My thoughts and opinions of the bishoujo game industry (

ok i need to add some things here…there are some points that i think you don’t understand, absurdist, which need to be clarified…i want to say first and foremost that all your ideas for expanding the market are good ones, and that when i was new to the bishoujo industry and its workings, i had very similar ones…but after spending clsoe to two years getting embroiled in it and working closely with Jast, PeaPri, and now G-Collections, I havE learned quite a few things, some also learned from direct contact with people who have responded to my site and such…i hope my voice is somewhat respected on this board, being a goddess and all , so i can get away with making a somewhat preachy kumiko-ish speech but she/he did make some very good points that i think some of us have forgotten

first, yes, it would be wonderful if peapri and other english companies could get great sales and show those sales…but the main obstacle to this is the MINDSET of the north american society…we are brought up to believe that sex is an evil immoral act that should be kept behind closed doors…it is a taboo in our society rather than a natural part of it…therefore, there is more opposition to any type of game with sex in it than there would be for any violence or other type of offensive material…for example, there are numerous games out there with grotesque awful graphic-beyond-belief violence, yet these are released every day without a peep of protest from pretty much anyone…yet in a game there was a huge outcry and a huge setback while the programmers had to redesign whole levels because originally the game creators wanted to give their race of blue-skinned topless women nipples…this is just one small example of America’s sex-phobia…if you like sex and admit it, you are a pervert and there is something wrong with you…stores, retailers, and many others do not want to take the step of selling adult games because of the stereotyping and bad publicity they would receive…a game like this would probably sell very well and they may even know it, but the risk is in being black-balled by society…adult movies are slowly being accepted as ‘dirty movies lonely guys watch’, so sales of those as long as they are hidden from the eyes of the casual shopper is accepted now, but most people will hide the cover of the movie box as they head to the cash register and blush while purchasing it, because there is still such stigma

i have received email from people asking me how i can possibly have a site like i do that degrades women and shows them as objects, and about how i really shouldn’t post a picture of myself because then people will know who i am and what a pervert i am…sex has a seriously screwed-up image in the american eye…american porn has made us view porn as stupid, pointless, often comical portrayals of women being idiots and slutty whores…so most of us do not realize that porn can have a meaning, a story, and emotion that can make you cry…and even worse, most americans associate anime-inspired adult material as ‘tentacle sex’ and nothing more…i have brought up bishouj to dozens of people at conventions, personal friends and contacts, and others…half of them have dismissed it outright as stupid pornography with no point, and the others have put up blatant arguments about not being into ‘tentacle sex and that weird demon-rape shit’…only a few were even willing ot look at a game to see what it was about, and those few were very very surprised by the depth of theg ames and commented about how it’s ‘not what i expected at all’…

the main obstacle to the bishoujo gaming market in america is to break through that wall of stereotyping, misinformation, assumption, and closed-mindedness…and americans are notorious for being stubborn…it’s a battle of many years, not months…

another point that must be brought up is that you are right in that if we got better games, people would take a better look at them and judge them more fairly…but PeaPri and others have little to no say in what games they get…as mentioned above, most companies refuse to delve into the english market…it’s expensive and not worth their time…they don’t NEED american sales at all…they have their hands full keeping their japanese customers happy…so peapri and others take the games they can get their hands on and work with that…i personally don’t like X-change, i think it’s rather pointless and silly, but i know there are better games out there and we need to support what is there NOW to get those better games…we are caught in a catch 22…until there are better, deeper, longer more impressive bishoujo games, americans won’t take it seriously, but until americans show enough of an interest to generate sales that the japanese have to take notice of, we won’t get those better games…it’s a vicious cycle…

it is a very expensive and involved process to localize a game…when peapri first started up, they were paying out of THEIR OWN POCKETS because they desired to bring these games to the english market…they may still be paying out of pocket for all i know…and things are made more complicated by the fact that americans are spoiled little brats who want everything their way and have no respect…we hate sex, fear it, and shun it, but if we are GOING to have it, we want to be able to see everything damn it…no crappy mosaics! it takes months of extra work and delays to get the japanese artists to redraw all the sex scenes in games for an audience that doesn’t even want their work, as faR AS THEY KNOW…localization would be much easier if americans would respect cultural differences and accept mosaics as a part of the artform…there are games right now that have been licensed or are being offered for license where mosaics are a necessity due to loss of original art files and such (Dokusen, for example), which are wonderful games and a great boon to the genre, but PeaPri wonders if they should even bother, because their meager sales will probably be halved by people going 'ewwww, mosaics, i’m not buying that crap’

there is more i want to say and comment on, but my brain is shutting down due to tiredness, so i think i will just wait and see what the response is to all this

Thank you my goddess. You are of course right on target as usual. PeachPrincess does not design games from the ground up. They only offer what the Japanese companies will give them. As the market and the demand grow, hopefully so will the selection of games, but the market and demand must grow.

