People's views on mosaic censorship?

Visual Novel Community Visual Novel Talk
#41

@ jacksprat1


I find the unanimous grudging acceptance of "mosaic" censorship versus the ongoing gnashing of teeth over "uncensored, but minus a few CGs" censorship very contradictory and puzzling. By what sort of logic are fans being deprived of more content by missing a infinitesimal sliver of an otherwise-uncensored game than they are by putting digital beer goggles over all the sexual imagery?


The type of logic that permits this type of thinking is idol worship. Even though people know in their minds that they abhor censorship, as demonstrated by their expressed views on domestic censorship, they ignore mosaics because they are a part of the culture they fully and unconditionally worship as being superior. While there's nothing wrong with having idol worship influencing your enjoyment of entertainment there is a problem when you try to force your views onto others.


The fact that reverse importation is one of the greatest concerns for Japanese companies when considering foreign releases should tell you that clearly not everyone in the all-mighty Nippon is on board with this "generally accepted" and "culturally astute" practice. Artists themselves are also don't unanimously support this practice judging by their artwork. Some try to make the best of it (as Dark_Shiki described) while others continue to draw what they want to resulting in mosaic censorship.


So you do highlight a very valid point/contradiction: Japanese censorship isn't inherently superior to Western censorship just because the nationality of the person doing the censoring is Japanese.


The other contradiction in this thread being Peter pointing the finger at Japanese companies for being "more worried about Japanese law then they should be." That was pretty funny XD

#42

@jacksprat1


Releasing a game censored by request of the original creators is a completely different subject from stuff getting cut.


Having taken part in both discussions my view is that if certain games cannot be released unless initially censored then later uncensored, its a decent option compared to them never getting a international release, although at the same time, i'll use shiny days as an example say that the go ahead was given by 0verflow to uncensor their game and JAST chose not to do this either for the whole game or certain scenes that would not be alright with me personally as there's no reason for it to be censored (this isn't happening btw its just an example)


i'm not going to go into any further detail here regarding the whole cut scenes issue as JAST is probably getting enough comments regarding it in their other threads without it being brought up here as well.

#43

My view is that of I want the story complete with no cuts, uncensored art is just the icing to playing it in English when it comes to Japanese developed hentai games getting licensed and also makes up for the long ass wait.


The JP have hentai content on a different level compared to the west which could be down to the mosaic law and the general way they view artistic drawings being to cater for everyone. While in the west we have had more of a cartoons are mainly for kids approach and therefor cartoons with sex is porn aimed at children mindset from older generations.


If we look at it like a Western erotic VN getting mosaic added in to it for a Japanese sales, I could see a interesting point, but that is very unlikely due to the differences on what is deemed unacceptable content.

But my bigger issue would be if they cut content or omitted it entirely.

Since what is deemed acceptable uncensored sexually here differs from Japan. While what they deem sexual acceptable no matter will have mosaic censoring. Due to this creators in the west and east have to cater for what passes in those parts of the world and have that mind set when creating content they want to sell.


Now if we could have a place where uncensored art was acceptable and any fictional sexual content we would have balance for both ways of localization.

#44

@ jacksprat1: My stance on censorship here is that I expect at the very least the same product that Japan gets. Nothing would be getting cut here. Japanese censorship laws are stupid. I’m pretty sure everyone here would agree with that, but Japanese companies have to obey them which complicates the licensing process. The creators insisting on using mosaics is a completely different issue from actively cutting content from a visual novel in my opinion. In contrast, there’s the Shiny Days and Starless situation. Other visual novels have come out featuring obvious loli content and scat, so that situation seems more debatable at the very least. You can see a lot of comparisons like that in the official thread on this board. There supposedly will be an unofficial patch, but that’s still not an ideal situation.

Plus, anyone who watches or reads hentai, doujinshi, JAV, etc. are likely already used to mosaics and stuff, so that helps. I really don’t want mosaics to become a trend over here, but I still think the potential risks are worth it if the visual novel in question is a good one. It’s really not worth it if the vn is a nukige though, and I say that as someone that likes nukige.

#45

@ Jonathan

My stance on censorship here is that I expect at the very least the same product that Japan gets. Nothing would be getting cut here.

This may or may not be a reasonable expectation depending on the title at hand and your country of residence.

The creators insisting on using mosaics is a completely different issue from actively cutting content from a visual novel in my opinion.

