Rape in Bishoujo Games

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#41

On what basis do you feel so comfortable making this statement? Where is your data? Please provide a citation to back up this assertion. This flies in the face of accepted knowledge. Car accidents can cause PTSD. An event can be traumatic if it is unexpected, unanticipated, and uncontrollable. Nothing about your scenario alters that basic formula (unless you are going to claim you said “and there’s no mental scarring”, but in that case you’re using circular reasoning, e.g. “if there is no mental scarring, we can prove there’s no mental scarring”)

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/emotional_psychological_trauma.htm

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32366

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/post-traumatic-stress-disorder/DS00246

http://www.aafp.org/afp/990800ap/524.html

Here’s my data. I think you’re wrong, and I found all this with ten minutes of Google searching. I’m sure if I spent hours looking, I could find your exact scenario addressed. But I don’t have to do that, because you’re the one who made the statement so it’s your job to provide the reasoning behind it.

I have noticed nothing of the sort. I have noticed you claiming, without evidence, to know what you are talking about. Anyone can do that, and in fact nut jobs claim to be experts all the time. You know who Jack Thompson is, right?

Put up or shut up.

[Edit: proper use of nested quotes. Also clarified]

[ 10-04-2006, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Nandemonai ]

#42

What facts? All we have is unsupported statements – to be fair, both from papillon, and from you. Neither one of you has backed anything up. Yet somehow I imagine you would complain if I called you an ignoramus.

#43

Wait? It takes you two hours? I can usually do 500 word essay in under 1.

But then again, i have been known to produce a high quality (although not pristine quality) 20-page essay in under 6 hours.

–

As to whether Scipoten is right or not, I can’t say. I’m more inclided to believe Scipoten though. The incidents Nandemonai listed seem to be specifically when there is absoltely no control and the incident is unexpected.

I do know someone i could ask, who has a degree in psychology, but i don’t feel comfortable asking them to clarrify this.

#44

It doesn’t even really matter all that much if I’m 100% correct. I’m no psychologist, but I did take a few courses on it in college; his descriptions sound off, but I could be wrong.

I called him on it because odds are pretty good he isn’t actually a psychologist, and even if he is he’s probably not actually an expert on this particular topic. Therefore to not only make the statement he made, but also call people ignorant for disagreeing with him, is more or less the pot calling the kettle black.

#45

Well however much a full page is. I also don’t do outlines, bullets, or drafts. I just write one time from scratch and sumbit it.

Here is my citation:

I am basing my assumptions on the fact that the extreme physical pain that is pivotal for the shattering of one’s mind associated with rape is absent. Guilt? Yes. PTSD? Possibly since literally anything can cause it. Complete segmentation and total mental breakdown? No. PTSD isn’t the only consequence of rape. Paranoia, OCD, Schizophrenia, and a host of other problems may arise from one single act. Physical pain is required to instill this level of damage. Rape isn’t the only thing that can do this, but it is by far the quickest. If a person undergoes torture, the effects can be the same, even worse depending on the torture used. But rape can do in minutes what torture does in days or weeks.

No, I’m not a psychologist, but my mother is and she raised me around psychology and taught me about it. About half of my family has been raped as some point in their life (male and female), including my own mother, and about one third of my friends. I have done a lot of research on rape and its effects. This is why my senario was so confusing to me the first time I saw it in a b-game; I never heard of such a thing. I also have a Harvard Medical Textbook that I lived out of for a while. I might not be able to perform brain surgery, but I can tell you the difference between a myleography and a myringotomy.

Papilon said that rape is merely a physical injury. That is a whopper of an ignorant statement if I have ever heard one. I don’t know what to say about those who agreed with him other than think they just jumped on board with anything that had negative connotations toward rape. I was only calling papilon ignorant, not anyone else, and even then, only with regard to the link between physical and mental wounds, not because he disagreed with me. He said that rape is only a physical injury and that there is little mental injury, yet he called me “screwed up” because I know rape goes WAY beyond just physical injury. “Ignorant” was a kind word. I could have chosen a far, far stronger expression. But you see, there is a difference between “ignorant” and “unintelligent”. Intelligence is inborn and cannot be changed, but knowledge is learned and is changing constantly. Ignorance is simply a lack of information. For example, I myself am ignorant (and thus qualify for the title “ignoramus”) on the religious customs of the Inuit tribes of northern Canada. If I educate myself on their customs, I cease to be ignorant in their ways, also removing the title “ignoramus” from myself. Unintelligent means you just don’t get it nor will you ever understand it even if someone tried to beat it into your head with a 2x4.

Let’s get gack to the disccussion on rape in bishoujo games.

#46

Please get one thing straight (and thus become regarding the regulras of this BBS less of an ignoramus yourself :frowning:

[ 10-05-2006, 04:57 AM: Message edited by: Unicorn ]

#47

Oh I didn’t know that. scratches head Oops. I would have been a bit more gentle in my reproof had I known papillon was a “she.” I hope I didn’t permanently ostracize her from me.

All this talk about rape in the real world is getting depressing, and this arguement over what is or isn’t rape/pseudo-rape is really becoming a bore.

#48

Hey! I’m actually getting knowledge about psychology…It might be useful for me in the near future if not soon…

I don’t know…if I should thank you or not…
Anyway…

Thanks…I’ve observed alot today… :slight_smile:

#49

I don’t blame you. The lines have greatly blurred and it gets confusing. Even now, that pseudo-rape (I’m starting to get sick of typing the word “rape”) scenario still eludes me as to its classification.

