Official Post about Starless: Nymphomaniacs' Paradise

JAST Games Game Discussions
#21

@Dark_Shiki

That's Peter's opinion. Luckily our staff's personal fetishes are not factored into decisions of which games to work on and localize (but it does affect which games we play in our spare time).


@HyugaX

I'm happy you've taken the time to write so much, but you're wrong. For JAST USA, content is never about sales – that's not who we are. Discussions about content are mostly focused on trying to get more from the developer, such as uncensored images which are illegal in Japan. We only discuss cutting content when there are foreseeable legal issues and/or special considerations from the Japanese developer.

#22

When Will asked us to do the game (which was partially for financial reasons), we told them no, since we knew we'd have to do something about the most extreme parts of the game. We know people hate it when changes are made to a game. We literally walked away from the title, but they kept asking, suggesting that we release it under a different name (the title of our version is slightly different). We reluctantly agreed because we love Sei Shoujo. Remember that we tried to publish Cleavage a decade earlier, but the company had gone and thrown away the uncensored art, so we'd have to have released it censored or not at all. The bits of content we're removing is stuff Will asked us to remove at the start.


My main concern is that we ship these games through the mail, which means to the UK and Australia and inside the U.S. Considering that this title is way more extreme fetish-wise than titles released before, it seems that the version we sell and ship needs to be something that won't cause problems for our customers, for us, and (really) for visual novels at large, just when they're starting to get some serious attention. None of us would want that.


So don't worry. Fans who want all the content will get it, and our official version will be somewhat like the anime, which I assume more people are familiar with. None of the story itself will be changed or altered.

#23

Sounds kinda condescending and arrogant that Empress begged you to license the title considering other titles you have licensed before and that you don't really care for the Starless VN, yet have stated you'd like to bring more of their work over.


Why wasn't these issues mentioned on old forum thread on Starless, started over three years ago.

At least then we would have more of a understanding of the situation and condition your were thinking about licencing it under. You told us a long time ago why Cleavage fell through because of the lack of uncensored CG, yet your doing the opposite with Starless.


I understand the issue with real bestiality, but in the UK we have a serious issue with cartoon Loli content http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_s...United_Kingdom

I believe you still ship games here that have said content and have other games with such content readily available, yet you state you are protecting your foreign customers, let alone games like Enzai/Absolute Obedience.


The argument of for visual novels image at large and protection of customers?

What about these games? I'm sure owners of the games such as Water Closet(Scat)/Tsuki(Rape)/Virgin Roster(Rape)/Slave Pagent(Sexual Slavery)/Hitomi(Incest)/Sagara Family(Incest)/Saya No Uta(Gore)/ Kana(Loli)/ Catgirl Alliance (Loli)/Gibo(Incest)/Absolute Obedience(Rape/Shota)/ Enzai (Rape/Torture) needed your protection too, and so did the image of visual novels at large since they also contain potential offensive content that damages the perception of people who wouldn't buy a adult orientated VN.


Is it possible to make a poll on the forum thread to see how people feel like we did on the MG forum.

http://forums.mangagamer.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=495

Criteria would be:

1.Yes, I like the cuts.
2.Yes, but I don't like the cuts.
3.Maybe, if they release a patch.
4.No, because of the cut content.
5.No, don't care for this game.

How much of the JASTUSA sales goes back to Empress?


In the future if you choose to localize other Empress games such has Lewdness or DominancE would you also be making cuts to that content?


At the end of the day you have the game license and there isn't much we can do on the matter other then discuss our different opinions and views and criticize any hypocrisy regarding this.

#24

So don't worry. Fans who want all the content will get it,



I hope this is true. because I will wait for the restoration patch to come out before buying this.

#25

@ Nicholas Graham


I'm happy you've taken the time to write so much, but you're wrong.


And I'm happy that although you decided to disregard my first post you decided to take the time to address my second one.


For JAST USA, content is never about sales – that's not who we are.


