Checked two or three sites, but only Triangle has a post (from Narg?) so far.
However I’m not worried yet, after all if the “Governments will never act against the strong, only against the weak” theory is correct…
…I think that the eroge players in Japan are officially despised but still pretty strong (in number at least).
I’m with Shade453 (“It will probably blow over after a time, when the media goes to harass someone else”) on this.
You’re disgusted by that? Fine. So am I. I don’t play games that feature this kind of thing for exactly this reason. But “wrong”? I’m sorry, no. As far as I’m concerned, deciding whether or not it’s wrong is simple: Was any real person in the real world harmed in the making of it? If not, then I don’t even need to know what’s in the work before I can answer. it doesn’t matter what’s contained in it, it’s not “wrong” to write a story. To say otherwise is to implicitly claim that you are able to decide which thoughts are and are not appropriate.
Personally I find the idea of eating uncooked flesh of any kind repulsive. So I do not eat sushi. But why would anyone care what I think about sushi? Similarly, I find the sight of two men kissing inherently repulsive. Does this mean that it is bad? No, it means that I am weak. Far too often, people forget that they are hard-wired to have “gut feelings” about a huge array of issues. Just because their gut tells them to shy away from something does not mean that it must be bad.
Do I find brutal eroge disturbing? Yes. To me, the most disturbing thing of all is that the customer is intended to get off on the abuse. But so what? Why would it matter that I find it disgusting? That’s entirely irrelevant.
People enjoy this sort of thing precisely because it isn’t real. Action movies are exciting for exactly the same reason, and are vulnerable to the exact same description. And they got the same kind of flak a few years back. One can describe things like Hostel in the same terms – look at the extreme horror movie stuff that’s out there. They can be described in similar terms. Look at the Rule of Rose controversy, where the game’s European release was cancelled because a politician demanded to know why a horror game would use horror themes.
This argument has been made all over the place, about every single new sort of media, going all the way back to the invention of the novel. Novels, comic books in the US, television, radio, porn, video games … Everything. You cannot make that argument without also conceding that Jack Thompson is correct.
But that doesn’t matter. Whether you are correct or not, is irrelevant. Would you rather people who have such inclinations satisfy themselves via fiction, or via bottling it up, then blowing up in the real world with real consequences to real people? Because you cannot simply have them all committed as a danger to society. We’ve been down that road before, it’s not a pleasant place to be.
I Looked around, and I gather this is just an EOCS ploy to get the media of their back…
Basically, the Rapelay Incident got on the Japanese news, which is extremely sensationalized. They basically ignored the Feminazis from another country, but when the media started running with it, they basically try to lay low until it passes over.
The EOCS system has plenty of loopholes, and groups could migrate to the CSA if they need to. Not to mention that this is likely temporary anyway. If The EOCS is serious,
several groups will move over to the CSA, then they’ll lift the ban to stay competitive, just like what happened with incest before.
Can we please not use the ‘feminazi’ term? There is nothing wrong with being a feminist. Nor is this current nonsense actually about hating men, it’s about being blind and reactionary. They’re not seeing outside of their own little focus and flailing blindly. It’s not an uncommon trait…
I really do hope this is merely an empty boast to sidestep attention. I’m rather fond of games like Eushully’s that present both light and dark paths, or even mix the two for dramatic effect (Ikusa Megami Zero). Sweetness loses its appeal in the absence of bitterness–true flavor lies in the contrast.
Phbbbbbbbbbbbbt.
The sofurin, with their old fashioned bible-thumping subjective morals can SINK for all I care, and everyone else can sell on dlsite =P
I don’t think companies like Eushully and Alicesoft have to worry because, while their games can contain rape, the main aspect of their products is on actual gameplay. That being said I doubt it will last long considering that genre is clearly fairly popular what with the large number of titles that get released. I’m not a fan of them myself but I also don’t agree with banning them on the assumption that they turn people into rapists. The simple fact is that if someone plays one of those games and goes out and rapes someone then they had something wrong with them in the first place, and placing the blame on the game is not going to solve anything.
Why would Lilith care? They aren’t sofurin, and the CSA isn’t quite THIS stupid.
Wow, quite a flurry of activity while I was asleep. There is much to respond to, so this may take awhile.
I do believe that Overlord’s comment was in regard to Narg talking about the entire war that is being waged against eroge and such, not just the issue regarding “rape games”.
Quite true for the most part, unfortunately. It seems that action is only taken against strong groups when an even stronger group gets upset with the government for not doing anything. For example, the banking lobby is very strong in Washington D.C., but there was enough public outcry that something was done. Generally, in Washington it is a good idea to appease your boss (otherwise known as your constituents), or else you won’t have a job the next time your up for election.
Narg, I couldn’t agree more with your response to umarekawari. (I’d quote, but it would take up way too much space.) I too find the things he describes in bad taste (probably feeling a bit ill like him as well). I find the idea of wine bottles shoved up asses and electrodes attached to genitals in bad taste too, but like with guro I don’t feel a need to force what I like on others.