In both cases certain content, that was part of the original design, isn’t being included based on censorship laws of various countries so with that in mind it’s at least equal in my book (your opinion of this may vary depending on how you value the different kinds of content being removed, and that’s ok since we’re talking personal preference here).

However I would say that the owners insisting on a censored western release is worse than cutting content (that is illegal in most western countries) as depiction of genitals is not illegal in the West; why be deprived of something that’s not even illegal in your own country. So worst case scenario we may be getting a version that contains mosaics and that has scenes cut. Note that only one of these restrictions would be based upon domestic law.

I’d say it would be more reasonable for a Japanese company to ask the western company to remove certain scenes that they know are illegal in said countries where the game is going to be sold in to avoid any legal or PR backlash involving their properties (which is what we were told happened with Starless).

There supposedly will be an unofficial patch, but that’s still not an ideal situation.

How is this not an ideal solution? Peter, his company, and his employees don’t have to live in fear of legal retribution and the fans will get to play the game as it was truly intended to be experienced. Not even the fans in Japan can lay claim to that. (That’s assuming the patches materialize and if there were to be any technical issues with said patches they would be fixed by the internet/powers that be…)

Plus, anyone who watches or reads hentai, doujinshi, JAV, etc. are likely already used to mosaics and stuff, so that helps.

That’s like saying if you live in certain western countries you should already be used to being denied access to certain content and therefore shouldn’t be surprised (much less enraged) when it was removed from said product, right?

I really don’t want mosaics to become a trend over here, but I still think the potential risks are worth it if the visual novel in question is a good one.

I’ll definitely agree with that. If mosaic removal is totally off the table and if its a game that can elevate JAST to the next level then who am I to disagree with that choice.

†

#46

@HyugaX

However I would say that the owners insisting on a censored western release is worse than cutting content (that is illegal in most western countries) as depiction of genitals is not illegal in the West; why be deprived of something that’s not even illegal in your own country. So worst case scenario we may be getting a version that contains mosaics and that has scenes cut. Note that only one of these restrictions would be based upon domestic law.

I’d say it would be more reasonable for a Japanese company to ask the western company to remove certain scenes that they know are illegal in said countries where the game is going to be sold in to avoid any legal or PR backlash involving their properties (which is what we were told happened with Starless).

I disagree. The mosaics would be included because of licensing and reverse importation issues. I’m more willing to accept that the creators were being stubborn during negotiations and forced Jast’s hand than Jast going out of their way to cut content themselves. Like I said, loli and scat content have been released before. There’s a ton of hentai OVAs that contain scat that are available uncensored in the US. That’s key for me. Other companies are doing it. Heck, Jast themselves have released Little Witch Romanesque and Saya no Uta which are pretty undeniably loli.


How is this not an ideal solution? Peter, his company, and his employees don’t have to live in fear of legal retribution and the fans will get to play the game as it was truly intended to be experienced. Not even the fans in Japan can lay claim to that. (That’s assuming the patches materialize and if there were to be any technical issues with said patches they would be fixed by the internet/powers that be…)

Because I’m not a fan of buying an unfinished product and having to rely on the internet to get the full one. I’m also not a fan of having to rely on someone’s word that a patch will appear (no offense meant to anyone at Jast) which is why I’ll be holding off on preordering Shiny Days. And I don’t like that it paves a road to cutting anything controversial and justifying it by providing a patch. I am willing to accept it as a solution, but it’s far from ideal. Like I said before, other controversial visual novels are getting released without problems. Heck, Euphoria is coming out with likely no censorship.

That’s like saying if you live in certain western countries you should already be used to being denied access to certain content and therefore shouldn’t be surprised (much less enraged) when it was removed from said product, right?

Again, I have Little Witch Romanesque, Imouto Paradise, Saya no Uta, and Koihime Muso hard copies on my shelf right now. All feature loli routes. If the visual novel industry collectively said no to loli content, maybe I’d be more understanding. That’s not the case. Even Jast themselves released Romanesque and Saya no Uta uncut.

We’re getting way off topic here. I suggest we drop it or take this to another thread. Peter asked a good question, and I don’t want to scare him away from licensing whatever this may be.

#47

@ Jonathan

The mosaics would be included because of licensing and reverse importation issues. I’m more willing to accept that the creators were being stubborn during negotiations and forced Jast’s hand than Jast going out of their way to cut content themselves.

