Pick game known for being hardcore to translate
Have translator translate all the scenes
Announce you’re removing all the hardcore content
Alienate the audience for this product
gj
Errm in Starless, two characters are not even 18 (I won’t name who they are) but according to the progression of the story, one doesn’t have to be a genius to figure out that those two characters are of at least 5 to 6 years younger than the main protagonist, who is 18 years of age, as he is about to head out to University (which is the appropriate age for Japanese students to pass their high school and move to college). Although they never talk about the age in the game, they do discuss the “young-ness” of these characters, particularly for one of the character who has young, pre-pubescent-like voice (a la girly voice or Justin Bieber haha). And what about incest theme? I thought this was illegal too on some instances? Starless is filled with incest theme and I am not sure how you guys will maintain that, unless you changed the dialogues and mashed it up in such way that they are all unrelated or something. Haha that would be hilarious and a tragedy, like Shakespearean plays. :? Oh well I will know the difference since I can read little bit Japanese and I played through the Japanese version very thoroughly, so I understand the entire story pretty well, including all the dialogues.
By the way, I can see everyone is asking this question but no one is answering, especially the official staffs and that is if the patches are released, will they be fan made or official? And if they are official, will they restore every CG that are cut to their fullest uncensored and English glories or will they be censored but just in English? If the patches are released by the fan, then I can imagine the CG will be censored and half-assed translated to English, but I sure hope it doesn’t come to that.
Thanks for your replies.
Also this because you didn’t have to wait 3 years for that. You could have just come out flat immediately after it was announced licensed that you guys made a HUGE mistake when you decided to license one of the MOST hardcore game ever made and now decided to release the game but many things will be cut. Bam…all the dramas, anticipations, and waiting could have been ended 3 years ago. :roll:
Edit: I would also like to point out that the outcries over banned contents mostly target the ones that are fully animated and/or intentionally stick out. Rapely made such massive headline because, well…first, the title itself gives away to everyone and second, when people play it, all they see is animated gameply where they do…errm things to girls that are outrageous. For visual novel, it just art that has voices and writings. It’s like reading manga and I have never seen manga being questioned or brought in to the spotlight by any activists or any groups. Most of these materials (in fact, all of the controversies) were brought attention because they have explicit animated scenes that show the carnage. Starless is just still pictures with writings in them and voices and I have no idea how this can bring controversies when people will see girls are having sex with animals, which are available most adult websites that are run by Western artist who like to draw bestiality. Unless people who sit through the game and read every texts and listen every voices, they can’t cry outrage by simply looking at still pictures of girls having sex with animals or they are pooping all over the screens. Haha
Just to clarify–all that’s being removed is CGs, right? No changes to the text or missing lines?
You’re right that Australia is incredibly conservative, problematically so. But last I checked, selling unrated games is illegal in Australia. Since you don’t get your games rated, they’re NG no matter what content they have. Technically, you shouldn’t even ship your games to Australia.
Legally speaking, there’s probably not much that could be done in a US court. The game would likely pass the MIller Test. Canada is a different matter, and it’s probably a significant market for J-List–but many of your games are already on their banned from import list. I doubt the content cuts would be enough to allow this game to escape the same fate.
Overall, I’m not sure I buy the legal argument, though I can certainly understand the desire to not spawn another Rapelay incident.
Thanks for the informative reply Peter. Got my copy ordered and picked up two other games I need for my collection. Hope more info on the booklet contents might be added once finalized.
is that a poo related pun :twisted: :lol:
No one wants a huge problem, and be the center of a shit storm. Well maybe the masochist do.
Starless could still be target even cut, even Littlewitch Romanesque could be a target and labeled a game for pedo’s who like to groom very young looking but “over 18 girls”. Fans of the VN medium have grown since the Rapelay issue. The hard work, risk, and passion from people and companies growing the medium of VN’s regardless, and the amazing variety available from all the different creators to the the fan base is what makes it what it is now. We have films like the human centipede, that shock and horror people and game like GTAV where you can have sex with a prostitute then blow her brains out yet this didn’t stop the commercial success, in light of negative press. Then you have real porn that goes from soft to extremely hardcore.
Any fan of VN know the variety available and pick up what cater to personal preference and taste. Starless is for those who are more perversely deviant and seeking that sort of enjoyment with amazing art work to go with the story. While a game like Littlewitch Romanesque is for those who want a cuter, sim-rasing theme and this variety of availability appeals to different audiences yet grows the whole medium.
Moenovel was started by WILL and it’s a shame what they did to If My Heart had Wings and didn’t wanna release a uncut 18+ version to compare data sales. I believe this is the stance of WILL higher-ups in regards to localization.
And what about AN OPTION to turn scat/bloody content on/off? Just make special checkbox in options menu - this way it will make every possible customer happy. Is it THAT difficult?