While this quote is used frequently by those of us standing against the erosion of the 2nd Amendment, I would say that using it in this instance is well justified as well.
To a lesser extent is the fact that there is some friction between the light and dark camps of eroge. Some in the light camp would love to see the dark camp fail, even if it means that what the light camp enjoys might be next.
Because several groups in the Diet have been looking for a spring board to outlaw several kinds of eroge and “improve” their political career… this is exactly the kind of opening they’ve been looking for. Just because the others haven’t moved towards curbing themselves, doesn’t mean the government won’t enforce it on them. You’re too optimistic of the situation: hentai in Japan has been under a LOT of pressure over the last 12 months. It’s not a question of if the camel’s back is going to break, it’s a matter of when. This weathering the storm crap won’t last. The storm is getting worst.
The more Japan appears to be sandbagging the issue, the more these opposition groups will push harder. In fact the UN issued several warnings to Japan about all this (so has Interpol). As Japan is consistently ignoring them, there’s been rumbling to make a formal condemnation. Don’t think these issues aren’t snowballing, because they are. It’s pretty clear the US and UK are NOT going to oppose them. Russia and China have no love for Japan. That leaves France… and I don’t think this is an issue they’ll stick their neck on a chopping board for. You act like the political climate in Japan is pro-hentai… it’s not… two key members of the Japanese Cabinet are STRONGLY anti-hentai: Kunio Hatoyama and Seiko Noda (TRIPLE THREAT NOTE: #1 Minister of Consumer Affairs; #2 When Japan got a new PM she kept her position because of the power and influence she holds; #3 She’s one of the key people the anti-rape and anti-lolicon groups are sending their letters to, so she can use them as ammo). They’re gaining more support: not losing it. Each time something like this happens, the hand moves closer to Judgment Day.
This isn’t paranoia: it’s the reality of the situation. What 2chan is threatening, and what the actual public opinion is showing, are two totally different things. Ignoring reality, is not going to prevent it from happening.
While I don’t disagree with you, I wonder what those UN warnings you linked have to do with fictional H material. they just talk about Junior Idols and less regulated real CP, not H.
Edot: the Interpol link just lists the laws in japan as of 2006, hardly relevant.
Anyway, I still think this will just whether over like a lot of things, there have been MANY attempts to ban loli in Japan, however none of them passed. While I think this won’t have any long-term effect, it will definitely take a while before things will be safe again. 
It was meant as a starting point. Narg isn’t going to feed you everything from the bowl. 
But here… I’ll give you another one: http://uk.reuters.com/article/internetN … 11?sp=true
UNICEF has made several judgments against Japan in the last 3 years. There are third world nations in Africa, that have earned less: equating Japan is worst than them on the political stage. Japan gets compared to Russia of all nations…
Exactly the point. You only identified what it is - not why it’s there. Interpol has been noting the Japanese laws have not significantly changed since early 1999: which is in total contrast to the “image” Japan wants to project, that it’s making changes. Essentially it’s proof Japan is feeding bull to the world at large - and thus puts more international pressure on Japan. Totally relevant. You’re only thinking like an eroger: not a politician or activist. Do a comparison of Japan’s laws on the matter, to the US or UK entries: you can see how “flimsy” Japan’s attention to detail is… thus the loopholes (which are going to be under fire). If you do a bit of poking, Interpol had to provide a translation of the text material: Japan has (unsurprisingly), never submitted an official translation of their own.
Combined with the repetitive UNICEF reports: it’s obvious Japan has changed nothing, despite saying they will. Essentially they’ve lied to the world community, and the world community is taking note of that. As I pointed out before: not a pretty picture we’re working with here. More ammo for the opposition. I’m waiting to see what Seiko Noda says about this. I’m sure she’ll give her agenda on the matter after June 2nd.
On a side note: it frightens me how so many are doing the Ostrich thing. Sticking our heads in the ground isn’t making the problem go away, or doing anything to support our cause. In case you didn’t notice, one of Japan’s closest neighbors just banned lolicon last month.
Of course, considering the fact that in the US we lock up 14-year-olds for taking pictures of themselves, Is the US really a place that should lecture others on child welfare?
And UNICEF, they’re REALLY just trying to make it seem like their doing something without spending money. They can’t really help starving children in third-world countries, no, that would cost money, they have to harass other countries who don’t share the same views.
I don’t think many countries listen to the UN much, particularly when it is basically trying to enforce a world government by claiming that one country doesn’t do what another country does and that all countries should share the exact same beliefs.
I think things might change after a while, but it will take a long time…
Anyway, what is there we can do about it? Most of us here don’t live in Japan. So its not hiding, it’s just that we can’t really do anything.