If such a Japanese company cared that much about its IP that they won’t allow an uncensored release fearing reverse importation or potential legal troubles at home from having uncensored CGs being patched back into their domestic games, as is the case with minori, then why wouldn’t such a company not insist on removing content from a foreign release that is illegal in a number of countries where the game will be sold in. Think about it. Why would you be willing to accept one but not the other?

Like I said, loli and scat content have been released before. There’s a ton of hentai OVAs that contain scat that are available uncensored in the US.

I’m well aware of that and I used the same argument in the Starless thread regarding the removal of scat and depiction of graphic violence (which was before I knew what we know now). I’m not so sure how many OVAs were released with loli content though (not my thing) but I do seem to recall Rightstuf (who sells and even licenses uncut scat titles) censoring one of their titles for loli content and Anime 18 cutting shota content out of Urotsukidoji IV so JAST seems to have a foot to stand on here legally. Also in recent history there have been court cases in Europe (one of JAST’s target markets) involving jail time for manga with loli content which surely influenced Peter’s decision.

Heck, Jast themselves have released Little Witch Romanesque and Saya no Uta which are pretty undeniably loli.


I believe Nicholas addressed this one in the Shiny days thread, too many pages to look it up (sorry).


Because I’m not a fan of buying an unfinished product and having to rely on the internet to get the full one.


If there was a game breaking glitch in the middle of the game you’d go online to patch it right? Unless you have no internet or dial up I don’t see how this is an inconvenience.


I’m also not a fan of having to rely on someone’s word that a patch will appear (no offense meant to anyone at Jast) which is why I’ll be holding off on preordering Shiny Days.


If you’ve ever bought a game on its release date you were putting your trust in someone. Keep in mind not every company announced the cuts they’re going to make. Also there’s nothing wrong with holding off until you’ve read some reviews for the patched game. I was thinking about trusting Peter and pre-ordering Starless on Rightstuf but it still wasn’t listed. And then there was the whole “we haven’t ever announced Kikokugai” affair, what to do, what to do…


And I don’t like that it paves a road to cutting anything controversial and justifying it by providing a patch. I am willing to accept it as a solution, but it’s far from ideal.


The English VN market is made of up 3 companies right now. Of those I estimate only 2 would be willing to release the kind of content you most desire. If the current way forward will enable one of those 2 companies to continue to keep bringing you these titles (despite all current events) I don’t see how that’s not a win-win.


Like I said before, other controversial visual novels are getting released without problems. Heck, Euphoria is coming out with likely no censorship.


MangaGamer and JAST are two different companies with different corporate structures that each have a different way of interpreting legal risk. Instead of describing the real-life worst case scenario for MG’s legal choices I’ll just use an analogy instead: If MangaGamer was a John shacking up with a hooker they’d go straight for unprotected anal sex while JAST would start out by adding some protection first.


Again, I have Little Witch Romanesque, Imouto Paradise, Saya no Uta, and Koihime Muso hard copies on my shelf right now. All feature loli routes.


Would they be on your shelf if your postal inspector had opened them before they got to you. Maybe so in your case, but the same cannot be said for everyone in the west; and sadly the VN industry isn’t big enough to support different regional releases by different companies as is the case for the anime/manga industry so JAST’s decision is a very reasonable one (for both fans and itself).


If the visual novel industry collectively said no to loli content, maybe I’d be more understanding. That’s not the case.


So if a group you’re a part of collectively decides against something, you’d be more willing to support that decision as an individual? Hmm… I’m sensing a contradiction here but I can’t put my finger on it…


Looking back at how all of this started (with Starless) I think all parties involved would have been better served if JAST had chosen its wording with a little more consideration. Maybe something like “we can’t release an official patch for these titles due to current censorship laws but were quite certain that a solution will materialize that won’t just satisfy some of our fans but every single one of you.” That way the fanbase wouldn’t have gone berserk, Peter wouldn’t have gotten pissed off, and the sword of Damocles wouldn’t be hovering above a potential release for Dominance and Lewdness (hope that was just Peter raging). I’m hoping that it can become a reality and will be sure to support Starless official release.


We’re getting way off topic here. I suggest we drop it or take this to another thread.


That’s cool with me. I’ve said my part but if you’d like to continue the discussion in another thread that’s fine with me too.