I agree with you on that in the context of previous releases but not this current title. Reading some of the quotes made by Peter on the subject lead me to believe that the primary reason for the cuts (excluding the bestiality one) are based on sales:


"Though as a guy who stands at conventions and tries to explain to normal fans that no, these aren't DVDs, they're really a cool kind of game experience from Japan, I am pretty sure that the game without those themes will be easier to sell."


"I do think that a scat-less Starless will appeal to more people, actually, since if you ask 100 people off the street if they'd like to play a game like this 98 would say no."


"Really, this is the "best" way to go, since a lot of people would like to play the game but would not like to see that level of fetish."


Lots of companies cut content to make their products marketable to a larger audience, and while JAST usually refrains from doing this it appears to me that it was done in this case as a) the game would already have to be cut (what's a few more cuts), and b) the game features amazing artwork by a renown artist. I may be wrong but this makes the most sense to me. The case JAST is making doesn't make any sense compared to your past and current business practices and those of your competitors (see my first post and the one by Murderous Int).


I'll continue to support all your other games but I won't buy this title unless there's an official or unofficial uncensored restoration patch.

#26

"... My main concern is that we ship these games through the mail, which means to the UK and Australia and inside the U.S. Considering that this title is way more extreme fetish-wise than titles released before, it seems that the version we sell and ship needs to be something that won't cause problems for our customers, for us, and (really) for visual novels at large, just when they're starting to get some serious attention. None of us would want that."


This is one of the reason why this game should have been only downloadable via online authentication instead of selling it as a package contents.† This form of distribution has always caused problems because of the reasons you have mentioned that deals with intricate and perplexing international laws.† However, because the marketing on shipping internationally has already taken effect (I assume), I believe there should have been another version of it, immediately accessible to those who want the original contents as a downloadable form on the day the game is officially released.† This may steer away the complications you speak of by providing two version of this game, thereby making the whole lot of people very happy all at once.† The two version obviously should have been a cut and the other one is uncut.† The uncut is strictly available through your server, which requires authentication and some legal agreements before purchasing and of course, the cut version is just your generic vanilla that you guys have already planned to release as a package.† Such decisions, in my wholehearted honest opinion, could bring peace of mind to everyone else, especially those who have been a devoted fan of Sei's art and those who enjoyed Starless original and anticipated for years to get the uncensored version of it from JastUSA.† Other company, like MangaGamers, has been doing it for years and I believe they are located in America, too.†


"...So don't worry. Fans who want all the content will get it, and our official version will be somewhat like the anime, which I assume more people are familiar with. None of the story itself will be changed or altered."


If your version of the game will be like the animated series, then that is the saddest thing one can hope for, especially of the contents that needed to strip down from the game to bring it to that level.†† I mean the animation was pure trash and had nothing to do with the original story of the Starless the game.† I am not only saying that the animation was bad because of the contents and the vanilla nature of it, but because it was like day and night in comparison.† I mean if Starless the game was like the movie Texas Chainsaw Massacre, then the animation was like the Disney version of it, where the Leatherface has tea and crumpet with his victims instead of chopping them off...if that analogy makes any sense! haha †


Nonetheless, a clever marketing tactics and some plannings, I hope you guys can bring some good ending to this "complication" because, after all, altering contents of original intent of the artistic depiction is the ultimate form of censoring, regardless of how they are depicted.† If the original meaning is lost in the process to suit everyone's taste, then the game actually is better off in its native and mosaic form than the non-mosaic yet censored form of it.

#27

While I'm not fond of censorship, I should point out that a VN in "native and mosaic" form is no use to someone who can't understand a word of it. No matter how bad the English version might be, it's better than no English version at all (considering the chances of Starless ever getting released in English by an entity other than JAST were basically 0).

#28

Dark_Shiki:


"While I'm not fond of censorship, I should point out that a VN in "native and mosaic" form is no use to someone who can't understand a word of it. No matter how bad the English version might be, it's better than no English version at all (considering the chances of Starless ever getting released in English by an entity other than JAST were basically 0)."