I think Goddess hit the main nail. Cultural thinking has a huge factor. Alot of Japanese get a Chinese release. (pity I can’t read either language.) There are monthly magazines here that reviews and provide tips and tricks. The delay from Japanese is also not long, usually a couple of months. (Culture differences between Japanese and Chinese is minimal or the same so not many “tricky” translations.)

However, sex is also very taboo in Taiwan and Hong Kong. (even more so, because it not part of the education system.) So why the same situation doesn’t occur like in the US but not in these said places? I always been wondering about that.

One thing I have noticed. The bishoujo theme is very popular here. So maybe this has something to do with it.

quote:
Originally posted by Absurdist:
The fact that it features hentai movies is enough to get them into a world of trouble with many developers that made cool devices and other such things.

[This message has been edited by Absurdist (edited 09-01-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Absurdist (edited 09-01-2002).]


Well, then smack them. Either they are defrauding people who sign up or they are pirating. And even if they are defrauding, you could argue that it creates an environment condoning piracy and get them on contributory infringement.

Broad, overreaching laws have their convenient uses.

quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
As Nandemonai points out, thism is also a very good idea. Haven't doen that, at least not yet, but I have a few friends and cousins who might like Brave Soul, and another of my cousins might be interested in Slave Bazaar, just because of the historical background. And to those who can't afford it or don't do it for some other reason: we do understand, everyone has his/her own way of supportign PP, and if you jsut want to do it to a certain degree, then it's your choice [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img].

I let my friends borrow my copies of the games. My roommate last semester had as much access to my CDs as I wanted. He doesn't have much money, so I don't think I was able to convince him to buy 'em...but he knows they're good games now, and that they're not just sex. Which is always good...and I made damn sure he knew how Pea Pri was doing financially. (The first words out of his mouth when I showed the games to him was a lot of begging me to let him make copies. I cured that real fast.)

quote:
Originally posted by ladyphoenix:
first, yes, it would be wonderful if peapri and other english companies could get great sales and show those sales....but the main obstacle to this is the MINDSET of the north american society...we are brought up to believe that sex is an evil immoral act that should be kept behind closed doors....it is a taboo in our society rather than a natural part of it....therefore, there is more opposition to any type of game with sex in it than there would be for any violence or other type of offensive material....for example, there are numerous games out there with grotesque awful graphic-beyond-belief violence, yet these are released every day without a peep of protest from pretty much anyone....yet in a game there was a huge outcry and a huge setback while the programmers had to redesign whole levels because originally the game creators wanted to give their race of blue-skinned topless women nipples.....this is just one small example of America's sex-phobia....if you like sex and admit it, you are a pervert and there is something wrong with you....

I find it very interesting that I have been afraid of the reverse discrimination on this board for a long time. I have never mentioned that I have nothing against violent stuff mostly because I was afraid it would affect my reputation on this board.

Yes, I like Berserk. I thought it was great because there IS a story, and it is very well done. Most anime in the uberviolence genre...well...flat out sucks. There's little characterization and it's just...bad. Berserk is different--it's actually done well.

I also like Card Captor Sakura, which is almost as much of a polar opposite as you can get. I also like Tiny Snow Fairy Sugar. And Snow Drop.

Go figure.

quote:
Originally posted by ladyphoenix:
i have received email from people asking me how i can possibly have a site like i do that degrades women and shows them as objects, and about how i really shouldn't post a picture of myself because then people will know who i am and what a pervert i am....sex has a seriously screwed-up image in the american eye....american porn has made us view porn as stupid, pointless, often comical portrayals of women being idiots and slutty whores.....so most of us do not realize that porn can have a meaning, a story, and emotion that can make you cry....

A minor nitpick, and a serious comment. The nitpick first: no, porn can not have a meaning, a story, or emotion. By definition. If it does, then it has redeeming value and is therefore not porn. None of Peach Princess' games have been porn, with the exception of XChange. And please, we all know I virulently detest XChange, so let's not get sidetracked. At least, not on this thread. (Water Closet may or may not be porn, I haven't played it so I'm not qualified to judge.)

And I will say that most of those people do not know what they are talking about because they did not play the games in question. Even playing some of the older b-games that were released here wouldn't dispel the illusion that these games are porn and not serious works, and certainly no American sexually explicit works would do the trick either. So most of the people writing these emails are making logical extrapolations from their incomplete knowledge. (There are, of course, always nutcases out there and none of this applies in the slightest to a nutcase, who has odd reality-bending beliefs as a matter of course.)