†

#48

@ HyugaX:

This is my last reply. I promise. I mainly just want to clear a few things up rather than continuing to argue.

I’m well aware of that and I used the same argument in the Starless thread regarding the removal of scat and depiction of graphic violence (which was before I knew what we know now). I’m not so sure how many OVAs were released with loli content though (not my thing) but I do seem to recall Rightstuf (who sells and even licenses uncut scat titles) censoring one of their titles for loli content and Anime 18 cutting shota content out of Urotsukidoji IV so JAST seems to have a foot to stand on here legally. Also in recent history there have been court cases in Europe (one of JAST’s target markets) involving jail time for manga with loli content which surely influenced Peter’s decision.

I should have been more clear. For loli content, I was referring to visual novels. I don’t know of any hentai OVAs that were released in the US that contain it. For scat, I was referring to hentai OVAs† since there’s a lot that heavily feature it.

So if a group you’re a part of collectively decides against something, you’d be more willing to support that decision as an individual? Hmm… I’m sensing a contradiction here but I can’t put my finger on it…


For this, it’s because I can actually buy the legality defense if others didn’t release such content. If the visual novel industry collectively said, “We can’t release this content. It’s illegal. Nothing we can do” then I’d buy that line of defense. I probably still wouldn’t buy any vns that were cut, but I wouldn’t have the same degree of reaction.


Oh, and I did read Nicholas’ defense in the Shiny Days thread, but I don’t really buy some of it particularly about Romanesque’s setting somehow making the loli content okay. It just sounds odd and not quite right to me. I’m not a lawyer, so I could very well be wrong. At the same time, that’s something I’d only believe coming from a lawyer. If Jast did talk to their lawyers or something about that, feel free to correct me. I’d love to be wrong.


#49

I know of at least one OVA that had loli scenes cut that hasn’t been listed. Can Can Bunny Extra had an episode with a teacher and a schoolgirl, and the teacher had a scene and the student didn’t. Except in the raw version, the student does.

I suspect the problem with Kokoro is that while the standard dodge of having characters go to an “academy” and never using the words “high school” work okay for the girls the same age as Makoto, she’s a younger sister. She probably doesn’t go to the same school.


If that’s accurate, then it’s much easier for a prosecutor to establish that Kokoro is underage than for these other titles. Nobody is going to believe that Kokoro is a college student and everyone else is a grad student. Nobody.


For Imopara, they’re all “in school” but they’re implied to be at equivalent levels. In Littlewitch, studying magic is explicitly stated to take decades, they’ve clearly already been students for an indeterminate period of time at the start, and (unless it shows up in stuff I haven’t seen yet) they don’t mention any actual ages at all. Koihime Musou is even more vague, and as for Saya no Uta, who can say how old Saya is in human years?


And @HyugaX: Of course it isn’t just Peter raging. These are small companies, they don’t have the money to follow up a bomb with a similar game to see if it works better changed up a bit. if Starless doesn’t turn a profit, why would Jast or Will throw good money after bad?

#50

Despite my complaints, I do hope that was frustration talking when Peter said that he likely won't consider releasing more vns like that. As long as patches do emerge, I'll be happy and will definitely buy Shiny Days. Starless is a maybe. I still maintain that it's not a perfect solution, but I'm willing to make this compromise. I sincerely do hope that both games do well if the proposed solution works and all that. I do and will encourage others to buy both games.

#51

@ Jonathan


For this, it's because I can actually buy the legality defense if others didn't release such content. If the visual novel industry collectively said, "We can't release this content. It's illegal. Nothing we can do" then I'd buy that line of defense.


The point I'm trying to make is that the only thing that really matters in this regard is the law not the community standard. Just because your physically able to order these games online doesn't necessarily make it legal for you to do so. If you live in the US or Germany you're probably ok, but if you live in Canada or the UK you might want to rethink expanding that glorious display of fandom sitting on your shelf.


Also JAST can't exactly come out and address MG's practices directly by saying "unlike MG we're not willing to send you a parcel that could send you to jail." If they did that we'd label them as a ruthless and uncaring corporation that only cares about its bottom line (been there, done that [see my Starless sales argument], sorry about that Peter I realize I was wrong now based on some of the posts you've made since then).


And even in Japan different companies interpret their own laws differently; just look at all the different types and levels of censorship in H-manga publications; why can't we be that lucky...