Also, afaik scat is LEGAL everywhere - why so cautious? 0_0 Even if moralguardians would be angry - so what? They angry about every possible porn out there - or even violent game - it just brings more popularity (and money) for those.
And no, it’s not Rapelay case - since this game is about femdom. Feminist will not be interested in this - this game main target audience is masochistic man. And why you cut the most focal point of masofap content - extreme humiliation form which will make any masochist extreme happy? What do you think your potential customer would feel now?
Also, some quote from vndb:
" Also, yes, fans will probably fix it. By hacking in the original images from exhentai or wherever. Which is strictly speaking, illegal. Sure, nobody will give a damn, but still. Also, this’ll just endorse piracy: if fans fix it, then the fixed version is going to be up as torrent, with “UNCENSORED VERSION” in the title. You can take a guess where will people get there copy. Especially considering that censoring things is a berserk button for many. And let’s face it: this is hardcore porn with a whole range of kinks. The “ban violence in media!” and the “ban porn!” fundamentalist crowd, the ones that advocates such censorship the most loudly, are not exactly their target audience."
But that means these groups of people will still have to use censored CG from the original game. This will have no values anyway as it just goes back to squire one. You’re better off with the original censored Japanese version than pitiful attempts on adding the missing cgs from the censored Japanese version of the game. Unless they have access to the uncensored cg for the patch, no matter what these groups come up with, it will still be incomplete and pointless.
Also, I just checked the amounts of CGs of the scat and bestiality contents from the original game, and if my counting is correct, I say about 70-75 CGs were combined to express those fetishes. If that many CGs are actually stripped from the uncensored version, then…well that’s just very bad, particularly when they are charging almost 50 bucks for the game (limited edition).
I’m probably not the target audience for Starless to begin with, but I have to say that I completely respect and approve of the way Peter is handling the outreach over these edits. I feel like we’re seeing a lot of lessons learned from the school of hard PR knocks from previous censored releases. For example…
[list]* We’re getting clear advance notice of exactly what was changed months in advance and mere days after it was placed up for pre-order.
- The message is posted right on the forums, where the folks most aware of the original’s details and who would be most concerned about changes will easily find it.
- We received a sound argument for the changes that were made from an artistic, legal, and business statement that pretty much covers all conceivable bases that I can think of.
- Dissenting opinion is being respected, and JAST is giving its blessing to an unofficial fan patch to a product they probably paid a hefty amount to license in its existing state(!). Tell me the last time you heard that come out of a gaming company’s mouth?
- We’ve been assured that no material change was made to the plot, all endings are intact, and only a few CGs are affected in a game with 3,000 of them.[/list]
Did that cover the list of usual shitstorm kindling? Good good good.
I can and do respect those who oppose any edits ever from a principled anti-censorship standpoint, but I feel like it’s misplaced criticism in a case like this. Ten, even five years ago, I don’t think the visual novel industry would have touched a Starless localization with a 10-foot pole. The argument that “I’m sure it would hold up in court” is honestly more academic than sensible when you get down to it . Think about it: what rational company not possessed of a gigantic profit margin would willingly and knowingly place themselves in a position where they would wind up getting sued in court to begin with? Especially since the prospective judge or jury would almost certainly approach the case from a standpoint that the problem scenes are incredibly obscene? You’d better hope for damned sure that bewigged gentleman has a few copies of Water Closet and Little My Maid stacked beneath his legal reviews if you want to stand a chance.
The fact that we are getting games like Starless and Littlewitch Romanesque 99.7% uncensored is something of a small miracle that I’m very grateful for. It shows JAST is dedicated to the artistic integrity of the medium and respects its fans enough to reach out to them over changes that clearly weren’t their druthers to begin with. I know some people will miss the removed content, but it is what it is, and I appreciate the forthrightness with which this was handled.
After all, legal business is some serious shit, and way too risky to screw the pooch over. (Now, I just hope no one chops off my willy for this post. Ahyuck-hyuck-huck…)
That wording… 
Note that we’re not making any changes in this game at all. By our judgement, any reasonable person would judge the game to have valid artistic merit.
Yes. Originally we had planned on releasing a full version some day potentially, but all the negativity of the cuts turned us off on the idea. We might reconsider if there’s interest, and if Will was on board.
Jacksprat1, thanks for your comments. Yes, we knew about all this going in. I told Will, this game has too many issues and fans hate it when we alter content for any reason, but Will was really eager to have fans play the game, and of course to get “secondary use” out of their IP they’d spent 5 years (!) making.
[quote=“jacksprat1”]
The fact that we are getting games like Starless and Littlewitch Romanesque 99.7% uncensored is something of a small miracle that I’m very grateful for. It shows JAST is dedicated to the artistic integrity of the medium and respects its fans enough to reach out to them over changes that clearly weren’t their druthers to begin with. I know some people will miss the removed content, but it is what it is, and I appreciate the forthrightness with which this was handled.
