Oh boy this really is a "smorgasbord". Thank you Empress / JASTUSA! I hope the sales go well and ushers in moar Empress games! Just seeing Sei Shoujo's work makes me wanna play Bible Black and Discipline again.
When I first saw this VN, I was really bummed out that I wouldn't be able to understand it...but...Eroge finds a way!! (^_^)
I watched the movie Fury a couple weeks ago and felt this quote went well.Can't wait for my artbook to arrive, looking forward to it!
@Murderious Int/Dogma: Ahhh, I tried so hard to not give away massive spoilers in detail to people who wanted to know how bad the game is, its true the dialogue is often more disturbing than the images themselves (except sachie. she got a raw deal on both ends. Btw, side note, I find it immensely amusing that the money to her is always well worth spending, at least if you want avoid entire heart ache)
To be honest, as vile as those scenes were I think the NTR bugged me the most. I dunno why, but that particular theme is worse than all the beast/scat/dismemberment stuff. I literally had to take a 9 hour break and go read hours of vanilla and happy comedies after the MC "won" that auction.
@Peter Thank you so much for addressing the issues, will that include the typos and such as well? You all did a great job, not gonna lie was really put off at first from the reputation Jast has and hearing game was gonna be cut but well...alls well end's well, I think I'll be continuing to support you guys now, although if those typos would get fixed that would help a lot. Its really really distracting, if it was like two or three after hours of play, thats one thing, but theres well over a dozen before you even move on to day 2, and the amount of times Marika and Marisa get switched up and mixed is just...sad.
Wow, lots of angst and toxicity flying around in this thread. I should probably address an issue here.
Many years ago, back in the golden age of publication, readers could expect books to be published with nary a typo in sight. These pristine works, these works worthy of admiration and worship, glistened and shimmered in space with all the splendor of great shiny things in a world which was... not at all splendorous. But these glorious days would not last, for the Fall was approaching, and it would hit without warning and with all the force of an angry humvee driver.
Sorry about that, I'm in a whimsical mood. In more mundane speak, Publishing Houses used to employ a battalion of copy-editors to make sure works were released almost perfect. And when I say "battalion" I really mean "army." They also didn't publish as many books. This has all changed though, Publishers have sacked copy-editors en masse (you have no idea how many editors have lost their jobs,) which means the amount of time spent on editing has declined, which is why writers need to submit books closer to final publication, which has in turn seen a big increase in the freelance editing market.
Which has, also in turn, seen an increase in errors in published books. These errors are usually in the form of typos, because if they're minor then they are generally considered not really important. Generally speaking, because the amount of time spent editing books has decreased, sometimes the minor things tend to be only roughly addressed. Editors tend to have much more important duties than poring over scripts searching for typos, they do this job last. One writer was told by the publisher that they couldn't buy a book which needed 40 hours of editing, so it's become a man-power and commercial issue.
This is a huge shame. Great books were made even better by great editors, who invariably knew how to write themselves. In fact Thomas Wolfe's last two novels, considered great works, were largely rewritten by his editor after he died. Largely because what Wolfe had submitted was a mess.
So where am I going with this? Well, if the giant Publishers in the book market are no longer capable of eliminating all the spelling and grammar errors from their works, generally because they've had to cut their editing staff to the bone in their hunt to stay commercially viable, then it's a little unreasonable to expect Mr. 2-man-operation-Payne to eliminate all spelling errors from all his works. By all means point these errors out, but I don't agree that spelling errors makes JAST unprofessional. Catching typos is the last job of an editor, and if the staff were already taxed then I can understand if they were a little shonky with it. Unless the typos and grammar mistakes happen fairly often and are of a serious nature (I haven't played the game.) Mangagamer seems to employ more people (like beta-testers) than JAST does, just my little assumption, and if that's the case I suppose more typos will be the result.
Yes I know, I'm the same person who got into an argument on the MG forums over the editing quality in Princess Evangile, but I didn't get into an argument over spelling errors. I got into an argument over how the VN was written/translated, which is one of the more important duties of an editor. WELLLLLL, that's debatable, let's just say I expect spelling errors these days because I doubt companies will always have the man-power. It's disappointing and sloppy for sure, and I get sad about it also, but this is the world we're living in. Of a bigger issue would be if they wrote it in a way which was indecipherable, or they got themselves in a knot by using passive voice narration. That kind of stuff. I suppose typos are being increasingly seen as okay (depending on the frequency.) You'll also note that the typos are all of a nature which wouldn't be detected by a spell check (from what I've seen,) so maybe an over-reliance on technology there.