Ah, yes, I forgot that one…that sex is the idea of evil to many americans . Curses!

quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
I let my friends borrow my copies of the games. My roommate last semester had as much access to my CDs as I wanted. He doesn't have much money, so I don't think I was able to convince him to buy 'em...but he knows they're good games now, and that they're not just sex. Which is always good...and I made damn sure he knew how Pea Pri was doing financially. (The first words out of his mouth when I showed the games to him was a lot of begging me to let him make copies. I cured that real fast.)

Well,t hat would be the first reaction of many, I think... "Please copy the gmaes for me!" or "let me borrow the gmaes so i can copy them1". And there lies the danger in borrowing the gmaes to other people, but it is often a risk we have to take, or so I think. At least, even if your friend can't buy them, he can at least argue on the behalf of the gmaes if someone critices the games.

Well goddess I did mention the whole mindset thing but I didnt want to get into it too deeply… I can see why you are reffered to as a goddess. Your probably one of the only women who are involved with bishoujo games and furthermore your comments and opinions on the matter are quite intelligent and right on the mark…

The whole taboo thing I don’t understand… I also don’t understand why you must be a certain age to look at porn. I know for a fact most underage people look at pornography. Hell I bet there are a lot of underage people on this board. Frankly I see no point in setting down an age thing.

For those who arent in their teens and they see that kind of sex thing they would probably just laugh it off or say its sick and not look at it. For those who are teenagers they deal with it in the same way as adults do.

So really I dont understand why there is a huge taboo on this… I blame the church they preached this kinda crap everywhere and made people think its evil… What we need is another age of sexual liberism like we had in the 70s and 60s. This time making it OK for companies like PP to sell their stuff in places like Best Buy and EB.

Although I am originally from Germany. Of pure Aryan blood… I wish I was Japanese… Deep inside me I feel that Japan is my home country. Although Ive never been there ive read up on their culture and I must say I really like the way they do things. I prefer Japanese anime over regular shows here in American. I prefer to look at asian porn and hentai much more then I prefer looking at american porn.

But as for the united states the whole country evolved from a puritan relgious standpoint that exists even now. In one way or another they have become just as fanatic as the muslims in places like afganistan during taliban rule…

Except it doesn’t appear to be religous… They just appear as laws and common sense so you dont really notice that american values and laws are actually heavily influenced by religion. But oh well I guess it can’t be helped. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.

But phoenix I can see why people worship you as a goddess… However I do not wish to degrade myself to that level. If your going to talk to me then we are going to talk like civilized people and not some Goddess Worshipper sort of thing.

quote:
Originally posted by Absurdist:
(...)
Hell I bet there are a lot of underage people on this board.

I doubt so. The BBS is forbidden to people younger than 18. If you want to know why, it's because of the law. And as a company, PeachPri can't go againt the law. Point.
quote:
(...)
But phoenix I can see why people worship you as a goddess... However I do not wish to degrade myself to that level. If your going to talk to me then we are going to talk like civilized people and not some Goddess Worshipper sort of thing.

Oh, Lain-sama... Absurdist-san, the fact that we "worship" ladyphoenix-sama as one of the Three Bishoujo Goddesses is but a private joke of this board. You see, as in probably all BBS, regulars from this one know and respect and like much each other. Treating ladyphoenix-sama like one of our three goddesses is just part of the showing of our affection/friendship to her...

[This message has been edited by olf_le_fol (edited 09-02-2002).]

exactly and we all know that the most important thing to me is that you worship bishoujo in all its forms, not me whether or not you want to refer to me as a goddess is entirely your choice…i admit i kind of like the joke and being able to tell people i’m a goddess with worshippers, but it’s mostly an affectionate joke

ahhhhhhh… i have much to learn… I hope i dont show any disrespect.

quote:
Originally posted by olf_le_fol:
Originally posted by Absurdist:
(...)
Hell I bet there are a lot of underage people on this board.

I doubt so. The BBS is forbidden to people younger than 18. If you want to know why, it's because of the law. And as a company, PeachPri can't go againt the law.


What, you really think that stops the underage kids from lying on the registration application? Simply saying "...but that would be...illegal" doesn't actually mean people don't do it.

quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
What, you really think that stops the underage kids from lying on the registration application? Simply saying "...but that would be...illegal" doesn't actually mean people don't do it.
Would that mean... you're underaged, Nandemonai-san? ::gasps::
Okay, let's say I said "I hope" rather than "I doubt", okay?
quote:
Originally posted by olf_le_fol:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
What, you really think that stops the underage kids from lying on the registration application? Simply saying "...but that would be...illegal" doesn't actually mean people don't do it.

