People's views on mosaic censorship?

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#52

Well I'm hoping a fair people pick up the digital version which boost sales. I think he reduced the print run due to the cutting content issue and the expected backlash along with the fact it is also getting a digital release which some people prefer.


I'm rather excited that Peter got something special for the Starless physical edition with the Sei interview. That sort of content makes it really special to me more so then the physical extras of a mouse pad e.x.t.


The main issue I think people have is the trust in regards to a fan patch, which is putting them off the initial purchase. A few people on the MG thread on Starless said they wanted to wait for that because they don't know if they can trust these fan patches and what they will deliver. Some complaints that it will be mosaic. I just hope sales get a boost from this and people see the good incentive behind it rather then use it to an excuses to pirate.


I'm still wondering what PP view is on the rest of the Empress games since Starless is pretty much the most extreme title they have on the market but he hasn't really made a statement about the other games except he'd like to bring more over which I'm kinda skeptical of based on the contention from Starless and Shiny Days. If he holds any concern for the scat content in Lewdness and the other games fringe content.


#53

The interview is certainly a great bonus as is the art book itself. Mouse pads are really a gimmick because a lot of people probably won’t get a chance to use it on open display.

As far as sales go, I’m hoping for the same thing as you are but I think some damage has been done already (people deciding to pirate out of spite) and that’s why I think Peter in-part reduced the LE print run.

I did post some marketing tips for adult titles here and here, and I think they’d help the game get a larger following so I hope they’ll take them into consideration. In my opinion Starless will be the best and most high quality nukige ever released in the west and I don’t see why sales shouldn’t follow in lock-step.

#54

The only expectations I have on a localization is to get the same thing Japan has, but in English. After all, the alternative is to use machine translations to assist me with understanding the Japanese, and that gives me the mosaic art anyway.


Getting restored (I prefer to use this term over uncensored) art is just a bonus, just as censorship (which is cutting content from the game) is a big negative.


I do however fully support the use of patches, since that is a great middle path to release adapted versions for various customers. Ideally there would be a bunch of them, and the original game is all-ages and then you add nudity, or nudity + sex, or nudity + sex + loli, etc. and going from all ages, to PG, to teen, to 18+.


A problem with patches however is that companies do not seem to make them and announce them. If they did, they'd get a lot of positive effects and increased sales. When it is fans making patches it becomes more of a "Well, the game is fine now, but I have to torrent it to not give money to censorship". I get the impression that companies are not allowed to officially do the patch stuff, but I can't at all understand why there is any issues involved with that.


As a side note though, why are games mosaiced when art is fine to just draw a bar on top? Seems to me the only reason is because people are so used they WANT the mosaic.

#55

If the mosaics are small and tasteful… maybe. Otherwise fuck it. Plenty of good games out there that deserve a localization.

#56

@Linus
As a side note though, why are games mosaiced when art is fine to just draw a bar on top? Seems to me the only reason is because people are so used they WANT the mosaic.

Japan’s law on this matter is extremely vague and leaves content producers to decide on how to avoid distributing, selling, or displaying obscene materials. Digital mosaics have become the standard for most professional industries, and there’s probably some legitimacy in thinking it is the method preferred by consumers, particularly as the implementation of mosaics have become less obtrusive.

Certainly, greater variance exists in how professional manga companies choose to obscure their art, although digital mosaics and completely whited out genitals are just as common in magazines and compilations as are their more subtle counterparts. When the Japanese government occasionally decides to go on an obscenity witch hunt, manga publishers that push the boundaries on concealment have often found themselves the prime targets of prosecution. In general, the method of masking privates in professional adult manga tends to wax and wane with the times. It’s also not uncommon to see the chosen censorship method used for a particular chapter or series change between the magazine and compilation release, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

Also worth keeping in mind when thinking about various fictional adult mediums is that there’s another whole gray area when getting into amateur works, which tend to be all over the place in terms of censorship method and severity.

Technically, a professional adult game company should be able to employ a form of censorship other than digital mosaics, but by breaking what seems to be a perceived standard for the industry, they’d be greatly increasing their risk of drawing unwanted attention to themselves.

#57

I would probably only consider purchasing the game after it became demosaiced two years later. I don’t mind waiting - there are lots of games in various genres that I wait for the “definitive” version to come out before playing it. For example, I’m waiting on the engine switch and balancing pass to play Wasteland 2. But if you go that route, please advertise the fact that it is now demosaiced on the pages where the game can actually be purchased, not just social media or the forums. I don’t get any enjoyment from looking at mosaiced images - this isn’t any kind of moral issue for me. Mosaics have been the reason I haven’t purchased games in the past, like ef or Suika A.S.+ . I wanted and could afford the Kickstarter boxed set of the Grisaia Trilogy, but decided not to get any version of the base three games because of the mosaics. Mosaics made me decide to purchase the Steam version of eden* instead of the more complete version. I had always purchased the more complete version whenever available prior to that. So, I wouldn’t be a day one purchaser, but if it works like you describe, I think it could be fine.