Anyway just a little update on the state of the industry. You'll regularly hear people bemoan the lack of editing time spent on books these days so, it's a fairly common industry issue.
But try not to get personal in arguments with each other :) .We all love VNs and all have our point of view. Hearty debates are healthy, but this sort of negativity is toxic.
Heh, looking forward to seeing Murderous' mighty log of errors :P
I'm not disagreeing with you, but as someone that worked in a publishing company, it does bother me. I actually submitted a ticket requesting permission to go in and edit myself so I can correct all this. we aren't talking 5-10 errors here, we are talking easily in the upper double or lower triple digits. I stopped counting after 20 rather early in the game. I am not saying that makes Jast unprofessional, nor did I intend it too, frankly its hard to get mad at a company that doesn't get support. I was actually trying to be supportive believe it or not. As a potential long term customer, I wanted to know if they would be addressed or fixed in the future. I only know jast through their reputation, which isn't all that great. But I bought asiela and yumina and was rather pleased with them, and starless turned out better than expected, so I see no reason to not keep supporting them. The proof reading is a pet peeve though, it will truly bother me. If its something I have to just deal with for a few months and it gets fixed later, okay, but if its something like 'just live with it" it does impact on whether I will buy a game or not. Something I have a big interest in like Starless, I'll buy regardless, but if there is something I am on the fence about, I'll think about translation and these errors and that can sway the decision. Ergo I brought it up. No hostility involved. Again, if they actually give me permission and I can decompile the VN, I'd do the editing myself.
My post wasn't aimed at you specifically Sorreah :P. Someone mentioned a few pages back that it made JAST unprofessional and it was disrespectful to Starless, so I just thought I'd give some perspective on matters. Especially considering the argument descended into the realm of the personal.
It bothers the bejeezus out of me too, especially as I regard 'style' as critically important, but I suppose what we're seeing is the realities of business models these days? Maybe it's also got to do with the idea that mistakes can be patched. Modern games are being released far from perfect because the developers can rely on future patches to eradicate this stuff from the game. That's also not a welcome practice.
I definitely understand the pet peeve though. I ranted at MG on their forums because of a certain game and the way it was edited. In my defence though, it was because I was having to decipher some of their lines piecemeal :P
@rooke
As a published writer. So sad and true.
Even editing myself, there is only so much you can do, even if you pick through thousands and thousands of lines with a fine tooth comb, you are going to miss shit.
But people should stop bitching, for the 3 of us who actually bought this game and didn’t get it from a fucking torrent before coming here to bitch, they are at least working on it. No game comes out perfect, JAST is making a patch to fix errors. Good on them.
That should be enough. People are bitching like Peter came in here, flipped everyone the bird and then started dropping his nuts in people’s mother’s mouths before running away into the sunset carrying a massive canvas sack of money.
They are working on it. Good on them.
For you torrent fuckers (and I am not above the law, I torrent shit all the time) BUY THIS FUCKING GAME. One day when our grandchildren are getting sucked off by kawaii shoujo sex droids, they can come into our study after and hug us and say ‘Thank you grandpa for making this possible.’
The market is only going to grow if we throw money at shit like Starless. I think people fail to see what a big deal this release was, on multiple levels.
^Speaks true. This needs support, because its the only way we will get more releases like this. Hell, I want eroge to really grow here in the west. So many great games we are never gonna see and will never get translated, its so sad. At least with support here, its a step in the right direction. This title is especially important in my opinion because it basically covers several massive hurdles in the industry. Besides, were making our desires known, but honestly the only real way to judge if its worth it is by the numbers. No sales=failure from a business stand point. I was upset as anyone at first about content cut, but it worked out fine. If anything, I kinda wish there was some other way for it to be done, because frankly, I feel the whole idea of people getting upset and hung up over the legality of works of fiction to be crazy. Yeah, there are laws, but none of this exists. May as well lock up any author that wrote a passage about a 12 year old having sex with someone over the age of 18. Its not like it doesn't exist, there are no real people involved. It's a work of fiction. Is it disturbing? sure, but thats what art does. It challenges people to all sorts of emotions, not just rainbows and sunshine. If we want to see progress, then more titles like this need support. I get that not all countries are forgiving or fair in this regard, that said, nothing can change without taking a step.
so someone who probably knows more then me how much games have EMPRESS come out with so far that are waiting to come over here? I just saw one called DominancE that looks pretty good anything else? this one almost took a decade to come here so i assume these ones will take years as well?