I am not sure I can agree with you on that because majority of those who played this game four years ago when it was first released used machine translation that spewed out with at least 85% of accuracy (with good settings), which is more than enough to understand what is going on with the story.† One of the main reason some of these fans want to play this game today would be purely for the uncensored CG.† But according to JastUSA, you will have another groups of audience suddenly emerged from thin air, who has never heard of Starless before or even if they did, they are not aware of the extreme contents of the game, which is where JastUSA will make sure that it remains this way.† The crowd who has never heard of the Starless before wouldn't give a five cents about this game release anyway, if it wasn't localized, but to the original fans of Starless, being uncensored and English translated would be equally important, more so toward the uncensored part.†

Anyway, I am just saying that I am ever so grateful for JastUSA to take in the project to license and localize it, but instead of poorly releasing a product because of skewed marketing strategy, why not choose the smart way and release the game that will satisfy on all accord?† That's all!

For instance, and to reiterate my examples from earlier replies, is that it could have been a limited edition where uncut is released, or day one release but only for limited time, or better yet release the uncut in DRM form, so that only authorized people can access that version of the game.† There are so many ways...A good example would be how Steam distribute their games via online, which are DRM based.† Underage kids buy Mature rated games but they must consent on the agreement that is laid out by Steam.† Games that show decapitation, mutilation, and many other bodily harmed passed by easily and played by underage kids all too often because of the policies these companies made that often time hold the users responsible for their actions.†

Same exact thing from DLsite or DMM.jp.co downloads. DLsite English has fetish sections that contain nothing but scat and bestiality.† So yeah...you agree the terms and if you are underage, you are only responsible for the actions.† I know the laws are very twisted and complicated but I am just stating here that with little strategic planning, lot of things could have been avoided.†† ††

†

By the way, MangaGamer would have picked this up eventually, if JastUSA didn't.† Only reason JastUSA did and I quote Peter, "We literally walked away from the title, but [Will] kept asking, suggesting that we release it under a different name..."

#29

As you can tell by the slight differences in our replies, Peter and I focus on two different areas for JAST USA.


In the end, this is a legal issue. JAST USA is bound by US laws and regulations, and while we're doing our best, I hope you understand there are some things we can't do without putting ourselves and our customers at risk (1) (2). This isn't limited to physical packages, as it might have sounded by Peter's post. It also applies to digital distribution of such materials (3). Because we're a US business entity, we can not officially create, host or distribute a patch that contains the cut content of game. That's a task for 3rd parties to undertake.

#30

My only problem with this is that those who do like that stuff are being burned, and that the restoration patches will be unable to feature uncensored CGs as a result.

I will very likely purchase it when a fan restoration patch becomes available, but I also think that your fans are as afraid or need protecting from the government as you think, although it’s good that you feel that way instead of it being about morals or ethics.

#31

Er, that should say “not as afraid”. Would love an edit button.

#32

If you think releasing Starless in full wouldn't cause severe legal drama and serious repercussions for JAST USA, you are very disconnected from reality. The laws and social norms of Japan are completely different from the rest of the world. Laws regarding sexuality are very strict in some places. Go to any muslim countries, or African countries, and you'll find understanding for homosexuality, or any other sexual orientation or fetish for that matter, very thin. Social taboos are not questioned there; they are passed into laws. People get executed for "sexual deviancy" in more than one place on this planet.


For example; did you know lolicon gets you jailed and registered as a sex offender in some places? In my country, lolicon is legal to own, purchase and produce, but did that stop Tumblr from terminating my account? Did it help that I asked them to help remove my infringing material, in return for getting my blog back? No.


You need to understand one thing: Laws are meaningless. They protect you only as long as those with power don't notice you. How do you think the drug trade, or human trafficking work? You fly under the radar, play it safe, rebuild everything after the cops bust your supply chain.


Laws are "applied" to you when you make yourself their enemy. It doesn't matter whether you technically didn't break them. When the system considers you its enemy, it will fuck you.