#58

The whole "beating around the bush" thing is annoying, because the only way to answer your question properly is to know what level of "mosaic censorship" we are talking about ,and what the game even is for that matter. People who are saying "yes" to this type of censorship blindly may have not seen the very extreme mosaic where genitalia is completely missing, and she is sucking on air for goodness sake. I will ask to please, just be direct with us and tell us the game in question, so we can look at some pictures and decide for ourselves. Jast, I understand you like announcing games at expos, but considering you might be walking away from this game anyway, or quitting the eroge industry based comments made by one of your employees named Peter Payne on the shining days forums, it may be beneficial to release the name of the game for all of us to see, and make a educated decision on this particular topic at hand.

Wait for two years, laughing out loud (lol), that's cute, but that is two years two late, and anyone holding there breath for two years might die from lack of oxygen, so I would be careful to not fooled into this sweet talking thing going on here at all for your own health and wellness.

Conclusion, this is still on going until some of the questions are answered.



#59

He can’t release the name of the game. If he decides to go for it, then we’ll know what game it is when the announcement is made. (Unfortunately probably a big if, considering how he reacted to the Shiny Days announcement, but one always hopes; it must be a kickass game.)

Nobody ever wants these things to become public. There’s a lot of downsides to this sort of thing airing publically, and no upside. (Apple found this out right away after launching the App Store; once or twice being publically embarrassed into approving an app and boom, NDAs around submission).

So if you want to work with this company more than the one time, or if you want to work with other similarly-situated companies (read: everyone important) who naturally pay attention to how you treat their colleagues, you don’t do things like announce confidential negotiation details. That would be a bridge-burning move. Those are almost always a bad idea.

#60

@ Nandemonai

Yes "he" can release the name of the game, because "he" is a human being with free will, so "he" can do whatever "he" wants like quitting the eroge industry and move onto HuniePop two, whoever "he" is, though I have a good idea who "he" could be. The Shiny Days reaction you are referring to was about the censorship, not about it being announced.

This statement about Apple is a false equivalence, because it is a different product,has a different market and level of exposure in the media then eroge does, but I would like to heard why you do not think it is a false equivalence.

This forum about "People's views on mosaic censorship" is about as public as a announcement can be without revealing the name of the game. I do not think it is not too much of stretch to say that we are part of the negotiations. We are being included in these talks about picking up ,or walking away from a game entirely based on what we say in this forum. If I am wrong, and what we say has no bearing on Jast decision to pick up or to walk away from this game then this thread should be closed immediately. I will conclude by saying if we are apart of this decision then we should at least know the name of the game.


#61

"The Shiny Days reaction you are referring to was about the censorship, not about it being announced."


And this discussion is about the possibility of JAST releasing mosaiced games, which could ignite the same sort of anti-censorship flaming / debate.


I've never heard of a single VN publisher that announces licenses they're pursuing before negotiations are finalized. Not a single one. You may want to know the name of the title, you may think it'd be useful for the sake of this discussion, but you're not going to get it. You'll just have to imagine it could be ANY VN, and frame your arguments accordingly. In the end, this isn't about the particular VN in question so much as JAST departing from its policy of demosaiced releases only.

#62

@ Dark_Shiki

I agree with many things you are saying, but just because you never heard of a single publisher announcing their game before things are finalized, does not mean they can not or should not give us the name of the game, since we are being asked in a sense to be part of this negotiation process, from my prospective.

I want the name of the game, and I know it would be useful for the sake of this discussion, and yes I agree I will not get the name of the game, but that means I or anyone else can not give a accurate or truthful answer based on our imaginations.

In the end, This forum may not have any point at all. I believe our answer will not have much of impact on Jast decision, because I do not really feel included in this decision. This whole two years in the making patch is a joke, and can not wait to see the forum thread created by Peter Payne the flame war master himself two years from now "patch not coming how mad are you", and I will be there to laugh out loud(lol). Finally to be honest, I think Jast has a good indication of how people feel about censorship right now in general, so I believe people do not have to reiterate their stance on this topic over and over again. Try asking us again sometime, maybe in two years when your mythical restoration patch comes out, magically created by the internet as Peter Payne believes.

#63

"Finally to be honest, I think Jast has a good indication of how people feel about censorship right now in general, so I believe people do not have to reiterate their stance on this topic over and over again."


I do not regard mosaiced images and removal of content in the same light, and based on the responses in this topic it seems many of those here agree.


I think Peter has posted a very important question that has real consequences for the English market. I'll repeat: the importance of this topic isn't the game in question. It's the potential of policy change. Depending on your perspective, JAST moving forward with mosaiced releases is a great advance or an infuriating regression. Do you want popular titles recently released in Japan, or do you want demosaiced art no exceptions no excuses? The fanbase's answer could very well set a new trajectory for not just JAST, but the entire English market.

#64

A question for Peter: are you satisfied with the responses you've received so far from the people who hang around here, or do you want feedback from a larger audience? If you put some effort into framing the question more clearly with some thought into the wider policy implications (and a poll to go with it), I'd be willing to help publicize this so it gets more attention from the wider fanbase.