@RookeUnless you too have played the game and looked and the silly amountof mistakes, why are you commenting on this issue? But it's okay....I mean it is just Starless who cares? I'm not gonna play it, letalone pay for it, I only care that JAST didn't do a good job and thisis X reason why that is okay.
BeforeJAST gave a response I wanted people to help log the issue and JASTto confront it. but Shiki wanted me to prove shit to him in hisspecific criteria and prove myself to him after I criticized him forsaying that they aren't minor, and that it's okay to justify it thecase of MG but not JAST.
Peoplehad already been doing that and we don't need his attempt to coverfor JAST when he hasn't played the game or likely will do.
I played it and can see that it is of a bad standard, even compared to most other VN, JAST have released. If you look, my first post on QC issues on Starless, it was me who brought up the zoom issue. JAST have addressed the issues we raised. I thank them. The volume is silly, and do they think it's worth us posting 10 pages, will they address it or will they let us sort it out? Or make it more easier by giving us the script if they are so over burdened to do it themselves for a product they are charging for and representing. The only method we have on this forum is to post photos which is redundant method at best. JAST wouldn't have had this issue if the typos weren't so stupid in the first place.
Ifyou notice Shiki behavior about this is Idon't care for Starless,but for some reason I care about the fact your raising a issue aboutQC and the typos are just a minor problem. Unless you prove it "me" under my specific rule set, someone who doesn't care about this game? but does? If to him so called "minor" edits are concerned.
Did I comment on the MG thread your ranting about, no. But I wouldn't down play their concern all the same and tell them they are wasting time. Your post is off point, you should BUY THE GAME first and play it before coming in with a list of reason on why I justify Shiki 101 who also didn't BUY THE GAME. :P
myinon007already pointed out plenty of stuff within the first few hours ofgameplay and even more, other people have PM me that these errors aresilly, before I went in to JAST about the standard.
But notice it isn't about wanting this product to fail, the reason is I want it to do well and have thanked them where need, for actually releasing something four years in the pipeline. Also addressing the concern, when we even offered to work for free to sort it out if they can help make it easier.
Youcan see other people brought up the issue, not just myself on this thread and the new bug/typo thread.
https://connect.jastusa.com/support/discussions/topics/5000049032
PerhapsRooke if you ask people who paid and played the game(unlikeyourself), you could bring something constructive towards the issue? Rather then a justification of the errors, because publisher do it all the time, so it is okay.
I'm also promoting the game because of my love of Sei's work but JAST make it harder for people to represent them when they are offering something which isn't up to the standard of other stuff they have released. I give credit where it is due and want JAST to do well but I won't cover for a blatant balls up on the QC compared to other stuff they released, i want them to improve on it, or help us improve on it to help improve the product for sale. But I have pointed out the fact that they kept to the translation intention, my happiness of them bring the product and so forth.
I wonder if JAST will skimp on Shiny Days QC and if it will be riddled with silly mistakes, but some how I doubt that, but you never know. :P Coming soon "tiny days"
@Sorreah
I brought the game twice from JAST, I want it to do so well. And concur anyone who is buying the game and supporting this gem.
@MSG
I covered it in a Sei specific thread. Before the release.
https://connect.jastusa.com/support/discussions/topics/5000047837
I made this so people who brought the game could learn more about other works from Empress.
I would recommend http://myfigurecollection.net/club/1328 too RockGodItachi. fellow Sei fan club creator.
I also working on a wikia but would like help on it too.
http://sei-shoujo.wikia.com/wiki/Sei_Shoujo_Wikia
The game that Empress released after Starless, Lewdness:
Though personally I prefer DominancE to Lewdness.
so will these come out soon or is it solely based on how well starless sells?
I hope they will.
But Peter would need to reply on this himself.
He did say "with enough support we'll be able to bring more awesome Sei Shoujo titles to international fans."