Would that mean... you're underaged, Nandemonai-san? ::gasps::

Okay, let's say I said "I hope" rather than "I doubt", okay?


Heh. Trust me, I am far more devious than that. If I really were underaged I would not have said that. (Nor would I have had a bank account with which to place a Pea Pri order, for that matter, and I especially wouldn't have things shipped to my house :P)

And I'd say it's fairly safe to assume that someone who is underaged has at one point or another posted to this board. Statistically speaking, of course.

Not to mention that most people here spell out correctly and can at least string a few proper sentences. I don’t know about the rest of the people on this board, but it take me a long time to read some like, “o ic r l4m3 ppl…” Yeah, it easy to write, hard to understand. (Although I must admin do this often in EQ.)

I’m not speaking in any particular order, but as for graphics, the 3d version of tokimeki was a huge flop.

Now for games evolving, we have played I would say less than 1% of the bishoujo titles from japan, english translated that is. I personally enjoy the story lines of the games, When you are sayng games need to evolve like Brave Soul, that is a biased remark, brave soul is just an rpg with sexual content. There are a ton of them in japan right now, and there have been a ton of them in the past starting way back in the day.

The simple fact about bishoujo games is, most people in america are going to play the game for the sex, and not the story. THe few people who really appreciate the story pale in comparission to the many who don’t.

Ok, I don’t want to go off any more about this because there are a million huge posts already. This is just my opinion.

Just remember, games don’t need to evolve, they need to diversify. Ex… Steam Hearts, knights of xentar/brave soul, TCI, sentimental graffiti, EBE, kotobuki.

Well, looking at the latest PC Angle. There are a few games using 3D. They look nice and very scary at the same time. Been 3D and well render, it’s like looking at a perfect person so to speak. (you know, smooth skin etc.) That kinda of scary to me because the only time that I see people like that is in funeral where the dead is “done up”. Not sure if the trend is heading that way Japan.

Personal I find this genre to be an art. Both graphicly and story execution. The most important thing is, do I walk away from a game and still think about and (in a good way) did I have fun playing it? (ok two points)

quote:
Originally posted by Absurdist:
3. Finally you must somehow make these games available on store shelves. Your sales will jump at this as many dont like ordering from the internet. Also considering getting advertisement deals with magazines like PCGAMER. This will further make bishoujo grow into a huge industry. However when you design these adverts and game boxes that would be shipped to stores like Electronics boutique. You should make sure the game box doesnt contain actual adult content. Same should be done with the adverts. I don't believe this should be done immediately but once you make a significant profit from the overhauls and won the IDSA's trust this is an unavoidable step that should be taken.

A while back I probably would have agreed with everything you said. After some thought though, I tend to disagree about what the problems of bishoujo gaming are. I consider bishoujo gmaing to be a niche within a niche. Either as a niche within the anime market or to a lesser extent a niche within the porn market. I don't think the wider general audience type store such as Best Buy are likely to retail bishoujo games. Their general audience customers just aren't interested or informed enough for it to work. I'd think planting a seed within specialty shops would work better. Getting your local anime dealer, comic shop, or porn store is less of a stretch for their customers (go small not big). Although the oddest experience for me is a customer saying yuck, to a hentai game and then go running over to look through the yaoi dojinshis. Next I don't think the sex issue is really that much of a problem. Yes, there is a certain quality to the American character that is sheepish about sex. But, the sales say other wise. Despite this sheepishness, porn is a larger market in the USA then the NBA, MLB, NFL, and NHL combined. This a quoted statistic by Bill Oreilly on the Oreilly Factor. I'm not quite sure if the Japanese realize this. In the words of Grr from invader zim "I don't know." Stating this the best thing that could happen to Pea Pri would be if they could actually choose the titles they want, rather than being given whatever they Japanese feel like giving them, as to give the Americans what they want. I find that half the games are really good and the other half I hate. A real bright spot, are the next 2 upcoming games Brave Soul and X-Change 2. Brave Soul may as an RPG bring in a whole new type of gamer, the "rpg player" to try it and branch in. A game I liked, X-Change, ducks as various things are thrown at him, has seemingly had mild success in the general public. I think it has a certain appeal in story and in simplicity. Curse you Snow Drop, game of my misery, ducks again. Very beutiful, nice story, still trying to figure out a different ending (too complicated). I think X-Change 2 can build on this as much better done game. In my opinion I think this game will eventually rise as Pea Pri best seller with an unknown factor in Brave Soul though maybe thwarting my prediction.