Rape games will be banned in Japan

Visual Novel Community Visual Novel Talk
#161

The rape scenes in Eien no Aselia are meant to be psychologically disturbing, and are absolutely part of the plot. They’re SUPPOSED to creep you out massively. If you don’t, you’re the wrong person for the game.

It’s not hard at all. In fact, pretty much all of the otome games I’ve played are devoid of rape. Note that having a female heroine doesn’t make it an otome game - most of the non-otome games with female heroines DO contain rape (MOON., Extravaganza, Gun-Katana etc.) but certainly not all of them (Don-chan doesn’t).

That’s a fallacy. Yes, it’s perfectly possible to tell a good story (Eien no Aselia isn’t exactly a pure ‘romance’ story though, but that aside) without rape. It’s possible to tell a good story without H scenes at all. Does that mean we shouldn’t have H scenes in games? The point is that the rape scenes are used in such a way that they ADD to Eien no Aselia’s plot. They add to Rasen Kairou’s plot. The games would be WORSE without them. Yes, they would still be extremely good. But they still wouldn’t be as good - which is the whole point. There’s no reason to restrict this stuff.

Yes, that is true, but offscreen wouldn’t be as horrifying. Most of the rape scenes in these games only use 1 CG or so. Besides, my point is that the only sane way of going below 20% for either game is to add a whole heap of pure love H scenes, and I don’t think anyone would disagree that adding extra scenes the game doesn’t need would hurt it. That would be especially true for Rasen Kairou where throwing in more love H scenes would stand out like a sore thumb, but would also stand out in Eien no Aselia because every H scene - every single one - is there for a reason. The existing pure love H scenes are not out of place at all.

It’s not that the scenes are necessary, but they are there for a reason. I highly doubt the scenario writers particularly get off on the things, the way they are written. In any case, Eien no Aselia would not be the same game without them. It would still be an extremely good game, but it wouldn’t be as good if you changed anything about it - either adding more pure love H scenes or removing the rape scenes. Or even unbalancing the CG count.

BS. Rape can’t NOT be part of the plot. Imagine throwing a random rape scene into Kanon or AIR. Rape is always a very significant event in any game that ISN’T a rape game - it’s traumatising for the poor heroine involved, it’s traumatising for everyone close to the heroine etc. If the game in question is a rape game, it’s just par for the course. You could remove one or five of the rape training scenes without that really changing much. Doesn’t matter how many non-rape H scenes you throw in after, either, it’s still a rape game.

Pure love H scenes often AREN’T that significant in a pure love plot. You could remove 2-3 H scenes from AIR and people wouldn’t even blink. You could remove almost all of them and it would essentially be the same gane. Heck, the people who wrote the damn games went and said that the H scenes weren’t necessary.

Loved Eien no Aselia. HATED Seinarukana. I wish Seinarukana didn’t exist. The story, the writing etc. is a pathetic mockery of the original game. It doesn’t deserve the ‘The Spirit of Eternity Sword’ subtitle.

Note that Seinarukana is probably a fine game in its own right, but it’s called ‘Seinarukana: The Spirit of Eternity Sword’, and having that title attached to a game not worthy of the original is an unforgivable sin.

#162

Last I checked, rape games weren’t illegal in Japan. This isn’t about legal fights (yet); it’s about perception and reputation. Stores selling H-games don’t want to be carrying rape games for the same reason Wal-Mart doesn’t want to be selling porn: it tarnishes their image. They believe that offended customers will take their business elsewhere. These stores rely on CSA and EOCS to lend their business a degree of reputability by restricting game content to acceptable societal norms. Society’s standard of reputability has changed however, so the stores are demanding that CSA and EOCS bring their regulations back in line with societal standards.

#163

Your point makes a lot of sense to me, yet just because something isn’t illegal, doesn’t mean prosecutors can’t punish you for it. Depiction of extreme sex isn’t illegal, but depiction of obscenity is. Thus if you get an extreme sex case to become an obscenity case, you’re now in the realm of illegality.

Just like the US and Australia, facing an obscenity battle in Japan is a losing prospect: http://www.asahi.com/english/nation/TKY … 40185.html

It doesn’t have to be the Law: just which laws they choose to interpret against you.