Which means it will be about sales.
JAST have upped the amount of games they released this year, so hopefully four years in the localization for the next game shouldn't be a problem from now on.
yeah, i like DominancE more than Lewdness.
and Starless is the best :)
@Murderous Int: Ok, I was prepared to drop the subject, but your hypocrisy has reached levels that surpass mere irritation.
Shiki, Shiki, Shiki, Shiki. Why is it that this has become a vendetta against me? If you have a problem with me, just say it. Don't hide behind a simple disagreement over acceptable standards of editing. And don't act like I've somehow slighted you. I suggested that making a big deal about typos in a title most everyone seems to be enjoying thoroughly was being a bit of a spoil sport. When pressed about it, I asked for evidence that the problem was as bad as you claim--evidence that would've taken you all of 5min to produce, much less than the time you've spent bickering with me unproductively in this thread. At no point did I tell you to take your complaints elsewhere. I took your personal attacks like an adult til now because honestly I didn't think it was worth derailing this thread just to bicker with you. But now I see you're SIMPLY NOT GOING TO LET IT GO until I confront you and we have this out. Sorry JAST, but this is your fault for not having proper moderation in place. Sorry Starless fans, but I'm not just going to stand by while Murderous Int keeps slandering me unchecked. This argument is completely, 100% his fault.
"Unless you too have played the game and looked and the silly amount of mistakes, why are you commenting on this issue? But it's okay.... I mean it is just Starless who cares?"
What does this have to do with what Rooke said? You're just taking another shot at me. Starless is a high-profile title that deserves the same amount of attention as any other high-profile game. BUT as a nukige the focus of that attention should be different. The image problem was a more pressing issue for a nukige. For a story-focused title, maybe the typos would be the more pressing issue that should be fixed first. It all comes down to what customers care about the most. For story-focused titles, I'd gladly sacrifice demosaicing to get something else I want. Would you say the same about nukige?
"Before JAST gave a response I wanted people to help log the issue and JAST to confront it. but Shiki wanted me to prove shit to him in his specific criteria and prove myself to him after I criticized him for saying that they aren't minor, and that it's okay to justify it the case of MG but not JAST."
Bla, bla, bla, Shiki. Can't you argue without insulting other people while doing so? No, that would require you to grow up.
As I already stated, I asked for you to justify your claims to convince people who haven't played this game that they should care. People like me. People like Rooke. You think I'm going to slap $40 down just to validate your whining as a real quality control concern that JAST should be taken to task for? I don't care about Starless. But I do care about Shiny Days. And actually, I care about Raidy 3, which is a nukige. I'd prefer both titles not be ridden with typos. But you can't get me (or others like me) to care unless you actually prove to me (and others) that this is an issue. You'll have to wait until we play those other titles and start complaining. Why not convince us NOW, while the game YOU care about is in the limelight? Or would you prefer to wait til Shiny Days comes out, it's ridden with errors, and I write an article condemning JAST for it? Then you could complain about me playing favorites, right? Because bitching about me is more important than the actual issue at hand?
"it's okay to justify it the case of MG but not JAST."
Not really. Different types of errors. And actually, you might notice that I was pretty dismissive of the issues Rooke had with Princess Evangile. A non-nukige, I might add. Sorry for being hypocritical again.
"If you look, my first post on QC issues on Starless, it was me who brought up the zoom issue. "
Congratulations, do you want a cookie? I already gave you your due, even though I was really aggravated with you. I think that shows who's the adult here.
"The volume is silly, and do they think it's worth us posting 10 pages, will they address it or will they let us sort it out?"
It was never worth you posting 10 pages of screenshots, and that was a pointless endeavor to begin with. There's two steps to achieving your goal to get these typo issues fixed.
1) Establish that a problem exists. You don't need 100 screenshots to do this. Probably less than 10, together with an estimate of frequency, would suffice.
2) Get JAST to fix it, or fix it yourself. Again, hundreds of screenshots don't really help. The game either gets an editing pass (by either JAST or fans), or it doesn't. No one in their right mind would use screenshots as a basis for fixing typos.
"Your post is off point, you should BUY THE GAME first and play it before coming in with a list of reason on why I justify Shiki 101 who also didn't BUY THE GAME. :P"
Did Rooke mention me once? I don't think he did. Did he take my side? I don't think he did. You're the one who keeps insisting this is all about me. Are you that infatuated with me that you hang on every word I say and redirect every argument to be about me? Grow up!