#50

I wasn’t saying rape is merely a physical injury (only that an ASPECT of it is. The use of the word “simple” was a clue.) In fact, that was precisely what I was objecting to in your original post. K? You appeared to be saying that if severe physical injury was not received, it was not a rape.

As I said in my post, it was highly unclear whether you meant:

“I can enjoy a fantasy scene of questionable consensuality as long as brutal physical force isn’t used.”

or

“If a real woman is not injured in an assault, she wasn’t really raped.”

MANY of us will agree with the first statement. (And I agree that it gets confusing what to call it sometimes, particularly in silly fantasy stories where the victim ends up liking it and is HAPPY about it afterwards. That’s why in my reviews of porn I started using the term “questionable consensuality” and let that cover the whole category) But not all of us were sure that the first statement was actually what you meant.

Now, if by “mental scarring” you ONLY meant PTSD, you could have clarified that from the beginning. :slight_smile: I can’t speak too much about PTSD because it honestly isn’t my area of expertise, I don’t know anyone who suffers from it (who’s told me about it, anyway). I know it can be caused by a lot of things - I expect car accidents have done it, I know that surgery can do it under weird circumstances - but I don’t know a huge amount about it. I’ll happily admit that.

In more colloquial usage, ‘mental scarring’ refers more to permanent changes in psyche/personality/behavior as a result of a traumatic incident. In such usage, saying that an act can’t cause any mental scars implies that it is not upsetting and should be really easy to get over. It appeared that you were saying that a victim would not be in any way traumatised by the scenario you described, which was highly offensive.

If you have studied on the subject, I’m sure you’re aware that there are an awful lot of sexual assaults that do not involve much in the way of physical injury. They’re still victims and what was done to them was still wrong. THAT’S the only thing I was trying to get across, because it appeared that you were saying otherwise. From the number of people who posted after me, you can see that I was NOT the only one who thought that’s what you were saying. :slight_smile:

#51

:roll: People really need to stop treating females differently. It’s not fair. Both genders are human beings.

I guess this is a left-over from the days where females were considered inferior.

#52

To papillon: Hmm… I apologize for not being clear. When I start posting on very large subjects, I often become very detailed in some areas but unintentionaly neglect others. I’ll work on smoothing out my writing more.

What do you mean by “simple” violent-rape-by-a-stranger? In fantasy it may get confusing, but in reality, a rape is a rape, well, if my scenario really happened I would call it pseudo-rape, which would not be AS traumatizing as “standard” rape, but still a rape, just in a diffrent form. (This is so difficult to express…)

Nope. Men tend to be more dense, at least in my experience, and I myself am a guy. I only need to say something once or twice and a woman will understand me, but guys – such repitition… I say the same thing over… and over… and over… and over… And most of the time they will attack me even if they have little or knowledge on the subject. So I barb my statements and become grating and rough as that seems to be the only thing that gets through.

[ 10-05-2006, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Scipoten ]

#53

What, stereotypes now? We both know that both genders have a lot of different personalities.

#54

Another self-quote:

…

…and over… and over… and over…

Not all men are like that, but I have found that many are. There are exceptions, however. For example, one must tell me something only once or twice and I understand, otherwise I will ask. I am not completely siding with women, well maybe I am to a certain degree. I know there are advantages/benefits and disadvantages/problems with both sexes, but when it comes to conversation, I must treat one different than the other if it is necessary.

#55

People should stop discriminating against any particular subgroup.

Well, no, I should be more specific. We discriminate against criminals, for example.

This is a bit of a US-centric point of view, so please don’t shoot me (especially in a we’re-all-the-same post!), but …

“We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights …”

We haven’t even lived up to that in the US. Look at all the crap we did. And are doing. Slavery, genocide against the Native Americans, sexism (arguably present even in that line itself, as it does say “all men”), anti-communist paranoia, and today it’s not exactly a good time to be Muslim in the US. Or Mexican. Or poor.

If you ask me, the world would be better off if that line actually meant what it said …

#56

I think you were talking about something completely different than what she was responding to. She was speaking in the context of your “no mental scarring” scenario, and was questioning the idea that this would be less damaging than mere physical assault.

She was attempting to illustrate that she believed the scenario you described would be MORE mentally damaging than a wholly violent incident. I think you misunderstood this to mean she was saying violent rape wasn’t mentally scarring at all.

#57

I understood what she said. She said that a violent rape would be less damaging than “pseudo-rape” (when I use this term, I am refering to my scenario), and that violent rape is as easy to get over as being hit by a car because it was a physical injury. I am saying the exact opposite. The mind and the body work in tandem. For example, I seriously doubt anyone could work on quantum physics in the middle of a drunken state. The same goes for pain, pleasure, distractions, etc. Violent rape bombards the mind with a type of pain that is unlike any other, and the effects of it are similar to some of the mentally damaging aspects of torture. The type of physical pain necessary to break the mind to such an extent is absent, thus pseudo-rape is FAR less damaging than a violent rape.

#58

Souka…ne?

Please let Observe more…

And therefore, gain more knowledge!

#59

I think you and I share a lot in common…in fact very eerily too much…both from our personality and our those around us.

You’re not by, chance, a long lost twin. :stuck_out_tongue:

#60

Note though, that it means all men (in this example) are created equal, does not give any context that everyone stays equal.