EDIT
On another token: just because Walmart doesn’t want to sell porn, doesn’t mean porn isn’t profitable. Walmart calls itself a “familty store” and holds itself to “wholesome American values” (i.e. G-rated capitalism). However I’m willing to bet there’s more porn shops in New York City, than there are Walmarts.

Also I don’t see how “customers will take their business elsewhere”, because an eroge store is selling rape games, seeing as how the vast majority of eroge fans on 2chan and the like, are disappointed with these turn of events (censorship is censorship). What customers did they turn away? It’s not like the common department stores in Japan, sold eroge anyways.

#164

And I’m not saying they shouldn’t be there, or that there shouldn’t be dark games, but if you have big important disturbing rape scenes in your game, it’s not that far off the mark to call it a rape-themed game, surely?

The original quote I was responding to was implying that by limiting the amount of rape we’d be forced to have games with no stories. That was what I was objecting to.

I can’t really comment on your particular examples because a) I haven’t played them and b) They already exist. They’re done. Hypothesizing crazy changes to them now would obviously mess them up. It’s much easier to make a good story with limitations if you know your limits to begin with than to try and shoehorn them in later. :slight_smile:

Not really. While it’s been a while since I played them, ISTR Tokimeki Check-In, Critical Point, and Little My Maid all having fairly stupid rape encounters that could be rewritten without doing much to the plot.

As for offscreen rape being less horrifying, well, that depends on the circumstances. Suggestion done well can be far more horrible than explicit detail. Going into detail turns it into something porny, or even something humorous if it happens a lot. (There she goes, getting raped again…) Obviously when you want to do scenes where the PC is conflicted about being aroused by something bad happening, you need to present the scene in a way that is both horrifying and arousing. But if it’s just about bad things happening to the heroine and causing her to be traumatised, letting the viewer imagine can allow them to come up with even more dreadful things without being distracted by ‘Nice tits’.

You could start a new fetish of blackscreen rapescenes, where a whole scene goes by with no pictures, just the sound of her screams. (I know DLsite sells some sound-only scenes… I don’t know if anyone tries doing this experience within a game.)

#165

I think what papillon is getting at here is this: it’s not rape itself that’s the problem; it’s rape being portrayed for the sexual gratification of the viewer. You can have all the trauma and angst without actively trying to get a rise out of the viewer. For example, often a rape scene is witnessed by a third party. A black screen with voices and the stunned witness’s thoughts/reaction would get the point across as well as a CG and a detailed description of a penis going in and out of a vagina (which often seems oddly out of place). If you are going to show a CG, there’s not necessarily a reason for it to be explicit if you’re not trying to get a rise out of the viewer. And if it is, that’s fine, because you can still have 1/5 of the game’s CG show explicit rape. The point is there’s devices to get the impact of rape across without catering to the rape fetish.

It’s not a bad argument…but why? What is forcibly suppressing the rape fetish supposed to accomplish? Instead of refusing to rate rape games, why not just adapt a scale along the lines of the ESRB? Example: pure love only, minimally graphic rape, rape combined with disturbing themes, and full-blown rape game. Then the stores could individually decide what they’re willing to stock.

#166

I don’t have any specific knowledge of Japanese obscenity laws, but I can say this. The American Protect Act was drafted specifically to use obscenity laws to prosecute virtual pornography. I don’t believe these cases using obscenity law to prosecute (nonambiguous) virtual pornography existed until the Protect Act was passed. Obscenity law always seemed to me like the “hail mary” of criminal law–it’s something you try when all else fails, and it hardly ever works because it’s so hard to pull off. The Protect Act seems to have somehow exploited some loopholes in obscenity law to disastrous effect, however.

#167

That’s because virtual pornography didn’t exist in such magnitude until then. You can’t pass laws against having too many anti-matter engines, when there aren’t any anti-matter engines around.

Most laws - American or not - are made in reaction to something.

Too many gun crimes? Gun bans. Too many children dying from fluorine in candy? Ban fluorine in candy. Porn on the Internet is destroying American values? Ban porn on the Internet.

That’s how these people are thinking. It’s not exclusive to North America.