"If you notice Shiki behavior about this is"
...
"a list of reason on why I justify Shiki 101"
...
" but JAST make it harder for people to represent them when they are offering something which isn't up to the standard of other stuff they have released."
"I give credit where it is due and want JAST to do well but I won't cover for a blatant balls up on the QC compared to other stuff they released"
Weren't you complaining to me earlier that JAST's releases are inconsistent in their editing quality? Maybe I'm simply misremembering? Sorry, I was supposed to be the hypocrite, right?
"I wonder if JAST will skimp on Shiny Days QC and if it will be riddled with silly mistakes"
You finally appealed to an external audience that would help bolster the support for your cause. Congratulations!
", but some how I doubt that, but you never know."
And then you ruined it with an unfounded accusation of favoritism! Well, I had a split second of hope for a minute there.
It takes a special kind of insecurity to post the kind of nonsense you've demonstrated here. How about you grow up and we go back to discussing VNs like mature adults, hmm? My demeanor can be off-putting, but I find there's very few people I can't get along with. Even grgspunk and I have our moments of solidarity.
They still have a cleavage license I think right? I'm pretty sure they had it before they announced starless.
@Shiki I thought I was blacklisted? MR.TROLL?
Anyway, I like how this issue to you is the Shiki v.s M.I debate.
Rooke wasn't eluding to mine and yours discussion? My mistake?
Shiki what have you done about this issue personally nothing. Yet your sure like to comment on it like Rooke
JAST have had good release but they have also had bad releases, why have we had such concern with JAST. This is inconsistency? No. This for a recent game is very bad, at time where Peter himself said he values the importance of the medium and the future.
Why do I need to justify this to you. You can see it here clearly. Your attempt to derail the typo discussion was blatant about that they shouldn't address it because it is a lot of work, by actively discouraging posting about it. Work that would need to be taken away from possible other projects? NO
You have no interest in this title, yet you have a interest in me proving my point to you, then I'm stating your motives to your argument. My motives for you proving the point to me when you haven't got a darn clue about the game since you haven't made that assessment, like others.
Your downplaying the issue, to try put people off mentioning it by trying to make out that getting JAST to address it is a waste of time and us doing it is minor. It is a BIG issue by the volume and you can see people have stated that who played it. Some it bothers, others it doesn't But don't worry I can declare it is minor and silly to get JAST to address because I haven't played the game or check myself, but trust me on this one.
This was before JAST addressed the issue and I wanted to point out it isn't a small thing.
The point being BUY THE GAME :P Just check it out to see for yourself and can then take a more leveled criticism from you, basically asking you to prove your point that you state this is a minor issue. Much like you telling me to prove my point, when even doing so doesn't matter to you because it isn't about the game.
What you did was try to say that this isn't a issue we need to bring up by posting the volume, which I said I disagree with. To bring it JAST attention, which they probably already knew.
This isn't about you Shiki, this is about Starless.
I'm not slandering you, i'm just pointing out your BS.
I have also noted your points of it being a big task and of course it obvious I agree on certain points you raised which you see me talk about.
I care for Starless, you don't and like many here who have played the game, they have brought to the table their thoughts. What have you done? Got angry when I called you up on this.
I haven't got a personal problem with you Shiki, I don't know why you think I do.
I do get fed up though with the arrogance you show on this and others, when your not even bother to check to see if we are making over exaggerated claims.
You may attack me with insecurity accusations, but this isn't what this is about.
We have disagreed on this matter and it is clear to see a while back and when ever some one disagrees with Shiki look who turns up your boy Rooke, I wonder why? With my reply to him,
which is what is aimed at me personally to justify your previous argument.
This is a accusation of a personal attack against you? but look what I'm doing I'm promoting your game for you, but now I'm not because I disagree with M.I opinion of me, which matters so dearly to me that I won't contribute to this anymore. Who's the adult? Get real.
But wait I don't care....or do I?
I would insist you play this to check it out and actually bring something to the argument.
But I already know you made your mind up so won't.