[/quote"]
Happily no changes were made at all to Littlewitch Romanesque. (Or to the vast majority of our titles…)
He can’t for the same reason he has to cut the content in the first place. If Jast officially releases a patch, legally it’s basically the same difference as if they’d just released it that way in the original version. The criminal offenses involved all pertain to the “crime” of distribution.
Please do. I played Princess Waltz, and I want more stuff from Pulltop. I could not support what Moenovel did to that game, but I still want the game. Very badly. (Yes, I know there’s an uncensor patch. If I buy the game, then I’m telling MoeNovel to do what they did to more games. So the patch is useless to me, because I do not own that version, and never will.)
Honestly, after the drama involving KK’s censorship five years ago and JAST USA’s unwillingness to undo it, I’m not surprised that you guys are going to censor this. I’ve seen the CGs before, and it definitely seemed like the kind of content that you guys would cut. It’s kinda sad I was able to anticipate something like this.
Unlike five years ago, I’m not going to engage in any “debates” with the forum members here that defend your decision to alter or cut content. I realized that by engaging in prolonged arguments with them, I ended up giving their voices legitimacy, so I’m just going to address just you, Peter. However, by engaging in an argument with you, I also am aware that I risk giving legitimacy to your company’s poorly-construed decision. Therefore, expect this to be my only post on this issue.
I’m not supporting your release. I don’t care about whether you believe depictions of shit, yiffing, or forced penectomies are considered illegal in places like Britland, Euroland, Aussieland, or Jesusland–You know my standards. The fact that you felt it was up to you to “protect” some of us by blanket-censoring the release for all regions instead of letting us be responsible adults and decide for ourselves whether the content is illegal in our respective regions only serves to insult me even more.
Furthermore, you state that most of us will agree that this content is outside of the comfort zone of most fans. I would like to how you got to this conclusion. I don’t recall you making any attempts to study what kind of content we’re willing to tolerate. I don’t ever recall seeing any surveys released on fans’ opinions of “extreme” content. I don’t recall your company having discussions here on what kind of content fans are capable of stomaching. No one here was consulted on their opinions of the content you censored–How am I supposed to believe this decision wasn’t in part because it was outside your comfort zone?
All it takes is for you or one of your staff to be uncomfortable with the content to be justification enough to cut it out. How were you able to come to the conclusion that your fans won’t be able to tolerate such content without injecting what might possibly be your own personal tastes into the localization process?
Potential conflict of personal tastes aside, your company had the license to this title for years, yet you’re coming out now about how you’re censoring this? Gimme a break. If the vanilla but “underage” content in Family Project was enough to make you paranoid back back in 2009, it’s pretty obvious that the “extreme” content in Starless was never going to fly from the very first time you guys saw the CGs.
Nevertheless, regardless of your reasons to wait until now to announce your decision to censor, the mystery still boils down to why you even decided to risk licensing this in the first place, especially considering the fact that the content you aren’t planning on censoring would be just as equally subject to risk of potential legal issues anyways.
However, I’m aware of the possibility that you might have found the content acceptable when you initially acquired the license to this game, but decided to censor it now due to potential recent changes in the political environment, whatever they may be.
If this is true, my response is unchanged–[color=#FF0000]It is still entirely JAST USA’s fault[/color]. This game has been subject to a protracted release schedule. I don’t know what’s been going on inside your company, but the fact that you’ve taken this long highlights the fact that your company has some serious managerial issues in getting games released in a timely manner. The longer you take to release something, the more you expose yourself to changes in the political environment–Your company has done little if nothing to improve this issue.
You’ve already shown that you’re willing to change content due to political developments. What’s going on with other titles that have been on the backburner, like Sumaga, Shiny Days, or LWIII? Are you going to announce that you’re going to censor them later on? It’s nice that you’re taking the time to ensure the best quality localization possible, but I have my limits, especially when it increases the risk of censorship like this happening–There is no reason for me to believe that you’re somehow incapable of achieving a compromise between releasing a quality localization and a timely one.
Unless you are willing to give direct support to these “various fan groups” by giving them the tools they need to release such a theoretical patch after the game’s release and put up a download link to it directly on the game’s sale page, your attempt to reassure disappointed fans is half-assed at best, and apathetic at worst. You said yourself that most fans will agree that the content is outside their comfort zones–Under this assumption, how many “fan groups” would be willing to tackle it in the first place?
There is no certainty that such a patch will come out, and you know it.
I swear, man.
In short: they wanted to casualise it for imaginary wider audience. I’m sure MoeNovel swims in dough from them.