#168

Right, but your point seemed to be that obscenity laws were enough to prosecute a perceived crime (in this case, rape games and/or lolicon) all by themselves. Virtual pornography obviously existed in enough of a magnitude prior to the Protect Act being passed that it caused a new bill to be passed about it. Why pass a new law if it current laws are sufficient to cover it in full? Nevermind, don’t answer that. Anyway, societal problem → legislative action takes time, time enough for court cases to arise and probably finish if indeed, as you say, obscenity laws were strong enough to prosecute these cases to begin with.

That was probably badly phrased on my part. Perhaps a better way to say it would be “offensive items are bad for business.” Reputation is an odd thing in that its effects aren’t necessarily rational. In fact, it’s more of an intuitive concept than a rational one–the same thinking that connects smiling actors, pretty colors, and appealing words with a superior product worthy of your purchase. A potential customer might avoid a shady store for its reputation of shadiness–even if it was labeled shady because it carries items he might be interested in. Maybe he doesn’t want to be seen entering a store that’s considered shady (even otaku have an image to maintain!) I’m told that wearing typical (for Americans) anime fan items when hanging out with casual friends will get you negatively labeled as a silly otaku–even by other (closet) anime fans! In addition to direct effects on sales, pressure from other sides could influence stores as well. Perhaps the landlords from whom they’re renting space will kick them out if they get too many complaints. Perhaps they’re just tired of listening to the uber-feminists that are constantly hounding them!

#169

And they are: that’s why people are getting convicted under them.

If the vast majority of people find the fictional depiction of rape as immoral and obscene, then when you face a jury, the vast majority will find you guilty of violating obscenity laws. That’s how the court system works. Which is why obscenity cases with something as extreme as rape eroge, is not a fun prospect.

Question: What is obscenity?

Answer: I know it when I see it…

Like it or not: that’s the Law. In America, the issue is the entire ambiguity of that (the Miller Test didn’t really change the core of that argument, just narrow it).

Also if you check here and there, many obscenity laws haven’t changed in decades. Many serious efforts to change them, usually fall into limbo, get thrown out, or simply give up. That recent Iowa Lolicon case for example… he was convicted for obscenity (specifically transportation and possession) and not pedophilia charges (which were thrown out as unconstitutional).

#170

Did you ever watch the movie called “Seven”? If you did, wouldn’t you agree that the way the sins were done were pretty graphic? Yet, aren’t they important and, in fact, graphic because of their importance and meaning? Do you think that “Seven” would have given such an impact if the scenes weren’t in the movie?
It’s should be an answer to your question.
In Aselia, the main hero leads a constant fight against darkness, a bit like Luke in Star Wars. He’s promised power, and more power, escape from his problems, etc. if he gives to that darkness, that is at the same time the source of power he needs in order to protect the people about whom he cares. As the hero, you, the player, hears, reads, and feels this constant attraction to power, and I’m sure more than one have thought, at least once, “Hey, he’s an idiot, I’m sure losing himself ONCE in his anger, accepting Motome’s (to simply, let’s say it’s the name of the source of darkness) offer for more wouldn’t be SO bad!”
The dark route exists for that reason. In the dark route, Yuuto lets himself possessed by the darkness, sometimes by merely stop fighting its constant urge to use it. The very meaning of the dark route is to see how HORRIBLE a person Yuuto becomes, and how much he ends hurting everyone about whom he (and the player as well, because all the other characters [including the minor ones, the Minor Spirits, who became so popular, a sequel was made about them] are wonderful ones --including the villains) cares, doing to them horrible things. Are there a lot of rapes in this dark route? Yes, plenty, and I feel their purpose is rather to disgust the player than anything. One of my friends started the route, but never completed it, being disgusted by what happened to the girls there; OTOH, it gave him the will to play the game without ever giving to Motome, because he wanted to avoid at all cost the dark route.

High-fives Lancer-X
Glad to see someone sharing my POV… though I recall we had such a discussion in the Gemot, didn’t we?

