Overflow Localization Survey

Visual Novel Community Visual Novel Talk
#1

As originally posted here: http://novelnews.net/2010/08/01/a-patch … i-project/

Sekai Project, the fan group translating School Days, and the developer Overflow have been in talks regarding localization. As part of its attempt to get a feel for the market, Overflow has asked Sekai Project to survey visitors about their localization preferences as well as the legal circumstances of eroge in their country. This survey can be found here: http://www.sekaiproject.net/survey/

Note that the results of this survey may be circulated beyond Overflow. This is a good chance to let Overflow and other companies know a little bit more about the overseas market. Amidst a flood of C&D’s, Overflow has been one of the few Japanese developers to take a benevolent stance towards fan efforts at translation. The least we can do is respond to their survey.

#2

sigh I hate when surveys use ambiguous questions. For instance the question, “In relation to animation and games, what content is legally restricted in your country?” is kind of difficult. Do they just want to know things that are restricted, restricted and/or banned, or just banned? Also, it doesn’t state to whom the restriction applies. Do they mean everyone is restricted, or just children are restricted for instance?

#3

The meaning of the question should be pretty obvious given the intention of the survey. Perhaps a clearer explanation would be:

“If we sold a game in your country containing one or more of these elements, could we get into legal hot water over it and have to waste valuable money and time in court?”

Although, now that I think about it, asking questions about complex laws is not something that would normally be done via a public survey. As such, perhaps the survey is intended to determine what people’s perceptions are of their local laws.

#4

At least my sister is a lawyer, so I’m well informed about the laws in my country. Well, I’m thinking it’s not the laws and the answers in our survey that will end up discouraging Overflow, but the amount of answers. :frowning:

#5

The main problem si that every country is different.
For exemple where i live, their is no problem with loli character if it’s stated that they are older than 18.Guro is not a probleme too… etc… If the product is X-rated or have the apporpriate rating.

The only problem is that some “organisation” (generally Christian and other family value organisation) can object on some interpretation of the law and get a special type of case ruled by a special type of supreme court (Conseil d’Ètat : Council of state).

#6

Yeah, I gotta agree. I’m not sure if the Japanese companies have fully realized this, but people can be prone to blowing things out of proportion and inadvertently relying on misinformation or misinterpreted information. If they’re trying to research the legal/political environment of an overseas area as the survey suggests, wouldn’t the best course of action be to hire third-party legal experts in that area to do an objective and independent analysis?

Is there anything in School Days or Cross Days that’s causing Overflow to hesitate releasing official localizations of them?

#7

Rape? Homosexuality? Incest? Underage pregnancy? Kokoro? Oh, wait, this one is only in SummerDays… :roll:

#8

Either way, it’s a really strange idea to rely on an anonymous survey to research legal issues. Since all responses are anonymous, there’s no way to confirm that the users are actually in the countries they say they come from. Additionally, everyone’s allowed to participate regardless of background or education, so there’s no way to make sure whether responses to the legal status of such content are reliable, objective, and well-informed–Maybe they should put some questions regarding the user’s employment/education status?

I really don’t know about this. There are too many idiots out there who think they know everything about these sorts of things, regardless of their credentials. Considering how vague these things can be in the world of law, this sort of research is best done by consulting experienced and independent experts. I mean, if they’re that hesitant about the content, wouldn’t it be a more logical decision to do it that way?

#9

Maybe they’re as interested in the perception that people have regarding the legal status of eroge as much as the reality? If someone feels that purchasing a game from them could get them in trouble, then that’s obviously a lost customer, regardless of whether that person’s notion is right or wrong.

#10

Well obviously it isn’t worded that way–If it was, it should ask what you believe is restricted in your country, not what is. I mean yeah, that perception can make an impact to some extent, but it’s not like they can’t try to assure customers that their products won’t cause trouble or distribute their products in a way that’s perceived to be more secure and away from scrutiny, like MG’s download-only scheme (it even asks a question about whether the user prefers a game to be offered as a retail product, digital download, or either). Considering the whole Rapelay scandal and the wave of legal/political issues surrounding eroge, do you think their worries would just stop at just concerns about what’s “perceived” to be legal or not in other countries?

The eroge companies have expressed concerns about foreigners getting into legal troubles in their own home countries due to gaining access to their games, after all.