We have clearly disagreed on this issue. I don't have a personal problem with you Shiki, but when it comes to Starless I'd say do your homework before coming on like the wise man, above it all your portraying yourself to be and bringing Rooke in to this to disguise your previous attempts of JAST not addressing the issue and fans who are bringing it up.
Most things we have had many debate here and on MG, no problem. You are a valid member of the community, just like any other. So I don't see what your problem with me is.
But we could also do something more constructive, no? like improve the game and JAST future releases not to fall in to such shoddy problems, hopefully.
We can endless discuss are differences here in the open or you can PM me about this on the MG forum if I truly bother you.
@Cloud Lockhart
Yeah Lewdness is more a maledom game, while DominancE is more femdom and like Starless.
@Tototo
They do have Cleavage, they just don't have the uncensored CG and decide not to bring it over because of this. It is also a much shorter game and the themes are a much lighter affair.
"Rooke wasn't eluding to mine and yours discussion?"
It's alluding, my misguided fan editor.
"Yet your sure like to comment on it like Rooke"
It's "you", not "your". Aren't you at least going to make this worth my time? I'm paying good time for this discussion, and you're not delivering.
Terrible editing. Your comments need an editing pass before release. Please try harder next time. I can barely understand you at points.
"Your downplaying the issue"
No? Didn't I already go over this? Sigh. Should I even bother if you're not actually going to listen?
"I'm stating your motives to your argument."
Like you know my motives. Ha. At least stick to something you can pretend to know something about. Let me state once more: assume everything you think you know about me, my thoughts, my beliefs is wrong. Because it mostly is. Starting from a blank slate, try asking me what I think on various topics. You might be surprised that I'm not the strawman you make me out to be!
" It is a BIG issue by the volume "
No. You're being sloppy (like usual). The volume of mistakes isn't the issue. The RATE is the issue. Please learn the difference. Look the words up in a dictionary. Thank you.
"This isn't about you Shiki, this is about Starless."
No, it's not. If it was about Starless, my name wouldn't come up every single time this issue comes up (even when other people post about it!). You're just waving your hands trying to excuse your juvenile behavior. Own up to your mistakes. Be an adult.
"I'm not slandering you, i'm just pointing out your BS."
No, you continually make me the focus of discussion and accuse me of perpetrating every wrong that has ever been committed against you. Next you'll say I was behind the crucifixion of Nukige Christ.
"I care for Starless, you don't and like many here who have played the game, they have brought to the table their thoughts. What have you done? Got angry when I called you up on this."
Why should I be obligated to promote a game I don't even care about? It seems to be a good game. I tell people to take a look at it if that's their thing (unlike my position on Hentai Industries titles).
"I haven't got a personal problem with you Shiki, I don't know why you think I do.
I do get fed up though with the arrogance you show on this and others"
I... don't even. You made two sentences back to back that directly contradict each other. I didn't even think that was possible. That's a feat of cognitive dissonance right there. Look that up by the way. I think it'll be instructive.
"You may attack me with insecurity accusations, but this isn't what this is about."
Um... yes it is? Why else would you continue to badger me about this topic over and over and over and over, even when I said I'm done discussing? You feel like you have something to prove. To who? I'm not sure. Starless fans? Me? Maybe even yourself?
"but look what I'm doing I'm promoting your game for you, but now I'm not because I disagree with M.I opinion of me, which matters so dearly to me that I won't contribute to is anymore. Who's the adult? Get real."
The lesson on not burning bridges is a basic life lesson that you apparently never learned.
"We have clearly disagreed on this issue."
That's the funny thing. We don't even really disagree. You just think you disagree, because you're completely unable to grasp my arguments or their motives. It's like you've plugged your ears and are just screaming "I can't hear you!"
"I don't have a personal problem with you Shiki, but when it comes to Starless I'd say do your homework before coming on like the wise man"
This isn't even about Starless anymore. It's about your stupid personal quest to make me look bad. If you would just shut up and stop hounding me, I would be happy to let you go about your fan editing project in peace.
"We can endless discuss are differences here in the open or you can PM me about this on the MG forum if I truly bother you."
Sure. But if you're convinced I'm an arrogant prick, why would anything I have to say to you in private make any difference? As I see it, the only way you'll stop at this point is if a 3rd party you respect steps up and says "Murderous Int, give it a rest man."
I say bring them all over because i really dig this guys art style, anything else on the horizon that is similar to starless coming around?