#171

That’s probably true. I haven’t played them, but probably true. I forgot to add a crucial part to that point, though - in any plot-heavy game. Yeah, plenty of things (like that match girl game by GAIA) treat rape as a total joke and could have the scenes removed entirely or added to without really changing the game much, and I don’t care so much about those =P

To lend this a bit of context, sex - at least, sex between spirits in the Aselia world is sort of similar to the same thing between magicians in Fate/stay Night - mana transfer! Only Eien no Aselia actually did it right, and it doesn’t feel like a pathetic excuse for H scenes - it all feels very real.

Raping a spirit is stealing its mana, basically.

#172

Actually you can. There is a ban on being able to copyright or trademark human clones. As far as we can tell, there have never been any human clones.

Depends on the age group and the item. Me and my friend carry around anime handbags for carrying papers, books and whatnot. His is Inuyasha and mine is Chobits (both of which in the US anime community are considered somewhat more girl-oriented shows). I don’t think most people gives it a second thought. I wore by Urahara hat out a couple times (mostly on Sunny days as I have sensitive eyes and don’t like ballcaps or shades as i have glasses (don’t care for clipons either and am too poor for light-sensitive ones). I had a couple people give me looks, but no one who knew the show. Most are people walking down the street I could care less about.

#173

I was actually specifically talking about Japan (sorry for the confusion). Americans are pretty tolerant of displays of individuality. Japanese…maybe not as much. Again, based on hearsay, but it’s pretty consistent with current sociological models: the US is a strong individualist nation, while Japan is collectivist. By the way, source on that bit of hearsay was bishounen_blue, a familiar name for those that’ve been hanging around here a while.

This brings to mind a scene from Toradora I found interesting: the reaction to Kitamura bleaching his hair blonde. In America that’s so commonplace it wouldn’t create a stir at all in a high school, even for someone like a student council president. In Toradora’s Japan it was absolutely shocking, to the point he got dragged away by a teacher.

#174

I don’t get why you guys are so hung up on the 20% thing. I still hold that this part is much more dangerous:

I ask you all again: Would the offender be doing it if he wasn’t getting something out of it?

#175

You seem to be implying that the decision to commit rape is a rational one (where the offender weighs overall pros and cons of the decision and acts in a way he sees as having the most advantageous long-term consequences), which may be true in many fantasy situations but is probably rarely true in real life, or in games trying to portray rape in a realistic manner.

Alternatively, you’re simply defining “one’s best interests” as the way a person acts–i.e., a person always acts in their best interests, so however they acted must’ve been what they perceived to be in their best interests at the time. In that case, I think you’re missing the point. When they talk about censoring rape where the offender gets something out of it, they mean the offender sees long-term objective benefit (i.e., the decision might be deemed rational in hindsight), not simply sexual or psychological gratification. They’d likely also find rape that goes unpunished (legally or otherwise) offensive. Examples of rape leading to objective benefit: an employee rapes his boss, dominating her and using it as leverage for promotion. A fighter in a tournament assaults and rapes his opponent before the match; completely distracted and humiliated, she is easily defeated by him during the match. The main idea throughout is that not only is justice not served, but rape leads to further injustice. This kind of paradigm inspires a powerful revulsion in people; link that together with another revolting concept like rape, and it’s not terribly difficult to convince people that this train of thought should be censored out of existence.

Therefore my short answer is: yes, usually in fact.

#176

That ban was made AFTER they were able to successfully clone organisms. The law was then updated again, when they started cloning Dolly and the like. The laws were still made in reaction. You can’t realistically ban something, you’re not aware of… unless you’re a dictatorship or trying to emulate Big Brother.

Again: antimatter is dangerous. But there’s no law banning an antimatter engine, simply because there isn’t one and because no one knows what danger there’s to ban in the first place. When a working prototype is around? Sure. Then lobbies and protectionist have something to work with. You can ban an anti-matter bomb, because then it falls under the laws that outlaw bombs, but not antimatter as an energy source.

There’s nothing that says I can’t make antimatter in my basement… generally because people think it’s impossible. If I was successful in making it… or if when trying to make it, I destroy half the city? You can bet your bippy, there will be laws that specifically outlaw making antimatter in your basement. :stuck_out_tongue:

Japanese otaku have their social problems, but they generally aren’t “ashamed” to enter an eroge store in Akihabara, because that’s not anything embarrassing for them. It’s like saying a D&D player would be embarrassed to enter an RPG store, because society looks down on D&D players. Can it happen? Sure. Does it happen enough to put RPG stores out of business? Please.