@ Nandemonai


Of course it isn't just Peter raging. These are small companies, they don't have the money to follow up a bomb with a similar game to see if it works better changed up a bit.


The wording of his replies didn't indicate to me that the decision was contingent on sales but was in response to the flack he was taking after making his official post regarding Shiny Days:


"Shall we aim future releases at less passionate customers in the future, perhaps copy Huniepop with puzzle games instead of harder-core titles from Japan?"


"I honestly believe we will never make any content changes to any game in the future, due to the resistance from everyone about Starless and Shiny Days. I can say that with 99.9% certainty. So hopefully this will be the last thread of this kind I'll be participating in. So I do thank everyone for your comments and feedback."


if Starless doesn't turn a profit, why would Jast or Will throw good money after bad?


Yeah that's a given. And what worries me is that Peter already stated that he reduced the print run for both the Starless and Shiny Days LEs. I hope this isn't an indication that he has effectively given up on marketing these two titles (beyond his twitter posts) based off of the barrage of negative posts we've seen (and posted) the last few weeks/months. Now that everyone's on the same page (finally) I'd say its time to start promoting these games so that we can see similar releases in the future.

#52

Well I'm hoping a fair people pick up the digital version which boost sales. I think he reduced the print run due to the cutting content issue and the expected backlash along with the fact it is also getting a digital release which some people prefer.


I'm rather excited that Peter got something special for the Starless physical edition with the Sei interview. That sort of content makes it really special to me more so then the physical extras of a mouse pad e.x.t.


The main issue I think people have is the trust in regards to a fan patch, which is putting them off the initial purchase. A few people on the MG thread on Starless said they wanted to wait for that because they don't know if they can trust these fan patches and what they will deliver. Some complaints that it will be mosaic. I just hope sales get a boost from this and people see the good incentive behind it rather then use it to an excuses to pirate.


I'm still wondering what PP view is on the rest of the Empress games since Starless is pretty much the most extreme title they have on the market but he hasn't really made a statement about the other games except he'd like to bring more over which I'm kinda skeptical of based on the contention from Starless and Shiny Days. If he holds any concern for the scat content in Lewdness and the other games fringe content.


#53

The interview is certainly a great bonus as is the art book itself. Mouse pads are really a gimmick because a lot of people probably won’t get a chance to use it on open display.

As far as sales go, I’m hoping for the same thing as you are but I think some damage has been done already (people deciding to pirate out of spite) and that’s why I think Peter in-part reduced the LE print run.

I did post some marketing tips for adult titles here and here, and I think they’d help the game get a larger following so I hope they’ll take them into consideration. In my opinion Starless will be the best and most high quality nukige ever released in the west and I don’t see why sales shouldn’t follow in lock-step.

#54

The only expectations I have on a localization is to get the same thing Japan has, but in English. After all, the alternative is to use machine translations to assist me with understanding the Japanese, and that gives me the mosaic art anyway.


Getting restored (I prefer to use this term over uncensored) art is just a bonus, just as censorship (which is cutting content from the game) is a big negative.


I do however fully support the use of patches, since that is a great middle path to release adapted versions for various customers. Ideally there would be a bunch of them, and the original game is all-ages and then you add nudity, or nudity + sex, or nudity + sex + loli, etc. and going from all ages, to PG, to teen, to 18+.


A problem with patches however is that companies do not seem to make them and announce them. If they did, they'd get a lot of positive effects and increased sales. When it is fans making patches it becomes more of a "Well, the game is fine now, but I have to torrent it to not give money to censorship". I get the impression that companies are not allowed to officially do the patch stuff, but I can't at all understand why there is any issues involved with that.


As a side note though, why are games mosaiced when art is fine to just draw a bar on top? Seems to me the only reason is because people are so used they WANT the mosaic.

#55

If the mosaics are small and tasteful… maybe. Otherwise fuck it. Plenty of good games out there that deserve a localization.

#56

@Linus
As a side note though, why are games mosaiced when art is fine to just draw a bar on top? Seems to me the only reason is because people are so used they WANT the mosaic.

Japan’s law on this matter is extremely vague and leaves content producers to decide on how to avoid distributing, selling, or displaying obscene materials. Digital mosaics have become the standard for most professional industries, and there’s probably some legitimacy in thinking it is the method preferred by consumers, particularly as the implementation of mosaics have become less obtrusive.