#11

Eroge CAN get you in trouble in some countries. England and Canada have rather draconian laws that have gone into effect recently. I think Australia is trending that way as well. Other lesser known countries (Singapore, Philippines) have some nasty laws on the subject too, if I recall correctly. And at least on paper, eroge have the potential to get you in trouble in the US, though thus far it hasn’t been prosecuted. It’s possible to argue that any eroge with some semblance of story would pass muster as not being obscene on merit grounds, but it’s not exactly been well tested. No one really wants to be the test case either.

#12

I don’t think laws have actually changed. It’s just that there was zero enforcement before, whereas we’re now seeing some action being taken. In Canada, cartoon porn depicting minors has been outlawed ever since real child porn was made illegal (mid-80s). The exception is if you draw it yourself for personal use (or can convince authorities that it’s artistic work).

Yeah, the sale and possession of porn is illegal in in those countries (although enforcement is lax). That includes eroge.

I find it laughable that some Singaporeans blame westerners for resisting eroge when their home countries are even less tolerant. There’s this perception that American attitudes are at fault when in fact most countries (including Japan’s East Asian neighbors) frown upon the same things.

#13

The difference is that Americans are loudmouths about it and seek to impose their attitudes on other cultures. You know, business as usual.

#14

Well yeah, I never denied the fact that you could get into trouble with countries that have clearly draconian laws when it comes to this sort of stuff–There’s no reason why Overflow or any other Japanese company interested in the international market shouldn’t already know about those kinds of countries, especially Canada. But when you’re talking about places like the America where information regarding the legality of certain content tends to be difficult to understand, don’t you think it’d be a better idea to consult legal experts who have experience in law rather than just ask anyone from there?

Like you said, Americans are loudmouths. When they shoot their mouths off, they also tend to make rash and misinformed (not to mention highly politically-charged) statements/assumptions that are often based more on what they feel rather than what they actually know. They yell, they scream, they freak out, they blow things out of proportion, and they’re also susceptible to believing everything they hear and say without question. That’s not something that’s limited to any particular side, either. It comes from people of all sides of the debate.

So what about the niche American anime/manga/game/VN community? They’re no exception. You really think it’s a good idea to make a business decision by asking a group of people who’re likely comprised of inexperienced idiots who likely don’t fully understand their own laws?

#15

Theoretically criminal law should be easily understood by the masses. How do people know what not to do otherwise? Though you’re probably right–in many countries the laws regarding fictional sexual material are so vague that even lawyers who don’t specialize in the area would likely be unable to give a satisfactory answer. In some cases there is no satisfactory answer–the laws exist and are either inconsistently enforced, or the laws are ill defined and haven’t been challenged in court enough to properly define them. In either case, any lawyer would tell you to err on the side of caution–there’s little advantage to pushing at the boundary line until you get slapped. Unless you’re a legal advocacy group, of course.

You’d think by now government agencies would’ve arisen that would proactively rate questionable materials as “legal” or “illegal” by now, particularly in the US. The question is: Would that be considered a step forward towards responsible enforcement, or a step backward towards systematic state-sponsored censorship? It would certainly bring the issue to a head rather quickly.

#16

True enough, anyone remember how some people reacted to D&D way back when? If not, well this should inform you:

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2010/08/01/mazes-monsters/

#17

D&D had the advantage that it was impossible for it to ever be branded as obscene, no matter how hard the religious blowhards tried (you had detailed mechanics for drug effects and demon summoning, but there were zero for having sex). They worked so hard to label D&D as Satanaic - which in their eyes was the greatest evil ever - but that didn’t matter, because Satanism is protected by the same rights as Christianity, Shinto, Voodoo, and the Jedi Arts. Plus D&D was obviously a form of literature: the Library of Congress registered each and every tome as inarguable proof.

The major ignition, was because TSR started marketing to kids… young kids I mean (hence the cartoon). Not that it matters, since RP’ing is actually a normal part of human maturity - girls playhouse and boys play war all the time - but parents were worried about their 8 year olds hanging out with stranger 16 year olds… or worst that unmarried 24 year old living in his parent’s garage, without them knowing about it. Ordinarily 8 years didn’t hang out with teens or adults like that, and they were feared as predators (sexually and socially). It was a community trust issue, more than the D&D is Satanic smoke cloud. Remember that during this time, video game arcades were also blacklisted as havens for drugs and gangs, because it was mostly ran by part-time teens (thus grew a market for “parent supervised arcades” like Chuck E Cheese and whatnot).