So the UN and Interpol are focusing on getting rid of eroge, such an important issue in the world compared to terrorism, drug and human trafficking, North Korea testing nuclear weapons, continual war in the Middle East, global warming, and all that other minor stuff. Yes these people are such hard workers… :roll:
And let’s not ignore this feminist group that made it all possible, ignoring facts like the crime of rape will still happen, there’s plenty of countries in the world where it’s still allowed to stone a woman to death either for being suspected of adultery or for having been raped, and also many where female genital mutilation is still very much in practice and encouraged. Yes, they’ve made such a breakthrough for women everywhere :x
Okay all sarcasm aside, I still think that whatever law ends up passed won’t be very effective in the long run. Why? Because too many people will still want eroge. As a result this law could very well end up like Prohibition in the US. Back when it was being passed a number of people supported it, but it ultimately failed since basically too many people wanted alcohol and they’d get it by whatever means they could, which made a quite a few crime groups rich (got to admit it would be interesting to see what game would be the result if the yakuza tried making eroge), and it was very expensive to enforce Prohibition itself.
Heck even the supporters of Prohibition admitted its failure after it ended like this one:
“When Prohibition was introduced, I hoped that it would be widely supported by public opinion and the day would soon come when the evil effects of alcohol would be recognized. I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasy has replaced the saloon; a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before.”
On a side note, like how we find this banning law to be ridiculous, there were people who found the idea of Prohibition ridiculous, like G.K. Chesterton in his essay “Government and the Rights of Man” where he says this:
"I could never see why a man who is not free to open his mouth to drink should be free to open it to talk. Talking does far more direct harm to other people. The village suffers less directly from the village drunkard than it might from the village tale bearer, or the village tub-thumper, or the village villain who seduces the village maiden. These and twenty other types of evil are done simply by talking; it is certain that a vast amount of evil would be prevented if we all wore gags. And the answer is not to deny that slander is a social poison, or seduction a spiritual murder. The answer is that, unless a man is allowed to talk, he might as well be a chimpanzee who is only able to chatter. In other words, if a man loses the responsibility for these rudimentary functions and forms of freedom, he loses not only his citizenship, but his manhood. "
Here’s the link to the rest of the essay, if you’re curious:
http://chesterton.org/gkc/Distributist/ … essay.html
Well I do hope you’re all right… I’m a self admit pessimist, so maybe I’m just being too negative. I’m mainly concerned we’re doing too much “it will pass” thinking. The Romans used to do the same thing about roving barbarian armies.
We ended up getting Baldo. 
Well, truthfully, there’s not much else we CAN do for a country we don’t live in. So we just have to HOPE this passes over.
stepping in for just a tad.
you can guess from my avatar that i am not that much into rape or loli, so as a gamer this is not really affecting me too much
i might be repeating stuff that others may have mentioned already (i apologize for this) but here’s my take:
the fact that the companies are self-regulating and self-volunteering to stop sales of games in question is, in my opinion, a good thing. self-regulation is always better than government intervention. it’s just like the regulating entites that put those shiny 18+ stickers on our eroges and porn: they are more or less a private entity. the last thing you want is government intervention which will for sure be harsher and cruel, because it will be controlled by a bunch of people who do not understand or appreciate eroge/porn (aka politicians).
anyhow, given that the companies are acting on their own (and in good faith), i think this will die down eventually as long as there are no lolicon sparks that may trigger another uprising…and because of this, if we do happen to live in japan, i think its better to just stay put and not do anything and just let it pass
on a slightly related note, it also kinda relates to the fact that despite the massive attendence record, discipline and behavior at comiket is, for the most part, pretty good compared to the crazy conventions we have here. it’s the same deal in my opinion. if something bad happens (like someone getting stepped on to death in an otaku stampede), i’d bet that the media coverage will be so bad that comiket will be forced/pressured to shut down for good
and another thing about the UN/UNICEF deal…i was aware of this news long ago and was discussing it with other japanese friends. they pointed out that the japanese group that are voicing against lolicon has, in fact, nothing to do with UN officially. i have lost the references since its long ago, but for the curious and japanese-literate ones, go search for japanese news sites that report this japanese-UN-group-denounces-loli news, copy and paste the entity name in japanese kanji, and look the group up in wikipedia japan…you will find out that the group is not really part of UN, at least not officially
Why is the TBS news link in the article broken all of a sudden? Seriously, this is fresh news–Why’d TBS take it down all of a sudden?
On another note, if the UNICEF group isn’t even officially part of or representative of the UN, doesn’t that make the whole UN vs. Japan thing Narg was spewing a load of hot air?
Also, I’d like to point out that this “ban” isn’t like the mosaic law where it was enacted by the diet. It’s just a decision made by the EOCS ratings board to not rate games that have rape or violent content–The Japanese government had no real bearing to what happened here. If a company wanted to release a rape eroge, then they can easily go to the CSA for approval.
With a world-wide recession and NK nuclear tests, trivial issues (to the general public anyway) like these usually don’t get traction politically.