I've done some work removing censorship bleeps from hentai artwork. It's not that hard. Vaginas especially are quite easy to reconstruct, pixelated penises are a little harder, but even free programs like Gimp can do amazing things in steady hands. I'll gladly participate in the fan patches, if nobody else will do it. I want that scene with the pregnant horse sex. :3

#33

The trouble with US obscenity law is that it's needlessly vague and defined after the fact. It completely violates the spirit of law: that laws should be circumscribed and you know exactly what is legal and what isn't. JAST is responding the way it is because US law is so vague; they're playing it safe to make sure they don't fall in a grey zone that could be turned against them somewhere down the line.


Obscenity law really shouldn't even exist. A separate legal category was created for depiction of sexual acts because the court decided that freedom of speech shouldn't apply for some reason. Moral crusading is such a fundamental part of our culture that the rules have been bent to give it an outlet. It's sad but it's rooted in our culture and therefore not easily dismissed with rational argument.

#34

OtakuApologist, if you do that, you are doing god’s work. I actually don’t know how hard it is to decensor an image.

#35

@Zah: It’s not hard really. I use Gimp, which is a free software. Combined with Paint, you can do all the simple stuff with relative ease. Some comics only have “white tape” on the genitals, which is incredibly easy to paint over with the right color. Pixelated vaginas often need to be fully re-imagined, but honestly, the surface design of a vagina is very simple. Penises are the real skill check, because they got veins, a very unique shape, foreskin, random hairs… there’s just a lot going on.

If you’re interested in my little crusade, you can check my Tumblr. I post daily screenshots of the visual novels I play, reviews of hentai&eroge, uncensored manga, original stories, etc.

I’m actually studying marketing right now, picking up ideas from my school books for how to best market visual novels. It’s… not very easy, I can tell you that. ;-p

#36

The cliche "sex sales" doesn't hold up so much in the real world.

#37

Although it is possible to work on a fan made patch, one has to realize the amount of work that needed to complete the restoration of all CG, which is about 120 of them (rough estimation according to Peter's description above because if scat and other "unappealing" stuff are cut from the game, that is about 5% of CGs). Not to mention the changes of dialogues that JastUSA surely made in the game but not telling us about it, editing scenarios, inserting the image to the appropriate point in time of the story, and many, many more (I am sure of it). So, to restore all of these contents to have the game 100% complete will require direct or some indirect help from JastUSA; otherwise, the idea of a patch will simply stay as such...an idea! And of course the sheer time consuming of creating restoration patch may not be tackled by everyone. If only two or three people work on the patch, it could take more than a year to complete (even more). JastUSA has to come to our aide to help make this patch to stay true to the fan and to their words or else they will lose lot of the faithful customers that are still with them, even though there are better alternate to JastUSA.

#38

I think you guys will be happy in this regard. We obviously know having the full game experience available is important to serious H-gamers and Sei Shoujo fans. We aren't comfortable with having all game content in our official shipping version, but we'll make there's a way for fans to get this content. It can't be "official" for the same reasons we're not putting the content in our shipping version, but fans will be able to get the content without much problem. We won't forsake our fans.


We knew all this drama was going to come when we started the project, as I've indicated. Hopefully fans will support us so we can consider future Empress releases, since we love Sei Shoujo, like everyone else here. If the content we're removing in our version causes enough fans to boycott the game, we'll be bummed, and will have to stick to more "risk-free" games in the future (games in which nothing needs to be edited, like 98.5% of the games we publish).

#39

Do you have some sort of timeframe for the *unofficial* restoration patch? Will it be same day?.

Some of these unoffical patches take months for groups to do. I probably won't buy this game until the patch related and if this is the wave of the future I'll have reevaluate purchasing JAST games. Imo, everything should be as the creator intended day one of release.



#40

We aren’t comfortable with having all game content in our official shipping version, but we’ll make there’s a way for fans to get this content.

†

"Oh, we accidentally left all the pictures in the release.† How silly of us."


In all seriousness, thank you guys for taking this seriously.† I am not boycotting it, but I am not pre-ordering either (but I don’t pre-order any games anymore anyway, so don’t take that personally).† I just want to wait for the “full” experience (even if the experience has some things I find distasteful).