See Pokemon and Magic the Gathering for a more recent rekindling of this, “________ is Satanic and manipulating our kids.” By then though, parents didn’t care what their kids were doing, so long as it kept them out of their hairs and wasn’t something that was ticket straight to prison (also there’s nothing wrong with Pokemon or MtG - other than the cashcowing). Thus now parental supervision has degraded so far, you have 8 year olds playing games as violent as GTA and Call of Duty… which is a new problem worthy of its own thread.

#18

That’s what’s called prior restraint and is pretty much an automatic First Amendment violation - it’s assumed to be unconstitutional unless the government can prove that it’s absolutely necessary, and that it doesn’t censor more than it has to, and also that they didn’t forget to censor anything which relates to their reason. (That last one’s a bit odd – but if your “absolutely necessary” reason isn’t compelling enough that you feel comfortable leaving one kind of speech unaffected, then doesn’t that mean you have ulterior motives for the particular kind you want to ban?)

Prior restraint is a very very hard thing to get done. You cannot, for example, constitutionally bar white supremacists from disseminating their propaganda. Nor can you ban holocaust denier literature.

#19

Theoretically, it should be easily understood. But if it was really the case, I don’t think this survey would exist to begin with.

I’m not just saying it’s a bad idea to rely on anonymous surveys because relying misinformed opinions can get them into trouble due to underestimating the the law, it’s also because relying on misinformed opinions can cause them to overestimate the law. The reason why getting an expert opinion is so important is because you can get a better understanding of where the boundries lie without all the political/activist rhetoric. In America, obscenity laws may have a potential to pose a threat, but there’s also a chance that it may not be as of a threat as people make them out to be–You don’t know that for sure unless you get someone experienced and knowledgeable enough to make an informed opinion. Independence, neutrality, reliability, and objectivity are the key terms here.

I’ve seen plenty of Americans jump to conclusions and say ‘this or that is banned/illegal’ without actually taking a good look at the factors/circumstances surrounding these issues (I still can’t believe there are idiots who insist that Battle Royale is actually banned over there). Additionally, they often spread rumors, which may cause others to have misinformed opinions. Relying on such people is not good for making a business decision, because there’s a likelihood that people may also overblow the whole content legality issue in their country to the point where it may discourage Overflow from releasing anything when it may have actually been relatively safe to do so. Caution may likely be advised by experts, but if things aren’t that bad in actuality, excessive caution may also be detrimental. From a business perspective, an overestimation of the laws can also be just as bad, because it results in an unnecessary loss of a perfectly good business opportunity, especially in a time where the Japanese market and the overall economy are both struggling.

#20

Well, i’l only talk for my country (France).

The only law that could pose a threat is : all character must be 18 years old or more.
That’s all.

If stated that the character is more than 18, so no problem.even with a Loli appearence, Guro, hardcore SM, violence, rape etc…
Now, the game will get an X-Rated rating.Which mean a tax of 30% on the price and can only be sold in sex shop (for box version).And, in some case, they’ll check if you have a record for sexual agression, pedophilia etc…

But you can bypass this tax and check by buying a download version of the game.(well if the website where you buy is outside of the European zone, you’ll get a little tax too).

Well the French Law is special.Since you can contest lhe way the law was interpreted itself if you want.You can even appeal to a special court (Conseil d’Ètat) because you think that some decision made by the gouvernement are against some law.

[edit]
In fact i’ll detail more, because their is a big difference between American law and French law in the way they work.
let’s take, for exemple, a murder case.
In America you’re accused of murder and the prupose of the trial is to know if you are innocent or guilty.
in France, you"re innocent but under the suspicion of murder and the purpose of the trial is to know if you’ve broken the law or not.If it’s proven that you broke the law and murdered someone, then you’re guilty if it’s not proven you remain innocent.

[edit]
I was thinking and then… Well, i found my explanation really bad.
So, let’s start again.
In USA you’re found guilty for the act of murder (for exemple) and thus you apply the sentence found in the law about murder.
In France youre found guilty of the act of breaking the law about murder thus you’re reponsable of this act and the law says you get this sentence.