I believed they were doomed. The market just isn’t used to paying that much for ANY game, and at the old price they would get exactly zero people buying who weren’t already fans of eroge.

I noticed as well on a visit to their site that some of the games slated for release on July 10th got bumped back a month to August 10th. Others beyond that date got bumped a month as well.

While I’m not a big fan of release dates being pushed back, if this means that those games are getting a serious editing job done to them to make them quality products, I’m all for it.

And the drop in price is a very good sign. DRM issues aside, the price point was a real deterrent for me and, I am sure, lots others.