Some men are embarrassed to buy condoms in a drug store, when a woman is working the counter. They’ll figure out a way to get condoms another way: visit another drug store, order on line, find another cashier, etc. It doesn’t stop them from getting condoms sooner or later… nor does it negatively impact the condom industry as a whole. That’s a personal issue with individual people: not the norm within all condom buyers.

In fact most shoppers I’ve spoken with in an eroge store, are happy to discuss their favorite story or titles with me. Considering that I’m an obvious foreigner, there isn’t any shyness in it. There are just some hobbies people just don’t openly talk about, with others who don’t share the same hobby. Hardcore porn is one of them. Then again: talking about serious medical conditions are done the same way… so it’s not unusual behavior. Just professional prudence.

Now compare that to games that glorify murder (many FPS), brutal world conquest (many strategy games), immoral manipulation of a person’s everyday life (life simulators), expending hundreds of lives to achieve a relatively trivial objective (RTS), overt ignorance of the negatives in commercialization (dressup games), etc, etc, etc.

The only difference between these and rape games, is that rape games are an easier target for censors to go after. The Western world ¬ñ thanks to the prominence of Judaic based religion ¬ñ also systematically suppress sexual imagery and imagination. The idea that a flood of fictional rape, will suddenly create a massive flood of actual rape, completely singles it out from the overwhelming flood of other ideology that society considers “acceptable” in a legal context. Not to mention is unproven and mostly unlikely: there’s a larger chance the Large Hadron Collider will kill us all.

For example: if a man rapes his next door neighbor, and that man’s home is searched, with the police finding a horde of fictional rape movies, rape games, and rape novels… there’s going to be a massive push to ban rape in America.

Now if an ultra radical anti-Semite, goes into a Holocaust museum and starts randomly killing people, and that man’s home is searched with the police finding a horde of Holocaust denial material, pro-NAZI teachings, an Internet cache of visiting racist hate sites and posting violent ideas… well… they can’t ban racism ¬ñ despite all the obvious dangers it possess - because that’s protected under the Constitution.

Good thing neither of them have happened… oh… wait…

No one says rape is not bad. We generally accept rape is bad. The issue is weather or not you can punish people for thinking about rape, drawing rape, talking about rape, etc. Just like no one says racism is not bad. We generally accept racism is bad. However you can teach racism, preach racism, imagine a world ruled by a racist society, etc. The difference lies that racism is not punished until you overtly perform racism on another person - because you can’t punish people for something they haven’t done yet.[color=red]*[/color] Thinking or finding pleasure in something fictional (because racism is often fictional) is not a crime.

[color=red]*[/color] Disclaimer: Doesn’t apply to foreign nationals being held under military detention in America controlled Cuba. :roll:

#177

speaking of society, overreaction, and stupid moral panics:

http://reason.com/news/show/134038.html

#178

I think #9 on this list is recieving a European revival:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/06/1 … -ban-loli/

Edit: (completely off topic, but the commentors on sankaku do have a point…that smile of hers does kind of remind you of Nicholson’s Joker)

#179

Well, #9 is exactly the point of the current thread. Of course “Time was right about the increase in production and availability of pornography in the 1970s, it was just wrong about the effects. Two years after this cover appeared, the number of reported rapes in the U.S. began a 30-year free-fall, a period over which pornography became increasingly easier to obtain. Today, porn is more abundant and ubiquitous than ever, while incidence of rape in the U.S. is at its lowest rate since the government started keeping statistics.” was also the conclusion people who made searchers about the matter found, as Narg and I posted.

#180

I’m not saying that rape is necessarily a rational decision. Nor am I saying that a person always acts in a manner they perceive to be in their best interest. I’m simply saying that given the broad wording, sexual or psychological gratification can be interpreted as “getting something out of it”. After all, you wouldn’t say that an illicit drug user isn’t getting anything out of using a drug because he isn’t getting anything more than physical and psychological gratification out of it. This example also demonstrates a decision that isn’t rational and is against best interests, as they know it is bad for them, but they’re addicted.