Come on now, that’s not fair. Peter has said multiple times that the issue is that he doesn’t want his customers to go to jail. He also doesn’t want to go to jail himself. And some research will bear out that he essentially correct to be afraid of these things. Doing something because of fear of arrest isn’t voluntary.
This is totally different from MoeNovel, who took a game that featured a storyline that depends on the sex - and then decided to censor it to the point it was okay for the 15+ market. Like how Tokyopop censored Initial D - they thought it would sell more aimed at a different demographic, so they voluntarily censored it.
It’s the same company at the top. Same policy. I actually think JAST itself wouldn’t care much.
I guess Outlast devs are all in jail now, I mean, any kid with CC can buy a game on steam where you have dudes balls cut with table saw (genitals are not even censored there), even if Starless scene is even more brutal, it could be put in with original mosaic.
Scat is kinda common fetish, it might be restricted somewhere of course, but not to extent that anyone who takes a shit goes to jail. I also would like to laugh pretty hard if someone would made “sensational” news out of this. I just imagine some male activists crying about how “woman shat on him in a game” xD.
Drawn bestiality is kinda iffy, but I won’t say anything about it, since I don’t know exact laws about it. Its the only one I would kinda agree on because of that.
See the problem here is that the distribution content are made in such way that they are physical copies. These copies will be delivered internationally and for that a company which will shipped such contents outside must be held responsible for any materials that are deemed illegal, according to their domestic laws. I mean this could have been easily avoided if JastUSA decided to release only digital copies, like MangaGamers do, when it comes to extreme or very hardcore contents and let the buyers be held responsible for their own actions. That way, the whole charade of releasing this game cut and clipping lot of the CGs would have been avoided. I believe JastUSA should still have that options where they let the uncut version be distributed digitally (purchase and download, like DLsite) and still release the cut version as physical copies to everyone else. With the digital copy, you can have all kinds of disclaimer and such posted on the website, so that the buyers be aware. This is one of the reason lot of ESRB matured rating games are distributed by sites like Steam and Gamestops, where kids with cc can just go ahead and purchase it, even if they aren’t allowed and they are the only people who will be held responsible for their own actions. Hell, Call of Duty is rated M but only people I see online playing it are 7-10 year old kids, even with their parents next to them who are playing it. So yeah…the distribution is where it counts. JastUSA knows that and I am sure they don’t want to get sued up the wazoo by all the Bible-thumper from different countries (I am looking at you Australia), if all hell breaks lose.
I totally understand their decision, but they should have also considered the legion of fans who have waited for this game for more than 3 years and who follow Sei’s work religiously. With keen marketing skills, JastUSA could have made everyone happy by considering alternate methods of delivering the uncut product to the fans. I hope it comes to that, when they think of a patch. If not, at least consider releasing a digital copy for the fans to download, with disclaimer, of course.
Are you sure about that? My understanding was that as long as the goods are legal in the origin country, it is the legal responsibility of the importer to make sure that the goods are legal to import into their country. Bear in mind that the transaction has already taken place, and the game is already the property of the importer by the time it’s processed by customs.
That’s a very thorny question that could only really be answered by an expert on international law (i.e. a lawyer). The answer probably differs country to country. I expect in many parts of the world the answer is no, that is incorrect, and the distributor can theoretically also be held liable. The problem is that nobody is going to bother trying because you have to spend enormous amounts of money just to try, and you’re almost certainly doomed to fail.
However police in the US can and do use sting operations like this one - a cop ordered the book, halfway across the country from the dude. When the order was filled, they arrested the guy and had him hauled to Florida. (The charges were later dropped. In this case. In other cases, people like this guy were convicted and went to jail.) See, the rules say ‘prevailing community standards’, which means local standards. And that means any prosecutor anywhere in the country who thinks a jury in his district will probably think your game is obscene can have a local cop buy a copy of the game, and then arrest you for selling it to him.
As for scat, this guy got 4 years for 5 counts. Note that one of the convictions was for scat. Also in the first link, notice how he was busted by a special unit set up to focus on federal obscenity prosecutions by President Bush (a Republican) - which was “later disbanded” (i.e. by a Democrat, who typically cares less).
Basically Peter is right; scat and bestiality are more or less no-go areas. Even if you don’t get in trouble now, years later a change in administrations could emphasise porn-busting (cause it appeals to certain voting blocks) and They could decide to nail you. And unless you want to spend vast sums of money to try to get up to the Supreme Court to revisit obscenity, with no guarantee of success (using money Jast doesn’t have), you’re probably going to lose once the jury sees the game (and the prosecutor will make them see it played). And really, even if Jast USA ultimately won, they’d probably still be out of business because their VN partners in Japan would likely pull out overnight.
Will you be releasing uncensored cgs of the cut content to fan groups or are we gonna have a mix match when someone does make a patch?
Also from your tone it sounds like Romanesque might have been censored too.
He explicitly addressed that concern.