Certainly, greater variance exists in how professional manga companies choose to obscure their art, although digital mosaics and completely whited out genitals are just as common in magazines and compilations as are their more subtle counterparts. When the Japanese government occasionally decides to go on an obscenity witch hunt, manga publishers that push the boundaries on concealment have often found themselves the prime targets of prosecution. In general, the method of masking privates in professional adult manga tends to wax and wane with the times. It’s also not uncommon to see the chosen censorship method used for a particular chapter or series change between the magazine and compilation release, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

Also worth keeping in mind when thinking about various fictional adult mediums is that there’s another whole gray area when getting into amateur works, which tend to be all over the place in terms of censorship method and severity.

Technically, a professional adult game company should be able to employ a form of censorship other than digital mosaics, but by breaking what seems to be a perceived standard for the industry, they’d be greatly increasing their risk of drawing unwanted attention to themselves.

#57

I would probably only consider purchasing the game after it became demosaiced two years later. I don’t mind waiting - there are lots of games in various genres that I wait for the “definitive” version to come out before playing it. For example, I’m waiting on the engine switch and balancing pass to play Wasteland 2. But if you go that route, please advertise the fact that it is now demosaiced on the pages where the game can actually be purchased, not just social media or the forums. I don’t get any enjoyment from looking at mosaiced images - this isn’t any kind of moral issue for me. Mosaics have been the reason I haven’t purchased games in the past, like ef or Suika A.S.+ . I wanted and could afford the Kickstarter boxed set of the Grisaia Trilogy, but decided not to get any version of the base three games because of the mosaics. Mosaics made me decide to purchase the Steam version of eden* instead of the more complete version. I had always purchased the more complete version whenever available prior to that. So, I wouldn’t be a day one purchaser, but if it works like you describe, I think it could be fine.

#58

The whole "beating around the bush" thing is annoying, because the only way to answer your question properly is to know what level of "mosaic censorship" we are talking about ,and what the game even is for that matter. People who are saying "yes" to this type of censorship blindly may have not seen the very extreme mosaic where genitalia is completely missing, and she is sucking on air for goodness sake. I will ask to please, just be direct with us and tell us the game in question, so we can look at some pictures and decide for ourselves. Jast, I understand you like announcing games at expos, but considering you might be walking away from this game anyway, or quitting the eroge industry based comments made by one of your employees named Peter Payne on the shining days forums, it may be beneficial to release the name of the game for all of us to see, and make a educated decision on this particular topic at hand.

Wait for two years, laughing out loud (lol), that's cute, but that is two years two late, and anyone holding there breath for two years might die from lack of oxygen, so I would be careful to not fooled into this sweet talking thing going on here at all for your own health and wellness.

Conclusion, this is still on going until some of the questions are answered.



#59

He can’t release the name of the game. If he decides to go for it, then we’ll know what game it is when the announcement is made. (Unfortunately probably a big if, considering how he reacted to the Shiny Days announcement, but one always hopes; it must be a kickass game.)

Nobody ever wants these things to become public. There’s a lot of downsides to this sort of thing airing publically, and no upside. (Apple found this out right away after launching the App Store; once or twice being publically embarrassed into approving an app and boom, NDAs around submission).

So if you want to work with this company more than the one time, or if you want to work with other similarly-situated companies (read: everyone important) who naturally pay attention to how you treat their colleagues, you don’t do things like announce confidential negotiation details. That would be a bridge-burning move. Those are almost always a bad idea.

#60

@ Nandemonai

Yes "he" can release the name of the game, because "he" is a human being with free will, so "he" can do whatever "he" wants like quitting the eroge industry and move onto HuniePop two, whoever "he" is, though I have a good idea who "he" could be. The Shiny Days reaction you are referring to was about the censorship, not about it being announced.

This statement about Apple is a false equivalence, because it is a different product,has a different market and level of exposure in the media then eroge does, but I would like to heard why you do not think it is a false equivalence.

This forum about "People's views on mosaic censorship" is about as public as a announcement can be without revealing the name of the game. I do not think it is not too much of stretch to say that we are part of the negotiations. We are being included in these talks about picking up ,or walking away from a game entirely based on what we say in this forum. If I am wrong, and what we say has no bearing on Jast decision to pick up or to walk away from this game then this thread should be closed immediately. I will conclude by saying if we are apart of this decision then we should at least know the name of the game.