#65

One of the main reasons that I look forward to official English releases of eroge is that they can be uncensored, so I will not buy a game that has mosaic censorship. As long as you release a patch later then I suppose it would be okay, but I'm just afraid that this will lead to more censorship of English games in the future. I've already written off some games that MangaGamer has released because of their censorship.


Just wanted to make my voice heard, since it feels like an overwhelming portion of people these days are okay with (or at least apathetic about) censorship of certain games, as long as it leads to a game getting released (albeit incomplete).

#66

I don’t think people are merely okay or indifferent to mosaic. In some cases they are in favor of it because the original artists did not draw the genitals with quality because it was meant to be censored anyway. And it is very rare for a title to get redrawn art and you may be left with pretty unexiting genitals.

In short it is not one answer for all titles, but it really depends per title if mosaic is fine to keep.

#67

I want to say, thanks for everyone's comments here. So our official policy would be to fight very hard against ever releasing anything mosaiced (which we've never done), yet be flexible if it is the only way we can get a certain game license. We'd make the mosaic as tiny and "fine" as possible in that case.

#68

Oh I'm a new member here who joined specifically to express my preference of censored games. Yes please release the original games as they're released in Japan! Unlike adult video content game cg's are usually drawn with the intent of getting censored and genitals do not have the same amount of detail in them and tend to take away a lot from the overall appeal of the cg's in my opinion.

#69

Late to the party, but my 2 bits is if you have to mosaic it, don't bother.


I'll play something that doesn't need mosaics over something that has mosaics.


Which is to say, while I'm thankful for it as we get unmosaiced "hardcore" shots, I find it difficult to understand the jp mindset to use mosaics in the first place, when camera angles/clever obstructions that avoid the need altogether would (IMO) be preferable. Unless it's so that they CAN sell the unmosaiced version in other jurisdictions/under the table. (or people can modify them to make their own)


It has absolutely nothing to do with my views on censorship. I just find the whole mosaic thing extremely jarring/ugly. On a similar note, I won't buy something mosaicked with promise of a demosaic patch in 2 years. I'll wait until said demosaic patch is available before I buy it. (by which time I'll probably have forgotten about it.)


As such, I'm concerned with the "slippery slope". Once Jast releases one title with mosaics, it would presumably simply be a matter of time before other companies demand the same, and then there wouldn't be any without.


FWIW, I seem to remember the law against pornographic *depictions* of minors (as opposed to actual photographs, i.e. anime) is actually a relatively recent law in the U.S. (looked it up, 2003.) And from wikipedia there was a conviction (upheld in 2008) of somebody for possessing "obscene Japanese anime cartoons that graphically depicted prepubescent female children being forced to engage in genital-genital and oral-genital intercourse with adult males". That said, the law for *depictions* isn't as clear cut as photographs, and is based on obscenity or lacking any artistic/literary/etc. merit, which makes it a huge grey area.)


That said, I didn't realize there was anything illegal about scat or bestiality *depictions* in the U.S. and from a Quick google search only referenced it's illegality when depictions of minors are involved. I suppose it's possible it's illegal in other regions in question?



P.S. I find it peculiar that the reason they don't want to license non-mosaic versions until a later date or not at all is because reverse import of the international version hurts their domestic sales. I'm assuming I'm missing something, but that seems like that'd be a strong argument to simply make an international version themselves in the first place, instead of licensing it out.

#70

@ Nathan Baker


"I find it peculiar that the reason they don't want to license non-mosaic versions until a later date or not at all is because reverse import of the international version hurts their domestic sales."


Put yourself in the Japanese companies shoes, its already hard enough trying to get people to buy your game when in a lot of cases people can download it for free illegally, but its a lot harder to sell your game if a superior version (uncensored) is available for free online. Would you pay close to $100 for a censored game if you can download the uncensored version for free online?


"I'm assuming I'm missing something, but that seems like that'd be a strong argument to simply make an international version themselves in the first place, instead of licensing it out."


One of the most common rules in business is for a company to focus on what they do best and to outsource the rest. That means that the developers will focus on making games targeted at their domestic audience and if they do want foreign revenues they'll partner with a company like JAST or MG to translate and distribute their games in English speaking markets. Also the size of the English market, compared to the larger Japanese one, makes it less lucrative to hold up a release in order to get it translated.

#71

In general, Japanese fans hate international fans because we complicate their fandom, causing "Rapelay events" to happen and peeing in their Wheaties, so to speak. Companies like, say, Nitroplus, have to balance fan discomfort against the money we'll bring to them. Often, they opt to not bother with the international market, at least until the domestic market has dried up for them. Remember that selling uncensored versions of 18+ imagery is illegal in Japan.


(One company we dealt with, which I won't mention by name, literally did ??? yonige or "running away in the night" on us. We found out later that the president had been arrested for trying to make uncensores games on a server in the US and sell them back into Japan.)